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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
2 June 2020
5.04pm
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50yearslate
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Also, the pandemic has likely put many people in a position where they cannot afford to legally obtain the goods that they need.

I'm not trying to endorse the riots, I think stealing is wrong. But I do think that it is important to listen to what these people are trying to stay and implement some changes. One-time stimulus checks are not enough; the government can do more to take care of its people in these difficult times.

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lovelyritametermaid

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2 June 2020
5.20pm
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Starr Shine?
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Maybe they could start by not having a lock-down of DC on election day.

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Beatlebug

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3 June 2020
10.20am
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QuarryMan
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Absolutely. If they were smart, they'd bring them into a room to discuss their concerns and negotiate a plan. This way, everyone clams down and police who abuse their power are sentenced fairly. 

Yes, that's how you deal with peaceful protesters. Not RIOTERS WHO ARE BURNING THINGS DOWN AND KILLING PEOPLE. I'm sorry, but you forfeit your 1st Amendment right to freely assemble when you start infringing on property rights and using physical violence against people and things. I'd like to see you bring people into a room when they're smashing things and whacking you over the head.

This is a... really misleading take on the situation. The protests didn't just turn violent on their own, in fact in most cases the violence seems to have escalated much further once the police arrived. In Minneapolis the protests started off mostly peacefully with a few instances of violence until a shop owner fatally shot one of the protestors, thinking they were looting, at which point the violence worsened, and then it escalated even further after the police arrived. There has been a huge amount of footage online of police quite clearly and deliberately escalating the violence, attacking journalists, and using horribly excessive force on protestors, and then there's the (unconfirmed) cases of police infiltrators and agitators stirring up the protests from within.

Obviously we don't know the full story of every city and protest, particularly given their sheer scale, but it does seem a little dishonest to act as if this is just a case of lawless rioters who simply can't be reasoned with and not a situation where both sides have contributed to the extent of the violence and destruction. Not to mention that these protests wouldn't be happening in the first place if it wasn't for the decades-long continuous police violence and discrimination against black people.

Basically, I hope the riots and the looting stop, but I also hope that meaningful change occurs so that things never get this bad again, starting with real accountability being brought to police forces statewide, such as mandatory Department of Justice investigation for every example of extrajudicial killing. I mean, hey, we're both libertarians - isn't it in line with both our principles that the state should face severe scrutiny to make sure that it doesn't overstep its remit? 

People do rail against Trump's tweets all the time, lol... have you seen the "reply guys" (and/or gals) who make a career out of calling him out in his Twitter threads... still not Twitter's job.

I don't have a strong opinion either way on the legal status of Twitter, but people 'railing against Trump's tweets' is not a substitute for proper fact checking. This reminds me of when Dave Rubin argued that it would be fine to scrap all regulations because Yelp reviews and social media posts would apparently be just as effective in calling out malpractice. 

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There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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3 June 2020
12.38pm
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Dark Overlord
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Doesn't Dave Rubin know easy it is for people to lie online?

Anyways, as much as i hate to say it @QuarryMan i doubt much will come of these riots aside from all the destruction it caused. Back in 1992, we had the LA riots following the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King and all that came of that was that the officers were retried with half of them being found guilty. A bit more might come out of these riots considering Rodney King survived the attack but it's unlikely it'll be much more than the officers going to jail.

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3 June 2020
4.03pm
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QuarryMan
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Dark Overlord said

Doesn't Dave Rubin know easy it is for people to lie online?

Dave Rubin doesn't really know anything, to be honest. I've rarely seen a political commentator less educated and more naïve. 

Anyways, as much as i hate to say it @QuarryMan i doubt much will come of these riots aside from all the destruction it caused. Back in 1992, we had the LA riots following the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King and all that came of that was that the officers were retried with half of them being found guilty. A bit more might come out of these riots considering Rodney King survived the attack but it's unlikely it'll be much more than the officers going to jail.

Sadly, you might be right. It's bloody depressing that so much violence and pain and destruction might just end up coming to very little. We've already seen some progress, such as Chauvin's charge being changed to second degree murder and the other three officers present being charged as well, but that might end up being it. 

Here's a neat video by an ex-convict who know works with both police groups and others on how to improve the police service. 

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Dark Overlord

There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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13 June 2020
8.25pm
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Dark Overlord
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What are your thoughts on CHAZ.

While i love how they're living peacefully within an anarcho-communist society, proving to the world that we don't need government, the way they're doing so is really dangerous.

While it's not quite the same as the confederacy, what they're doing could still be considered a form of secession, which is considered an act of war, and Trump's already threatening to bring in the military, which could lead to another civil war.

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14 June 2020
4.48am
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QuarryMan
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Ehhhhhh. I agree with their aims like de-gentrification, police abolition/defunding, rent control, funding of community health etc, and I wish them success in their endeavours, but the whole thing honestly just screams 'controlled opposition' to me. It'll provide years of terrible news coverage for left wing & progressive ideas, inspire a pro-law and order backlash that might just get Trump re-elected, and will most likely eventually just quietly dissolve. 

I do, however, really like this mural that they did:

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There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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16 June 2020
12.06pm
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lovelyritametermaid
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My school is having prom after all-- they're doing it at a local country club in July, however they noted that social distancing measures will be enforced. It will be seniors only, though each senior is allowed to bring one guest (the guest has to be older than 13, but under the age of 21-- which has always been the rule for bringing a non-junior/senior date but still). I have two senior friends that have offered to bring me as his/her date, but I'm curious as to how it will all work. I mean has a small senior class, but still. 

My school is also hosting an in person grad ceremony at the football stadium at the end of the month split into two days where one day is for the seniors at the first half of the alphabet, and the second half is the rest. 

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17 June 2020
7.13pm
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Starr Shine?
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The more I think about the world today, the more I come to realize something,

 

I'm actually a conservative. I came to this conclusion after traveling into the wilderness for a week. I mean I love America and I shoot guns so it is now time for me to say why you should vote for Trump.

 

Trumps the only legit conservative vote out there. Third party is a joke so we gotta band together on this.

 

If Trump doesn't win, we'd get a democrat in office who can stack the suprime court with a bunch of gun fearing liberals and I don't want that.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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17 June 2020
7.13pm
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AppleScruffJunior
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.......

 

INTROVERTS UNITE! Separately....in your own homes!

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Make Love, Not Wardrobes!

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17 June 2020
7.16pm
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Starr Shine?
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AppleScruffJunior said
.......

  

I could only hide my feeling for so long. The torturous well churning inside of me, something had to give.

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17 June 2020
7.25pm
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meanmistermustard
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I genuinely wonder how anyone could even consider voting Trump. It completely mystifies me for so many reasons. 
I then remember Biden is his opponent and I go “ahh!!” and it makes a bit more sense. Not much but Biden is a dreadful option as well. 
 
You then you have those who say it’s therefore vote for the third runner, whoever they are. Voting for for a peanut butter sandwich with raisins would be as much of a useful vote. 

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

18 June 2020
3.42pm
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QuarryMan
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^ Pretty much the same for me. I expend so much of energy criticising the Democrat establishment that I often almost forget just how awful Trump is. Though I guess Trump does get thoroughly criticised all the time, so it's really covered ground at this point, whereas I think too many people are still under the impression that everything will suddenly be okay the moment a Democrat is back in the White House. Biden's incompetence is extremely funny, sure, but it's also dangerous - you have a president flirting with very real authoritarianism whilst their only real rival is too busy talking about how 'you should marry into a family with five sisters' and other such nonsense like it's 1872. 

@Starr Shine? , I don't know the full extent of your conservative positions, but if SCOTUS being filled up with anti-gun judges is what's concerning you, I wouldn't be too worried - it's already got a conservative majority, and even if Biden does get in he most likely will not get the opportunity to flip the balance anytime soon. The way things are looking, RBG will be the first of the current course to be replaced, and Breyer is the only other member even close to her age, so the two justices Biden would most likely be replacing are liberal anyway. 

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Dark Overlord

There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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19 June 2020
10.41am
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Dark Overlord
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Starr Shine? said
Trumps the only legit conservative vote out there. Third party is a joke so we gotta band together on this.

Joe Biden's also a conservative, at least in the sense that he's anti-change and supported many conservative acts like the Patriot Act, the Invasion Of Iraq, Wall Street deregulation, and is against marijuana legalization and Medicare For All.

meanmistermustard said
You then you have those who say it’s therefore vote for the third runner, whoever they are. Voting for for a peanut butter sandwich with raisins would be as much of a useful vote.

Sadly, it's a catch 22 scenario. People are too afraid to vote 3rd party because they're worried they're not going to win and 3rd parties can't win because people are too afraid to vote for them.

However, that's no reason to stay home or reluctantly pick the lesser of 2 evils (unless you genuinely want to) because a 3rd party will receive federal funding if they get at least 5% of the popular vote.

As for who they are:

Jo Jorgensen/Spike Cohen (Libertarian)

Howie Hawkins/Angela Nicole Walker (Green) (most likely candidate although conventions haven't happened yet, so it's possible they'll draft Jesse Ventura)

Mark Charles (Independent) (essentially Bernie Sanders but strongly pro life)

Don Blackenship/William Mohr (Constitution) (essentially Trump but 29 people died at his coal mine because he willfully ignored numerous safety violations)

Rocky De La Fuente/Darcy Richardson or Max Abramson (Reform) (conventions haven't happened yet but it's likely one of these 2)

It really sucks how we haven't had a real election since 2008. In 2012, we had Obama and Romney, who are essentially the same. Then in 2016, we got Trump and Hillary, the worst both parties had to offer. And now, we have Trump and Biden, which is 2016 all over again.

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19 June 2020
12.53pm
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Pablo Ramon
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Starr Shine? said
If Trump doesn't win, we'd get a democrat in office who can stack the suprime court with a bunch of gun fearing liberals and I don't want that.

  

Is the unrestricted freedom to own an arsenal really the only thing that matters to you?

20 June 2020
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Starr Shine?
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oh no, my friend got arrested for gunz. Now I change my Mind and will be liberal now. I saw the error of my ways!

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20 June 2020
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QuarryMan
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My position over the past few months has veered between reluctant critical support for Biden and no compromise 'Bernie or Bust' purism, but after Trump's recent attacks on the welfare of LGBTQ+ folks and his scary flirtations with authoritarianism (seriously, "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" is one of the most terrifying phrases I've ever heard from a politician) have now put me firmly on the side of the former. I quite honestly despise Biden - the guy represents to me everything that is wrong with the US political system - but at the end of the day his positions and proposals are generally much more tolerable than the nightmare that is Trump's behaviour. I don't think a Biden presidency is the solution to any of the fundamental, underlying problems 'Murica is experiencing the effects of, but in the short term, getting him in office would represent a clear improvement in the lives of the vulnerable people whose welfare is the #1 priority.

You heard me - I'm Ridin' with Biden, baby. 

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Dark Overlord

There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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20 June 2020
7.33pm
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Dark Overlord
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Great post but my concern is that a Biden victory could lead to 2024 being Biden vs Trump, leading to either 8 years of Biden or 4 years of Biden followed by a 2nd term of Trump. However, if Trump wins, we'll only have to wait another 4 years to get a real president in office.

Of course, with his threats to turn our own troops against us, it seems that giving Joe Biden 2 terms is the better option but i don't think it's worth the risk of giving Trump another term in 2024. And while it may seem crazy that Trump can win in 2024, time away from the spotlight helped George Bush (who's worse than Trump IMO), so it's possible it'll help Trump as well.

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20 June 2020
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Ron Nasty
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But say another term of Trump paves the way for Pence, and two terms of Pence... ?

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

Stay at home, protect your nation's health services, save lives, and do...
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20 June 2020
8.39pm
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Dark Overlord
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Good point but that can happen regardless of who wins. If Biden wins in 2020, then Trump, Pence, or Trump Jr. can win in 2024, leading to the same cycle.

And then there's also the possibility of 8 years of Biden leading to 8 years of his VP, which will probably be a right-leaning corporatist.

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