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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
13 September 2020
7.51am
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CakeMaestor
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Ron Nasty said

@Dark Overlord said

To be fair, Trump isn't the sole person to blame in this scenario, as his son in-law Jared Kushner also played a big part in downplaying the virus.

However, Kushner is not the President, the Commander-in-Chief. Many of those closest to Trump have parroted his approach. Had Trump had a different approach to the virus, taking it more seriously, it seems unthinkable that those around him, especially family members, would have contradicted him by saying it wasn't that dangerous. He set the playbook.

I'm not a politician, nor an American citizen so I cannot confirm this; but I perhaps the American government practices what is known as 'collective responsibility'. This practice or mandate states that all cabinet members must support any motions or practices that are being pushed by the cabinet publically, even if they disagree with it themselves. So I don't think that those who disagree really has a choice.  

Fixing a hole where the rain gets in during my spare time.

Fixing a hole in the ocean if I'm daring enough.

Doesn't really stop my wandering mind.

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13 September 2020
9.57pm
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Ron Nasty
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Thanks for explaining how much of a lockdown there was where you are, @WeepingAtlasCedars. About two seconds after I'd pressed "Submit Reply" I knew I should asked you as well as VB.

@Dark Overlord said
Interesting WeepyC it's not too different from our restrictions except that there wasn't a stay at home order and restaurants were allowed to stay open for take out (us Americans had to rely solely on the drive thru).

There was a stay at home order in Canada, DL, for instance, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told citizens on 23 March (the same day we in the UK went into total lockdown):

We've all seen the pictures online of people who seem to think they are invincible. Well, you're not.

Enough is enough. Go home and stay home ... we're going to make sure this happens, whether by educating people more on the risks or by enforcing the rules if that's needed.

Canada wanted to avoid using their "Emergency Powers Act" for the first time, which they would've needed to to make the stay at home message mandatory, but Canadians definitely got strong messages from their powers that be to stay at home.

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13 September 2020
10.26pm
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Ron Nasty
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@CakeMaestor said

Ron Nasty said

Dark Overlord said

To be fair, Trump isn't the sole person to blame in this scenario, as his son in-law Jared Kushner also played a big part in downplaying the virus.

However, Kushner is not the President, the Commander-in-Chief. Many of those closest to Trump have parroted his approach. Had Trump had a different approach to the virus, taking it more seriously, it seems unthinkable that those around him, especially family members, would have contradicted him by saying it wasn't that dangerous. He set the playbook.

I'm not a politician, nor an American citizen so I cannot confirm this; but I perhaps the American government practices what is known as 'collective responsibility'. This practice or mandate states that all cabinet members must support any motions or practices that are being pushed by the cabinet publically, even if they disagree with it themselves. So I don't think that those who disagree really has a choice. 

Collective Responsibility is only really used in Parliamentary democracies, when the Cabinet are made up of elected politicians who have a vote in the legislature. It's primary role is to allow politicians to argue policy until it's decided, and that then they must back the Government.

In the US the President's Cabinet is not made up of serving politicians, and while the President may work with his Party to get legislation through that they want, no member of the President's team has a vote in the House, so have no say on getting it through, with the exception of the Vice-President who has a vote should Congress be deadlocked.

Many around Trump, whether Inner Circle or Cabinet members, have found themselves out in the cold and either sacked or resigning because they've disagreed with or questioned Trump's positions or policies.

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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

15 September 2020
7.28pm
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50yearslate
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So this morning's newsfeed was fun

Love one another.

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15 September 2020
10.13pm
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Dark Overlord
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Ron Nasty said
There was a stay at home order in Canada, DL, for instance, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told citizens on 23 March (the same day we in the UK went into total lockdown):

We've all seen the pictures online of people who seem to think they are invincible. Well, you're not.

Enough is enough. Go home and stay home ... we're going to make sure this happens, whether by educating people more on the risks or by enforcing the rules if that's needed.

Canada wanted to avoid using their "Emergency Powers Act" for the first time, which they would've needed to to make the stay at home message mandatory, but Canadians definitely got strong messages from their powers that be to stay at home.

Good point. However, that's an advisory, not an order, as an order would give police the authority to fine or arrest violators.

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21 September 2020
11.42am
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Dark Overlord
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I thought i'd move this discussion here to avoid the COVID thread from becoming too political:

@The Hole Got Fixed said
Well... The government could help its citizens and enact legislation to prevent that from happening? It would impact the economy short term but long term would really help... Not to mention being in the interest of all the American people...

I dunno, just a thought.mccartney-shrug_01_gif

I cannot comprehend why all the politicians are hung up on the economy. Just shows their values, that they'd value a few bucks over many, many people's lives. a-hard-days-night-ringo-14blue-meanie

As much as i hate to say it, most American politicians are fueled by moneyed interests. Occasionally, you'll get someone like Ron Paul or Bernie Sanders who genuinely care about the people but typically, both Republicans and Democrats are WAY more concerned about their bank accounts than the people they represent.

A great example of this is Medicare for all, which has overwhelming bipartisan opposition among American politicians despite overwhelming bipartisan support among the American people, including 88% of Democrats and 46% of Republicans. But because the politicians are the only ones with a say in the matter, we instead funnel that money into the military industrial complex, making us the only developed country in the world that doesn't give it's citizens free healthcare despite having a larger military than the next 10 countries COMBINED.

This is why America can't handle a lockdown without disastrous economic consequences for the bottom ~90%.

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21 September 2020
6.38pm
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50yearslate
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If only we had nominated Bernie ahdn_george_05 there could have been hope

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Love one another.

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23 September 2020
12.04pm
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Dark Overlord
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On the plus side, both Andrew Yang and Nina Turner have suggested that they will challenge Biden during the 2024 primaries and since Biden's so hated by his own supporters, i can see a successful 3rd party run in 2024 by Yang or Turner if Biden (or another corporatist) becomes the Democratic nominee.

Of course, there's also the possibility of Howard Schultz running as an independent if a progressive wins the Democratic nomination, but since corporatist Democrats are mainly popular in states like Alabama and Mississippi where Republicans always win, he has no chance of winning.

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23 September 2020
3.58pm
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QuarryMan
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As much as I would like it, I highly doubt there will be a successful third party run for the presidency anytime soon. There quite simply isn't any other party in the US with the national infrastructure or funding to be able to pull off something like that soon, and it's not easy to build that kind of thing in only four years. In the long term, I'd like to see progressive Democrats build their own party in unity with the Democratic Socialists of America or a similar organisation, but I doubt that could happen by 2024.

In my opinion, progressives should mostly be focused on down-ballot primaries and elections so as to establish a real presence within state legislatures and Congress itself, as this seems to be where they are most effective. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I can't help but feel that concentrating so much on trying to get Bernie the nomination did the left a disservice this year - the presidency was always going to be a longshot, whereas winning congressional primaries seems to be going pretty well and if it continues will allow the left to become a voting bloc significant enough to start affecting real change. 

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23 September 2020
5.29pm
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Dark Overlord
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I mostly agree but if you look at the 2 most successful 3rd party campaigns in American history (Theodore Roosevelt in 1912 and Ross Perot in 1992), they pretty much came out of nowhere (with the latter lacking any political experience whatsoever) and won tons of votes, with Roosevelt getting 27% and Perot getting 19%, so i wouldn't be surprised if the Green Party got 15% of the popular vote in 2024 with someone popular like Andrew Yang or AOC, especially with Trump out of the picture.

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23 September 2020
8.52pm
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50yearslate
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Ok, but Teddy Roosevelt ran more than a century ago and Perot didn't even win any electoral votes... and 15% of the vote won't get someone elected, it'll just take away votes from Biden.

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