7.59am
5 December 2019
That article was really, really fascinating and I’m really glad I took the time to read it. I’m definitely saving it for later reading and reference.
When I saw this thread pop up on the main page, my first thought was “oh god” followed by a feeling of dread. It’s not that I don’t support the idea of a plausible more-than-platonic relationship between Macca and Lennon, it’s just that I’m made uncomfortable by some fangirls toxic obsessiveness with the subject (I especially don’t appreciate seeing smut when I search for “pictures of John and Paul together” or peruse the Beatles tag on Tumblr). I also am really turned off by the Yoko-hate (and on rare occasions, Linda-hate) that I have seen radiate off of passionate McLennonites. But despite my feelings on the subject, I really enjoyed reading an adept, well-said, and mature analysis of a potentially sexual relationship between John and Paul that wasn’t made by an obsessive Tumblr girl hopped up on the fetishization of queer M/M relationships.
Anyhoo, thanks a lot for posting, @Tangerine
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8.40am
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15 February 2015
^yeah, I feel like ~95% of the McLennon phenomenon is just fangirls fetishizing The Gays(TM). Straight people fetishizing same-sex couples is weird enough when you’re just, erm, observing general adult-rated content, squeeing over some random couple in public, or someone you know; but when you’re using the lives of real people in history who had real, complicated issues and relationships to satisfy your weird fetish, there’s something that strikes me as wrong about that. I haven’t been able to put my finger on why, but if I figure it out, I’ll probably post a dissertation either here or in the Philosophy thread.
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9.02am
5 December 2019
Beatlebug said
^yeah, I feel like ~95% of the McLennon phenomenon is just fangirls fetishizing The Gays(TM). Straight people fetishizing same-sex couples is weird enough when you’re just, erm, observing general adult-rated content, squeeing over some random couple in public, or someone you know; but when you’re using the lives of real people in history who had real, complicated issues and relationships to satisfy your weird fetish, there’s something that strikes me as wrong about that. I haven’t been able to put my finger on why, but if I figure it out, I’ll probably post a dissertation either here or in the Philosophy thread.
Oh if I have time I have my own dissertation and opinion that I’ll rev up, polish, and perhaps post later
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9.17am
Moderators
15 February 2015
I suspect my opinion might differ subtly from yours, although we may agree on the principle, so I’d love to see it and then can argue philosophy
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11.25am
30 April 2019
My thoughts on the fetish aspect has changed quite a lot since the last time i talked about it on here, for a few specific reasons i don’t have a lot of time to get into right now, but to keep it brief there’s a lot of nuance that isn’t discussed much and I myself wasn’t aware of when I was commenting on it before.
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Beatlebug, lovelyritametermaid11.33am
Moderators
15 February 2015
I’d love to hear your thoughts when you get a chance, @Tangerine.
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12.03pm
5 December 2019
Beatlebug said
I’d love to hear your thoughts when you get a chance, @Tangerine.
I would also like to hear these opinions very much.
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18 March 2013
*looks at ‘From the Forum’ webpage, whispers*
oh god, it’s back!
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1.41pm
18 April 2013
I do think that since Yoko has now told us John was bisexual, McLennon is now more credible. At the very least, it is plausible that John could have found Paul attractive and Paul said no. But this is the kind of thing that I don’t see Paul admitting, especially if he consented. He’s very concerned about his image and the way things are presented, much in the same way that Yoko is.
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7.02pm
14 December 2019
Very interesting article, Kaniffee. Thanks for posting.
For my thoughts on McLennon tumblr girls: I don’t have a problem with fanfiction/fanart in most cases, but it always makes me uneasy when real people are involved. I guess because it feels like an invasion of privacy to those real people who may or may not be in a relationship. I mean, everyone has a right to their own opinion and expression, but I personally feel awkward seeing fanfiction/fanart created by someone who has likely never met the people that they are writing/drawing about in real life. Fictional characters are fine (Even those go to far sometimes, but I don’t get uneasy about the characters with them.), but real people just feels immoral. When it comes to McLennon specifically, the hate for Yoko and Linda (who both loved their respective husbands) is just too much. Again, Yoko and Linda are/were just as real as any of us, so it’s just not fair to them if people hate them just for who they got married to.
I find it possible that John and Paul were in a relationship, but I also find it possible that they were close friends. Really, it’s just not for me to decide someone’s private life. If Paul wants to tell the world about an affair that he had with John, then he can, if he wants to keep a potentially romantic relationship with John private, he has the right to, and if he and John were just good friends, then that’s fine as well. We know about possible (but never proven) relationships between John and Stu Sutcliffe and John and Brian Epstein, but none of that proves or disproves McLennon. Really, only time will (or won’t) tell when it comes to McLennon, and that’s perfectly fine. It won’t please the tumblr girls, but it will all work out in the end.
Have a great day everyone.
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7.40pm
14 January 2013
Expert Textpert said
I do think that since Yoko has now told us John was bisexual, McLennon is now more credible. At the very least, it is plausible that John could have found Paul attractive and Paul said no. But this is the kind of thing that I don’t see Paul admitting, especially if he consented. He’s very concerned about his image and the way things are presented, much in the same way that Yoko is.
I also think it maybe plausible since Paul admitted in GQ that they masterbated together (with others), so who knows what else may or may not have happened.
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lovelyritametermaid, Tangerine, CakeMaestor3.57pm
30 April 2019
Alright this is gonna be a long one. I may end up spoilering a bunch of sections and adding in categories because there’s so much to cover.
Fanfiction:
To start off fanfiction is first and foremost fiction. Even when it involves real people, most of the people writing fanfiction don’t believe their stories actually happened. Even when based on real events, they recognize that they are adding their own artistic license and speculations to the story. I think this is true both for people who believe mclennon is “real” and for those who don’t. There are probably exceptions to this, but i haven’t encountered it that much. In general most RPF is either AU to the point of being essentially different people, or semi realistic in a way that’s pretty analogous to a biopic, or alternate history fiction.
How fanfiction interacts with fetish:
One aspect of the fetish discourse that gets kind of sticky is that so many of the people writing fanfiction are queer themselves and pretty young. For a lot of people this is mainly a safe space to explore and question their own sexuality. When it’s generalized that fic writers are straight women, and that these fics are inherently fetishistic, a lot of queer and questioning folks are thrown under the bus.
Even the sexual fics aren’t inherently fetishizing. Sometimes the characters participate in fetishes, but the gayness of the relationship isn’t usually fetishized from what i’ve read. There are exceptions and it may differ by fanfiction platform, but it is not the norm.
Fetishizing in general:
Fetishizing as a word is kinda just sticky in general. What does and doesn’t count as a fetish, when are fetishes bad and why etc. It gets messy very quickly and the criticism is not very clear. And this leads to certain groups highjacking this pretty vague and unhelpful word and weaponizing it against vulnerable groups (more on that later). I think that in cases where the fic is genuinely problematic it would be better to say “this fic was homophobic because it used x gay stereotypes” or something like that. Because I think that’s the main issue people have with the fics they call something fetishizing is this, not the depiction of queer people inherently.
Pivoting back to my earlier point, the term fetish has been somewhat highjacked by TERF rhetoric, in ways that target trans people and kink communities. Sometimes “straight girls fetishizing gay guys” is really code for “trans mlm” in the same way trans women get unfairly stigmatized for things like “autogynephilia.”
Here’s a couple of things that can go in depth on this better than I can:
Some other thoughts i had:
There’s definitely a larger point that could be made about representation, and the nuance and tact required to write about groups that you’re not a part of. Though at a certain point I think that criticizing typically young and amateur fic writers for this is probably less effective/useful than criticizing the professional media industries for their failings in these areas. They tend to have a lot more influence on societal norms, than any fanfic author ever will (50 shades not withstanding ).
My own experience:
Realizing i’m a trans guy has definitely changed how I look back on my own experiences in fandom and fanfiction, and I can see how it was a way for me to explore my gender and sexuality, when my experiences IRL were so conflicting and confusing. As an exploratory space I think it’s really important, and shaming people online that you don’t really know doesn’t tend to help anything.
TL;DR
lol idk how to summarize this
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27 November 2016
That’s certainly changed my opinion on quite a few points. Very, very well thought out post.
That tumblr thread was also very thought provoking.
Thank you, @Tangerine , for a very fascinating post.
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6.15pm
5 December 2019
I would like to start out by wholeheartedly thanking @Tangerine for their wonderful and fascinating post and I really appreciate the time and effort put into it. There’s a lot of things that you talked about that I haven’t taken the chance to consider or think upon and that have shifted my perspective a small bit on some topics. Sadly, I haven’t the time right now to watch the Youtube video, however, I plan on watching it later this evening.
I agree that it was very unfair of me to categorize all queer-based fanfic-writers as “straight Tumblr girls fetishizing m|m relationships,” but right now I’m just going to start off with where I’m coming from in terms of McLennon:
I understand if writing queer-based fanfiction or exploring the relationships and culture of queer people is an outlet for those who haven’t discovered their own identity, and yes maybe my word choice was slightly off when I used the word “fetishization,” but I do disagree on a few points. I understand where you’re coming from essentially, but when you say that people used in fanfic are either “AU to the point of being essentially different people, or semi realistic in a way that’s pretty analogous to a biopic, or alternate history fiction,” I completely disagree. When you write fanfic with Paul McCartney and John Lennon , you’re still using their likeness at some level and their name. You’re still taking their personal life that they have experienced and twisting it to fit your fantasies. And I’m not talking about innocent “What If” fanfiction that depicts the Beatles in fictional, historically-plausible scenarios, but hardcore “Paul is a soft boi twink who needs protection from alpha-top John” and then the fic goes into detail about John ramming Paul and then goes on to express hate to Linda or Yoko or Jane. This may be an extreme example, but imagine I take two of my friends, let’s call them “Jack” and “Lola,” and I write fanfiction about them. But not innocent, laughable fanfiction that’s made for a joke or maybe just like to be fun, but fanfiction where I have Jack and Lola interact in a sexually-explicit context where I make up stuff about their personal lives and personalities and obsessively rave on about how they absolutely have to be a couple there’s no alternative and I viciously hate on Jack’s actual girlfriend who he loves very much. If I did that, I would be in some deep s**t. And, yes, I have shifted my friends’ personas so that they seem off and unlike them, but I’m still purposefully using their name and likeness and taking their personal life and molding it without their consent into a fantasy that I so desperately want to be a reality. Now, doesn’t that sound a bit off to you? Doesn’t that sound a bit disrespectful of my friends? Shouldn’t I be treating my friends with a little more respect if I truly care about them the way I say I do? If I took the example down a view notchs, and let’s say that I just have Jack and Lola go on a wholesome date and have a little kiss. That’s okay. It’s not going so far as to dip my toes into the realm of their sex lives, something that is very personal to the majority of people (I know if I found out people were writing that type of fic about me, I would be irked and uncomfortable. Even if they claimed that my character, using my name, is completely different from the real me.) It’s the same thing with McLennon, and especially the fanart. I have no problem with McLennon being a reality. In fact, I find it to be something likely taking the evidence, but the culture that surrounds it is a little toxic in my eyes. I found it disrespectful of people making seriously sexually explicit artwork of Paul having sex with his dead best friend. I don’t want to see that. Paul doesn’t want to see that. I’m no prude and Paul is definitely not a prude (*cough cough* Hamburg *cough cough*), but There’s a major difference when you take someone who you claim to “respect” and illustrate their sex life for all to see. And this isn’t a homophobic thing. This isn’t a “I can’t handle looking at two men having sex” thing. If I came upon images and fanfic about Paul and Linda having sex, I would be offended/uncomfortable. It’s just downright disrespectful, no matter if you claim that its too “AU” to be the actual people. You’re still using their likeness and their personas and their names without consent. Straight, gay, male, female, black, white, cisgender, transgender, queer, bi, nonbinary it’s still disrespectful writing/drawing that kind of stuff in a serious manner no matter who you are. That’s why I significantly regret panning everyone under the term “cis straight Tumblr girl.” Also (forgive me if I’m repeating myself), but I would like to make clear that fantasizing about it in a wholesome, romantic context is not uncomfortable or offensive, it’s just the sex part that really throws things over the line and personally makes me uncomfortable. That’s why I initially used the term “fetishization,” because I’m using fetish in sexual terms. Whoever writes/draws these fanfics/artworks are in some fashion getting off on them and their viewers/followers who likemindedly obsess over McLennon in this context also are getting off on Paul’s and John’s sexual relationship, but in a public place, where it is inappropriate (yes, the internet is a “public place.” In fact, it’s the most public place of all.) And my shaming them on whatever degree, I find, is equivalent to shaming someone displaying pornography of their friends at school.
I also take major issue with fangirls/boys who paint Yoko as some oppressive, vitriolic force that is weighing John down and separating him from Paul his one true love. Those fantasies irk me because it’s just another example of internalized sexism. They are hating on Yoko because she is an “intruding force” in their eyes, and therefore passionate McLennonites ridicule and attack her, just like Beatlemaniacs who attack her for supposedly breaking up the Beatles. I despise this. I despise taking Yoko, as well as Linda, and unashamedly illustrating them as evil forces who’s only purpose in existence was to disrupt Paul and John’s relationship and ruin everyone’s lives.
There’s a ton more that I’d like to say on this topic but I’ve already spent way too much time on this and I have homework to do. I look forward to responses and thank you for coming to my TedTalk.
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8.44pm
30 April 2019
lovelyritametermaid said
I also take major issue with fangirls/boys who paint Yoko as some oppressive, vitriolic force that is weighing John down and separating him from Paul his one true love. Those fantasies irk me because it’s just another example of internalized sexism. They are hating on Yoko because she is an “intruding force” in their eyes, and therefore passionate McLennonites ridicule and attack her, just like Beatlemaniacs who attack her for supposedly breaking up the Beatles. I despise this. I despise taking Yoko, as well as Linda, and unashamedly illustrating them as evil forces who’s only purpose in existence was to disrupt Paul and John’s relationship and ruin everyone’s lives.
I’m going to address the other points you made later, but this I agree with 100%. The hate the Beatle’s wives and girlfriends get is awful.
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lovelyritametermaid8.03pm
1 November 2013
8.51am
23 August 2020
Hey everyone!
I have been visited the site for a couple of years, to read the history behind the songs, curiosities about the band and stuff, but never registered or posted anything on the forum, so I’m sorry for pop up out of nowhere just in this topic! (and sorry for my bad English too!)
But when I saw this subject being discussed, decided to give my opinion as a person that was for a long time on the mclennon bandwagon, and I’m not into it anymore for some reasons.
As stated in some replies, some girls in tumblr are absolutely obsessed with mclennon theory, and this kind of dehumanise not only John and Paul, but Linda, Yoko, Cynthia, Jane, and even George and Ringo. And I agree with @lovelyritametermaid when says even an AU fanfic uses their names and part of their history, so it’s not less dehumanising.
The main reason why I changed my mind about mclennon is that when you’re into it, you become a mclennon shipper and not else. You start to search mclennon hints hidden in lyrics, pictures, interviews. And the band itself (and even John and Paul as individuals) are put on second plan. Mclennon shippers become, as deep they dig into this theory, only shippers and not fans anymore (I say not only for me, I saw it happen to a lot of girls).
The second reason I gave up of the mclennon community is the hate sent to their wives. People writing about two men, married with women they choose to be with, and suddenly these women becomes villains in the history. Even irl mclennon shippers pop at Yoko Twitter profile to send hate. It’s not fair with them.
So, about the subject of this topic: was mclennon real? Today, as a person (not a straight teenager fyi) that had been for a long time reading about the band, my opinion is: no. Or at least, not in the way the majority of shippers imagine.
The reason people see (as I saw for a long time) a romantic/sexual relationship between John and Paul, is probably their unusual friendship. They were so close friends, far more than most family brothers, that it leads people to think they could only be lovers, because only lovers are so close like them. As you don’t see this kind of friendship so often, people assume that is more like a “bromance”. At most, maybe John felt some platonic stuff for Paul when they were young, and not else.
Another theory I have about mclennon is that heavy shippers (those who write sexual fanfics and draw fanarts) are seriously attracted for them both, so imagine John and Paul together to satisfy a kind of fetish. It’s not healthy at all imho
And I may add that since I left behind the mclennon universe, I could enjoy much more the band as a whole and its history without being obsessed with find hints of a romance in every song.
I hope have contributed a bit to the topic, and since now I’m a member , I think I’ll visit the forum more often.
Again, I’m sorry if I wrote something offensive at all!
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The Hole Got Fixed, CakeMaestor3.59am
22 July 2019
12.41pm
Moderators
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20 August 2013
CakeMaestor said
I just think ‘McLennon’ is weirdSide note: I might write a longer reply should anyone be interested in my thoughts.
Sure. Go for it when you get a chance.
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5.25pm
23 January 2022
I try not to obsess about other people’s love-lives. I don’t think it’s necessarily that healthy. But I tell you what, if I was an actor, and I ever needed to be really sad for a scene, I’d think about the possibility that John and Paul would have both wanted to be together but neither admitted it to the other.
There are a couple of snippets of Get Back , and some song lyrics, that really make me wonder
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