McLennon | Page 5 | Fab Forum | The Beatles Bible

I’d be up for this kind of conversation! I enjoyed some of the stuff on https://www.heydullblog.com/ but they have decided to nix the topic, because there were some commenters making it tedious. (Fair enough, there were some very strident views).

I find the relationships of the four of them (but especially John and Paul) sort of tragically thrilling. They were such a fantastic combination of personalities, who went through completely unique experiences. I like to think I’d still be as interested if the tragedy wasn’t part of it, but I can’t ever know for sure. I have similar habits to yours I think — I’ve watched a bunch of mclennony YouTube compilations of clips, and I’m on my second watch through of “Understanding Lennon/McCartney” (the second episode is very different now, since a recent re-upload) but I don’t really want to read any purely imaginative stuff.

I never use Pinterest for anything. What’s there, photos?

Here are two of my favourite moments on YouTube of John and Paul (hopefully this new “clip” thing works):

https://www.youtube.com/clip/U…..BAZBkDJWde

https://www.youtube.com/clip/U…..Z50KVQskNF

I go back and watch them every Now And Then To be honest, I find it hard to imagine there was nothing sexual between them, whether or not they ever acted on it. The intimacy they had must have been so exciting, it’s hard to imagine it not being at least confusing.

I love speculating about what lyrics of John and Paul’s are aimed at each other. But I don’t have any people in my life who want to hear my theories

Most recent example: I’ve been trying to listen to more of John’s music (I’m more drawn to Paul’s), and I heard Bless You for the first time yesterday. I’m convinced he’s speaking to Paul (the lyrics include “wings” and “love is strange” — Love is Strange is a song on the Wings album Wild Life ). It’s comforting to think that in 1974 John might have been saying to Paul:

And remember though love is strange
Now and forever our love will remain

I 100% agree about MLH and his follow-up questions. He seems to often lead the conversation in exactly the wrong direction I have to say though, I agree with the AKOM ladies on the mic bit. It might have started as unconscious, but by the time he’s wagging his head from side to side and making noises ….

I’m *dead* curious about the moment where Paul leaves with MLH and John jokes “can we come?” There’s something about both Paul and MLH’s demeanors that suggest Paul has kind of collared MLH about something. Idle speculation: could it be that Paul wants to tell MLH to keep some stuff out of the movie? It reminds me of this great quote from MLH in this article

I wouldn’t particularly want to run into Paul McCartney in a dark alley, if he didn’t like me.

I’ve been thinking a lot about Paul and George’s relationship recently. George would have been my favourite Beatle until I saw Get Back , but I was honestly kind-of bowled over by Paul in the show. I was unprepared for his charisma and beauty! I found my empathy was with Paul in both of the major scenes of conflict between them (a: the one that looks like it immediately precedes George leaving, though it didn’t even happen on the same day, b: the India conversation). Paul is trying to be diplomatic in a way that I do in my life, so my instinct was “Paul is trying to ease the tension, but George is being obstinate”. But it occurred to me the other day that maybe after so many years in such close quarters, George experiences Paul’s diplomacy as manipulation. And maybe it kind of is? It’s given me a lot to think about wrt to my own life.

I’ve also been thinking about how George wanted Paul’s attention specifically. I’ve heard lots of quotes from George talking about how he felt connected to John after the Dentist’s Dinner Party. I think he felt rejected by Paul when Paul wouldn’t take LSD with them. There are also lots of times where he’ll mention in an interview that he and Paul were friends before Paul knew John. He tries to get Paul to engage on the lyrics to Something , and John joins in instead. More idle speculation: I wonder if George saw the way Paul and John worked together and wanted that for himself, with Paul. I doubt Paul could have given it to him even if he’d tried. But it’s heartbreaking to see Paul too preoccupied to listen to George properly. 

It’s also a shame, I think, that there’s no nod at all in the movie to the fact that George was having marital problems when he left the band. He’s happier in Apple, but it’s not just because of the changes they’ve agreed to, he’s also back with his wife!

I don’t get why Jackson cut so much of the work they did on George’s songs. It plays into the narrative that John and Paul “rejected” George’s songs, but they spent hours working on songs that ended up on All Things Must Pass . I’m not suggesting that it was George’s imagination that they might reject his songs, Paul at least definitely underrated him. Paul talks about George “finally” writing good songs on Abbey Road , but Taxman is easily in my top five Beatles songs. But they’re George’s songs, and he needs to fight for them to be played the way he wants, and included in the album.

There’s a cynical part of me that wonders if Peter Jackson is playing to the McLennonite market, rather than being sold on it himself. There have been a *lot* of comments on that aspect of Get Back , people are kind of thrilled by it (men as well as women). I know a certain amount of editorialising is unavoidable, but I’ve been disappointed with how much tweaking he’s clearly done. As you say, he really makes it look like that lunchtime conversation was just between the two of them. He *knows* it wasn’t, and it wouldn’t have been a high cost in either time or audience confusion to let it be obvious that it wasn’t. It’s especially annoying because he keeps saying how little editorialising he did.

I can see a couple of reasons why he’d cut so much of Yoko. He might have decided that it’s time for the pendulum to swing the other way a bit; she’s been this bogeywoman in popular culture for a long time, and he might feel that the only way to overcome that is to push the narrative too far in the other direction. He also definitely wanted to create a happy/uplifting product.

Yeah, the “wound” occupies a lot of my thoughts these days I don’t know if anyone knows, other than Paul, at this stage. Though it’s occurred to me that Jane Asher might

Oh this turned into a bit of an essay, sorry My brother-in-law sends me links to Beatles stuff and always jokes that it’s for my PhD

(I was half way through this post and my computer got rebooted so I had to start again)

None of the following is conclusive of anything, obviously. I have a tragic-romantic story in my head, and bias being what it is I tend to hear things that support that story, but I don’t hold it very tightly. So for what it’s worth here’s (a subset of) the songs I think might be about Paul and John’s relationship.

I’ll Get You (1963)

lyrics

I liked that slightly faggy way we sang. ‘Oh yeah, oh yeah,’ which was very distinctive, very Beatley.

Paul McCartney
Many Years From Now, Barry Miles

It’s possible that John only used the word ‘friend’ because it rhymed with ‘end’ …

If I Fell (1964)

lyrics

Another song where John imagines falling in love with someone, but there’s some barrier to him letting himself ….

The Night Before (1965)

lyrics

This could be about any on-again/off-again, mixed-signals, will-they/won’t-they relationship ….

Tell Me What You See (1965)

lyrics

Same

Norwegian Wood (1965)

lyrics

http://www.beatlesebooks.com/n…..egian-wood

’Norwegian Wood ’ was about an affair I was having. I was very careful and paranoid because I didn’t want my wife, Cyn, to know that there really was something going on outside the household. I’d always had some kind of affairs going, so I was trying to be sophisticated in writing about an affair, but in such a smokescreen way that you couldn’t tell. I can’t remember any specific woman it had to do with.

John Lennon

I’ve heard the audio of this clip (possibly in Anthology Revisited?) and to my mind John emphasises the word ‘woman’.

Peter Asher’s room, which was next to Paul’s room in the Asher house, was done up in Norwegian Wood (video clip of Barry Miles talking about it). It makes me wonder if there was a time John stayed over there hoping something might happen between him and Paul, and Paul was either oblivious or chickened out and pretended to be.

We Can Work It Out (1965)

lyrics

This feels like the same theme as “Hello Goodbye ” to me. A kind of push-me, pull-you, description of a repeated conversation that dances around the topic. It’s possible that ‘crime’ was only chosen as a rhyme for ‘time’ …

Here, There And Everywhere (1966)

lyrics

I know the pronoun in this song is ‘she’, but I wouldn’t put it past Paul to (consciously or unconsciously) change the pronoun. He wrote this sitting by John’s pool, waiting for him to get up, and it means a lot to him that John expressed a liking for the song. (Page about the song).

Hello, Goodbye (1967)

lyrics

Here’s that push-me, pull-you theme again. Whoever is saying ‘yes’ the other is saying ‘no’, as if there’s some barrier to both saying ‘yes’ at the same time, something they fear, even though they both want to say ‘yes’.

Baby You’re A Rich Man (1967)

lyrics

How does it feel to be
One of the beautiful people?
Tuned to a natural E
Happy to be that way
Now that you’ve found another key
What are you going to play?

This may be me over-interpreting (I mean, what in this thread isn’t ), but I can certainly imagine this being a lyric about sexual orientation. Somehow this song feels like it’s connected to You Never Give Me Your Money (though BYaRM was written first).

I Will (1969)

On January 13th, 1969, when Paul was being interviewed at Twickenham Studios during the recording of the “Let It Be ” film, the subject was broached about his and John’s recent strained collaboration partnership as a result of Yoko’s presence in his life. “It’s like, we did “I Will ,’” Paul relates, “We’re trying to get the last verse to ‘I Will ‘ and eventually I just ended up doing it, ’cause we couldn’t actually do it.” From this comment we can deduce that Paul requested John’s input in writing the lyrics for the final verse of “I Will ” but, because of him not being cooperative, Paul just finished the lyrics himself.

(from http://www.beatlesebooks.com/i-will)

The theme seems to switch mid-song to me. Since reading the story quoted above, I always imagine that Paul wanted to say to John “I will wait for you”, but couldn’t get his attention and changed direction

I’m So Tired (1968)

lyrics

I think “you” in this song is Paul, and John is expressing his (possibly paranoid, possibly justified) concern that Paul won’t take him seriously. Could Paul’s performance of the song during the Get Back sessions indicate that it was justified?

Oh! Darling (1969)

lyrics

I’m sure y’all are sick of me banging this drum, but Paul definitely says “oh Johnny” at around 1:42 in this song. In Get Back ep 2, around 2h46, Paul drunkenly calls John ‘darling’ (why yes I have been keeping notes ).

John Lennon : It’s like you and I are lovers

John and Paul (coyly mirror each other fiddling with their hair)

Two Of Us (1969)

lyrics

As you said @Savoy Truffle , maybe this is about Linda, but I don’t buy it at all. The lyrics only make sense as being about Paul and John, though pretty revisionist on Paul’s part, as John subtly points out with his “four of us” comment. The way they sing it in each other’s faces in episode 1 of Get Back . You’d have to feel sorry for George in that scene

Dig A Pony (1969)

lyrics

Everything has got to be just like you want it to

Paul had a reputation for perfectionism

Yes you can imitate everyone you know

Paul is (or at least was) an excellent mimic. (This is pointed out in the Understanding Lennon/McCartney series, where they have this song in the background while Paul is doing impressions of people).

Golden Slumbers (1969)

lyrics

A response to I’m So Tired ? The vocal performance on the The Long One on the Abbey Road (Super Deluxe Edition) makes me think this was a way more emotional piece for Paul than the standard “oh I just found it in a book” narrative.

You Never Give Me Your Money (1969)

lyrics

Here’s that will-they/won’t they thing again. “We try, and then one of us backs off”. The reprise of this in Carry That Weight (lyrics) is especially strong on that theme.

Alright, this has taken all day, so I’m going to put the Paul solo songs in a separate post. I’d love to hear some recommendations for John songs.

Savoy Truffle said

And then recently Pattie Harrison said “…I just think they really didn’t love each other….”

What an awful thing to say

And completely wrong, in my opinion. It’s (sadly) perfectly possible for brothers to get up one another’s noses so much they stop speaking, especially if they’ve been through trauma together. I think they loved one another, but couldn’t get over some shit. The fact that George died in one of Paul’s houses says something, in my opinion. They never managed to be close again, as far as I know, but there was an unbroken bond.

 
So, when I watched Get Back  and ~just like you said @meaigs~ saw how much George was trying to engage with Paul and seemed so alert to Paul’s comments and songs, I was left wondering even more, what happened?? An easy explanation is that Paul was charismatic as hell and a musical genius who people craved attention and approval from, and when they didn’t feel that reciprocated back (because Paul could have a tendency to be guarded, preoccupied and independent) they felt hurt. That’s absolutely understandable *cue George’s face watching them sing “Two Of Us ” into one mic* and makes sense in regards to both George and John, but would that explain how far in the opposite direction they went by trying to knock him down later on? There had to have been more more fuel to the fire.

I think there’s a moment in Get Back that’s instructive here. Paul notices that someone is out of tune, and watches John and George tune up. Then they start playing again, and Glyn Johns says “Paul, I think you’re out of tune” and the other three whoop with joy. The delight they feel is palpable: finally, perfect Paul made a mistake.

The reason that’s relevant is I think that George in particular, never forgave Paul for being right about Klein.

Here’s my armchair analysis: They had spent years with this tacit agreement of all-for-one-and-one-for-all, where they would create consensus among the four of them. John hated jazz, so they all set aside any interest they had in jazz. Paul wanted them to have a uniform appearance, so they all got suits. Nobody was actually doing anything they really hated, but they were accommodating one another for the sake of cohesion. Largely unconsciously, I imagine. That was slipping by the late sixties. They were grown men with individual lives, getting a bit more stuck in their ways. Paul expected the tacit agreement to mean that they wouldn’t go with Klein without him, and the other expected it to mean that Paul would give in and join them. And the agreement was no longer strong enough to overcome either expectation. On top of that, Klein totally underestimated Paul (probably influenced by the way that Paul had been weirdly feminised in public opinion, and the patriarchal assumption that such a feminine man would capitulate).

So Paul draws a line, finally shattering the illusion that they are a four-headed-monster. But worse than that, he turns out to be right. Klein was manipulating them and did not have their interests in mind. Perfect Paul didn’t get taken down a peg. And it may be that Paul’s conciliatory instincts (which we see annoy Georg in Get Back ) just add fuel to the fire.

I think how Paul responded to Rishikesh must have something to do with it too, the conversation they all had about it was so uncomfortable. I think George and John were very hurt when Paul left early but for different reasons and with different reactions. Does anyone else think that’s valid?

I do! People on the internet are so weird about this. They talk as though Paul should just get with George’s amazing spirituality, but Paul’s spiritual experience is equally valid! If he wasn’t moved by the whole thing should he work it up in himself? Pretend he was moved? And if George is so zen about everything where is his chill with respect to Paul? You could see some of the banter about India as being insulting or insensitive, but I think that kind of banter was the way they talked about everything. 

I wonder if George was thinking “if Paul isn’t into Indian spirituality, then ‘we’ are not into Indian spirituality as a gang, so Paul is taking this away from me”. Whereas John and Paul had been “writing all those songs” , and something else was going on between them.