Please consider registering
Guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
McLennon
2 March 2020
7.59am
Avatar
lovelyritametermaid
You can meet me after heavy rain has fallen
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1389
Member Since:
5 December 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

That article was really, really fascinating and I'm really glad I took the time to read it. I'm definitely saving it for later reading and reference. 

When I saw this thread pop up on the main page, my first thought was "oh god" followed by a feeling of dread. It's not that I don't support the idea of a plausible more-than-platonic relationship between Macca and Lennon, it's just that I'm made uncomfortable by some fangirls toxic obsessiveness with the subject (I especially don't appreciate seeing smut when I search for "pictures of John and Paul together" or peruse the Beatles tag on Tumblr). I also am really turned off by the Yoko-hate (and on rare occasions, Linda-hate) that I have seen radiate off of passionate McLennonites. But despite my feelings on the subject, I really enjoyed reading an adept, well-said, and mature analysis of a potentially sexual relationship between John and Paul that wasn't made by an obsessive Tumblr girl hopped up on the fetishization of queer M/M relationships. 

Anyhoo, thanks a lot for posting, @Kaniffee 

The following people thank lovelyritametermaid for this post:

Beatlebug, Expert Textpert, Kaniffee, TangerineTrees

"....When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind...." 

"....This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around...."

  StarSpangledBanner-1.png              #BlackLivesMatter

2 March 2020
8.40am
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 17260
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

^yeah, I feel like ~95% of the McLennon phenomenon is just fangirls fetishizing The Gays(TM). Straight people fetishizing same-sex couples is weird enough when you're just, erm, observing general adult-rated content, squeeing over some random couple in public, or someone you know; but when you're using the lives of real people in history who had real, complicated issues and relationships to satisfy your weird fetish, there's something that strikes me as wrong about that. a-hard-days-night-ringo-11I haven't been able to put my finger on why, but if I figure it out, I'll probably post a dissertation either here or in the Philosophy thread.ahdn_john_08_gif

The following people thank Beatlebug for this post:

lovelyritametermaid

~ Ram On ~
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
ScotsIrishFlag-1.jpeg Blueberries1.png Vietnam Heritage and Freedom Flag
StarSpangledBanner.png

2 March 2020
9.02am
Avatar
lovelyritametermaid
You can meet me after heavy rain has fallen
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1389
Member Since:
5 December 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Beatlebug said
^yeah, I feel like ~95% of the McLennon phenomenon is just fangirls fetishizing The Gays(TM). Straight people fetishizing same-sex couples is weird enough when you're just, erm, observing general adult-rated content, squeeing over some random couple in public, or someone you know; but when you're using the lives of real people in history who had real, complicated issues and relationships to satisfy your weird fetish, there's something that strikes me as wrong about that. a-hard-days-night-ringo-11I haven't been able to put my finger on why, but if I figure it out, I'll probably post a dissertation either here or in the Philosophy thread.ahdn_john_08_gif

  

Oh if I have time I have my own dissertation and opinion that I'll rev up, polish, and perhaps post later john-lennon-salute_gif

"....When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind...." 

"....This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around...."

  StarSpangledBanner-1.png              #BlackLivesMatter

2 March 2020
9.17am
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 17260
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I suspect my opinion might differ subtly from yours, although we may agree on the principle, so I'd love to see it and then can argue philosophy ahdn_john_08_gifahdn_john_08_gifahdn_john_08_gif

The following people thank Beatlebug for this post:

lovelyritametermaid

~ Ram On ~
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
ScotsIrishFlag-1.jpeg Blueberries1.png Vietnam Heritage and Freedom Flag
StarSpangledBanner.png

2 March 2020
11.25am
Avatar
Kaniffee
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1276
Member Since:
29 April 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My thoughts on the fetish aspect has changed quite a lot since the last time i talked about it on here, for a few specific reasons i don't have a lot of time to get into right now, but to keep it brief there's a lot of nuance that isn't discussed much and I myself wasn't aware of when I was commenting on it before.

The following people thank Kaniffee for this post:

Beatlebug, lovelyritametermaid

Why yes that is a picture of Paul dabbing. Deal with it.

2 March 2020
11.33am
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 17260
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'd love to hear your thoughts when you get a chance, @Kaniffee.

The following people thank Beatlebug for this post:

lovelyritametermaid

~ Ram On ~
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
ScotsIrishFlag-1.jpeg Blueberries1.png Vietnam Heritage and Freedom Flag
StarSpangledBanner.png

2 March 2020
12.03pm
Avatar
lovelyritametermaid
You can meet me after heavy rain has fallen
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1389
Member Since:
5 December 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Beatlebug said
I'd love to hear your thoughts when you get a chance, @Kaniffee.

  

I would also like to hear these opinions very much. 

The following people thank lovelyritametermaid for this post:

Beatlebug

"....When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind...." 

"....This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around...."

  StarSpangledBanner-1.png              #BlackLivesMatter

2 March 2020
12.48pm
Avatar
AppleScruffJunior
Sitting here doing nothing but procrastinating...
Apple rooftop
Reviewers

Members
Forum Posts: 7211
Member Since:
18 March 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

*looks at 'From the Forum' webpage, whispers*

oh god, it's back!

The following people thank AppleScruffJunior for this post:

lovelyritametermaid, Beatlebug, WeepingAtlasCedars

 

INTROVERTS UNITE! Separately....in your own homes!

                 ***

Make Love, Not Wardrobes!

                ***

"Stop throwing jelly beans at me"- George Harrison

2 March 2020
1.41pm
Avatar
Expert Textpert
In bed.
Rishikesh
Members
Forum Posts: 4644
Member Since:
18 April 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I do think that since Yoko has now told us John was bisexual, McLennon is now more credible. At the very least, it is plausible that John could have found Paul attractive and Paul said no. But this is the kind of thing that I don't see Paul admitting, especially if he consented. He's very concerned about his image and the way things are presented, much in the same way that Yoko is.

The following people thank Expert Textpert for this post:

lovelyritametermaid, TangerineTrees, Beatlebug

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

2 March 2020
7.02pm
Avatar
TangerineTrees
Behind That Locked Door
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 125
Member Since:
13 December 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very interesting article, Kaniffee. Thanks for posting. 

For my thoughts on McLennon tumblr girls: I don't have a problem with fanfiction/fanart in most cases, but it always makes me uneasy when real people are involved. I guess because it feels like an invasion of privacy to those real people who may or may not be in a relationship. I mean, everyone has a right to their own opinion and expression, but I personally feel awkward seeing fanfiction/fanart created by someone who has likely never met the people that they are writing/drawing about in real life. Fictional characters are fine (Even those go to far sometimes, but I don't get uneasy about the characters with them.), but real people just feels immoral. When it comes to McLennon specifically, the hate for Yoko and Linda (who both loved their respective husbands) is just too much. Again, Yoko and Linda are/were just as real as any of us, so it's just not fair to them if people hate them just for who they got married to. 

I find it possible that John and Paul were in a relationship, but I also find it possible that they were close friends. Really, it's just not for me to decide someone's private life. If Paul wants to tell the world about an affair that he had with John, then he can, if he wants to keep a potentially romantic relationship with John private, he has the right to, and if he and John were just good friends, then that's fine as well. We know about possible (but never proven) relationships between John and Stu Sutcliffe and John and Brian Epstein, but none of that proves or disproves McLennon. Really, only time will (or won't) tell when it comes to McLennon, and that's perfectly fine. It won't please the tumblr girls, but it will all work out in the end. 

Have a great day everyone. heart

The following people thank TangerineTrees for this post:

Beatlebug, lovelyritametermaid, Kaniffee

"Everyone should have themselves regularly overwhelmed by nature." ~ George Harrison

"I'm Nobody! Who are you? Are you -- Nobody -- too?" ~ Emily Dickinson

 

 

2 March 2020
7.40pm
Avatar
Sky999
On The Hill
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1989
Member Since:
14 January 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Expert Textpert said
I do think that since Yoko has now told us John was bisexual, McLennon is now more credible. At the very least, it is plausible that John could have found Paul attractive and Paul said no. But this is the kind of thing that I don't see Paul admitting, especially if he consented. He's very concerned about his image and the way things are presented, much in the same way that Yoko is.

  

I also think it maybe plausible since Paul admitted in GQ that they masterbated together (with others), so who knows what else may or may not have happened. 

The following people thank Sky999 for this post:

lovelyritametermaid, Kaniffee
3 March 2020
3.57pm
Avatar
Kaniffee
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1276
Member Since:
29 April 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Alright this is gonna be a long one.  I may end up spoilering a bunch of sections and adding in categories because there's so much to cover.

Fanfiction:

To start off fanfiction is first and foremost fiction.  Even when it involves real people, most of the people writing fanfiction don't believe their stories actually happened.  Even when based on real events, they recognize that they are adding their own artistic license and speculations to the story.  I think this is true both for people who believe mclennon is "real" and for those who don't.  There are probably exceptions to this, but i haven't encountered it that much.  In general most RPF is either AU to the point of being essentially different people, or semi realistic in a way that's pretty analogous to a biopic, or alternate history fiction.

How fanfiction interacts with fetish:

One aspect of the fetish discourse that gets kind of sticky is that so many of the people writing fanfiction are queer themselves and pretty young. For a lot of people this is mainly a safe space to explore and question their own sexuality.   When it's generalized that fic writers are straight women, and that these fics are inherently fetishistic, a lot of queer and questioning folks are thrown under the bus.  

Even the sexual fics aren't inherently fetishizing.  Sometimes the characters participate in fetishes, but the gayness of the relationship isn't usually fetishized from what i've read.  There are exceptions and it may differ by fanfiction platform, but it is not the norm.

Fetishizing in general:

Fetishizing as a word is kinda just sticky in general.  What does and doesn't count as a fetish, when are fetishes bad and why etc.  It gets messy very quickly and the criticism is not very clear.  And this leads to certain groups highjacking this pretty vague and unhelpful word and weaponizing it against vulnerable groups (more on that later). I think that  in cases where the fic is genuinely problematic it would be better to say "this fic was homophobic because it used x gay stereotypes" or something like that.  Because I think that's the main issue people have with the fics they call something fetishizing is this, not the depiction of queer people inherently.

Pivoting back to my earlier point, the term fetish has been somewhat highjacked by TERF rhetoric, in ways that target trans people and kink communities.  Sometimes  "straight girls fetishizing gay guys" is really code for "trans mlm" in the same way trans women get unfairly stigmatized for things like "autogynephilia."

Here's a couple of things that can go in depth on this better than I can:

https://diskhorsedudes.tumblr.com/post/190572141545/im-a-cis-woman-in-kind-of-a-classic-millennial

Some other thoughts i had:

There's definitely a larger point that could be made about representation, and the nuance and tact required to write about groups that you're not a part of.  Though at a certain point I think that criticizing typically young and amateur fic writers for this is probably less effective/useful than criticizing the professional media industries for their failings in these areas.  They tend to have a lot more influence on societal norms, than any fanfic author ever will (50 shades not withstanding a-hard-days-night-george-10).

My own experience:

Realizing i'm a trans guy has definitely changed how I look back on my own experiences in fandom and fanfiction, and I can see how it was a way for me to explore my gender and sexuality, when my experiences IRL were so conflicting and confusing.  As an exploratory space I think it's really important, and shaming people online that you don't really know doesn't tend to help anything.

TL;DR

lol idk how to summarize thisa-hard-days-night-paul-7

The following people thank Kaniffee for this post:

lovelyritametermaid, The Hole Got Fixed, Beatlebug, TangerineTrees, WeepingAtlasCedars

Why yes that is a picture of Paul dabbing. Deal with it.

3 March 2020
4.45pm
Avatar
The Hole Got Fixed
A Dock at Southampton
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 7919
Member Since:
27 November 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8That's certainly changed my opinion on quite a few points. Very, very well thought out post.heartheartapple01apple02apple01apple02

That tumblr thread was also very thought provoking.

Thank you, @Kaniffee , for a very fascinating post.

The following people thank The Hole Got Fixed for this post:

lovelyritametermaid, Kaniffee

#AppleHoley2020: Get smelly people cleaned up! /-/ Make America hygienic again!
2016 awards: Username-Badge.png 2017 awards: The-Hole-Got-Fixed-2017.png 2018 awards:The-Hole-Got-Fixed-2018.png 2019 awards: Ringo-2019.png
aus-flag-v-small.png

3 March 2020
6.15pm
Avatar
lovelyritametermaid
You can meet me after heavy rain has fallen
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1389
Member Since:
5 December 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I would like to start out by wholeheartedly thanking @Kaniffee for their wonderful and fascinating post and I really appreciate the time and effort put into it. There's a lot of things that you talked about that I haven't taken the chance to consider or think upon and that have shifted my perspective a small bit on some topics. Sadly, I haven't the time right now to watch the Youtube video, however, I plan on watching it later this evening. 

I agree that it was very unfair of me to categorize all queer-based fanfic-writers as "straight Tumblr girls fetishizing m|m relationships," but right now I'm just going to start off with where I'm coming from in terms of McLennon

I understand if writing queer-based fanfiction or exploring the relationships and culture of queer people is an outlet for those who haven't discovered their own identity, and yes maybe my word choice was slightly off when I used the word "fetishization," but I do disagree on a few points. I understand where you're coming from essentially, but when you say that people used in fanfic are either "AU to the point of being essentially different people, or semi realistic in a way that's pretty analogous to a biopic, or alternate history fiction," I completely disagree. When you write fanfic with Paul McCartney and John Lennon , you're still using their likeness at some level and their name. You're still taking their personal life that they have experienced and twisting it to fit your fantasies. And I'm not talking about innocent "What If" fanfiction that depicts the Beatles in fictional, historically-plausible scenarios, but hardcore "Paul is a soft boi twink who needs protection from alpha-top John" and then the fic goes into detail about John ramming Paul and then goes on to express hate to Linda or Yoko or Jane. This may be an extreme example, but imagine I take two of my friends, let's call them "Jack" and "Lola," and I write fanfiction about them. But not innocent, laughable fanfiction that's made for a joke or maybe just like to be fun, but fanfiction where I have Jack and Lola interact in a sexually-explicit context where I make up stuff about their personal lives and personalities and obsessively rave on about how they absolutely have to be a couple there's no alternative and I viciously hate on Jack's actual girlfriend who he loves very much.  If I did that, I would be in some deep shit. And, yes, I have shifted my friends' personas so that they seem off and unlike them, but I'm still purposefully using their name and likeness and taking their personal life and molding it without their consent into a fantasy that I so desperately want to be a reality. Now, doesn't that sound a bit off to you? Doesn't that sound a bit disrespectful of my friends? Shouldn't I be treating my friends with a little more respect if I truly care about them the way I say I do? If I took the example down a view notchs, and let's say that I just have Jack and Lola go on a wholesome date and have a little kiss. That's okay. It's not going so far as to dip my toes into the realm of their sex lives, something that is very personal to the majority of people (I know if I found out people were writing that type of fic about me, I would be irked and uncomfortable. Even if they claimed that my character, using my name, is completely different from the real me.)  It's the same thing with McLennon, and especially the fanart. I have no problem with McLennon being a reality. In fact, I find it to be something likely taking the evidence, but the culture that surrounds it is a little toxic in my eyes. I found it disrespectful of people making seriously sexually explicit artwork of Paul having sex with his dead best friend. I don't want to see that. Paul doesn't want to see that. I'm no prude and Paul is definitely not a prude (*cough cough* Hamburg *cough cough*),  but There's a major difference when you take someone who you claim to "respect" and illustrate their sex life for all to see. And this isn't a homophobic thing. This isn't a "I can't handle looking at two men having sex" thing. If I came upon images and fanfic about Paul and Linda having sex, I would be offended/uncomfortable. It's just downright disrespectful, no matter if you claim that its too "AU" to be the actual people. You're still using their likeness and their personas and their names without consent. Straight, gay, male, female, black, white, cisgender, transgender, queer, bi, nonbinary it's still disrespectful writing/drawing that kind of stuff in a serious manner no matter who you are. That's why I significantly regret panning everyone under the term "cis straight Tumblr girl." Also (forgive me if I'm repeating myself), but I would like to make clear that fantasizing about it in a wholesome, romantic context is not uncomfortable or offensive, it's just the sex part that really throws things over the line and personally makes me uncomfortable. That's why I initially used the term "fetishization," because I'm using fetish in sexual terms. Whoever writes/draws these fanfics/artworks are in some fashion getting off on them and their viewers/followers who likemindedly obsess over McLennon in this context also are getting off on Paul's and John's sexual relationship, but in a public place, where it is inappropriate (yes, the internet is a "public place." In fact, it's the most public place of all.) And my shaming them on whatever degree, I find, is equivalent to shaming someone displaying pornography of their friends at school. 

I also take major issue with fangirls/boys who paint Yoko as some oppressive, vitriolic force that is weighing John down and separating him from Paul his one true love. Those fantasies irk me because it's just another example of internalized sexism. They are hating on Yoko because she is an "intruding force" in their eyes, and therefore passionate McLennonites ridicule and attack her, just like Beatlemaniacs who attack her for supposedly breaking up the Beatles. I despise this. I despise taking Yoko, as well as Linda, and unashamedly illustrating them as evil forces who's only purpose in existence was to disrupt Paul and John's relationship and ruin everyone's lives. 

There's a ton more that I'd like to say on this topic but I've already spent way too much time on this and I have homework to do. I look forward to responses and thank you for coming to my TedTalk. 

The following people thank lovelyritametermaid for this post:

Kaniffee, Beatlebug

"....When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind...." 

"....This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around...."

  StarSpangledBanner-1.png              #BlackLivesMatter

3 March 2020
8.44pm
Avatar
Kaniffee
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1276
Member Since:
29 April 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

lovelyritametermaid said 

I also take major issue with fangirls/boys who paint Yoko as some oppressive, vitriolic force that is weighing John down and separating him from Paul his one true love. Those fantasies irk me because it's just another example of internalized sexism. They are hating on Yoko because she is an "intruding force" in their eyes, and therefore passionate McLennonites ridicule and attack her, just like Beatlemaniacs who attack her for supposedly breaking up the Beatles. I despise this. I despise taking Yoko, as well as Linda, and unashamedly illustrating them as evil forces who's only purpose in existence was to disrupt Paul and John's relationship and ruin everyone's lives. 

I'm going to address the other points you made later, but this I agree with 100%.  The hate the Beatle's wives and girlfriends get is awful.

The following people thank Kaniffee for this post:

lovelyritametermaid

Why yes that is a picture of Paul dabbing. Deal with it.

21 March 2020
8.03pm
Avatar
Starr Shine?
Waiting in the sky
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 15907
Member Since:
1 November 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

Brainwashed by RadiantCowbells.

If you can't log in and can't use the forum go here and someone will help you out.

Forum Timezone: America/Chicago
Most Users Ever Online: 700
Currently Online: Ron Nasty, Shamrock Womlbs, Teddy Salad, Dingle Lad, alittlebitolder
Guest(s) 1
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
Starr Shine?: 15907
Ron Nasty: 10825
50yearslate: 8592
Necko: 7903
AppleScruffJunior: 7211
parlance: 7111
mr. Sun king coming together: 6403
Mr. Kite: 6147
trcanberra: 6064
sir walter raleigh: 5102
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 87
Members: 2573
Moderators: 6
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 3
Forums: 44
Topics: 4890
Posts: 349790
Newest Members:
dennisobell78, Cameron, Legionbus, kurlykale, etsriskmngmt
Moderators: Joe: 5099, Zig: 9812, meanmistermustard: 23244, Ahhh Girl: 19393, Beatlebug: 17260, The Hole Got Fixed: 7919
Administrators: Joe: 5099