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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
30 December 2020
6.42pm
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AppleScruffJunior
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I’ll just repost my ‘banning abortion post’ from last year @Dark Overlord . By supporting a nationwide ban on abortion, you are supporting the death of women. 

 

Fortunately, today Argentina voted to legalise abortion, people who are faced with unexpected and unwanted pregnancies will no longer have to put their own lives at risk to terminate their pregnancies. 

 

In countries where abortion is not legal, women who are unable to go abroad to get an abortion (generally due to financial restrictions or their country banning travel for abortion) die. 

 

Last year a woman died in Argentina after inserting parsley into herself to induce a miscarriage.

Women use knitting needles and coat hangers puncturing their uterus and potentially bleeding to death. They throw themselves down stairs. They go to backyard abortionists who accidentally kill them.  

Three out of four abortions that occur in Africa and Asia are unsafe.

Seven million women in developing countries are admitted to hospital each year because they have undergone unsafe abortions. 

47,000 women die annually from unsafe abortions.

Women will want to terminate their pregnancy if they feel they cannot cope with being pregnant, have relationship problems, risk the shame and exclusion from their society because of their pregnancy, or simply do not want a child – whether abortion is legal in their country or not, abortions will occur.

By not allowing legal, safe abortions with a qualified doctor in a safe, sanitary doctor’s practice, women will die for reasons that are entirely avoidable or they will suffer complications that could permanently disable them. 

Denying the right to safe termination of pregnancy is allowing the death of vulnerable women who feel they have no other direction to turn to.

Of course, the most important thing to prevent abortions in any country are comprehensive, detailed sex education and free contraceptives for everyone (regardless of age). But even with these, a few cases will fall through the gaps and abortion should be the available third option for those who don’t wish to continue their pregnancy. 

 

If you are personally pro-life then that’s fine, I have no qualms about that however, if you want to ban abortion nationwide and therefore make ANY woman turn to dangerous ways to induce a miscarriage, then I don’t know what to say to you.

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30 December 2020
6.43pm
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Dark Overlord
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QuarryMan said
On the other hand, introducing a federal abortion ban would restrict the personal freedom of women and lead to a situation where thousands are leaving the US (or any country) to get an abortion elsewhere, necessitate the government having to even arrest doctors for performing the procedures they deem most ethical, and not even achieve the stated goal of stopping abortions. Unless you are an ethical deontologist who simply does not belief abortion should happen at all, I really can’t see any reason why the option of a federal abortion ban achieves your goals in the slightest.

I’d hope the fear of women facing criminal charges would scare them away from having one but regardless, i think we can all agree that the goal is to make abortion as rare as possible.

1964: You have to remember that JFK had been assassinated the previous year, and that the Cuban missile crisis was still fresh in people’s minds, so LBJ was already riding a wave of crisis patriotism in terms of support, something they capitalised on by a successful campaign depicting Goldwater as a dangerous extremist, most famously in the ‘Daisy’ advert which implied that a Goldwater presidency would lead to nuclear annihilation. I don’t think it’s too much a stretch of the imagination that the threat of nuclear war and the rush of patriotism after the death of a popular president would overshadow race as an issue in the minds of voters, even racist ones. That said, it’s notable that the states Goldwater did win were Arizona, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina.

Sure, LBJ was extremely popular at the time but surely he could’ve won more than 6 states had he not opposed the Civil Rights Act.

1968: The fact that Wallace won the same states Goldwater did does not negate the fact that Nixon undoubtedly pursued racist dogwhistles in his campaign, focusing on rhetoric about “states’ rights” and “law and order”, two terms which have been used as dogwhistles time and time again. Nixon tried the Southern Strategy; Wallace beat him at his own game by being far more explicit about his opposition to racial integration. This was the 60s, remember, when outright racial extremism was still much more publicly acceptable, whereas later on when explicit racism wasn’t acceptable in polite society it became more politically expedient to cloak it in euphemisms.

Good point, although states’ rights and law and order aren’t necessarily racist ideas.

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30 December 2020
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AppleScruffJunior said
I’ll just repost my ‘banning abortion post’ from last year @Dark Overlord . By supporting a nationwide ban on abortion, you are supporting the death of women.

Fortunately, today Argentina voted to legalise abortion, people who are faced with unexpected and unwanted pregnancies will no longer have to put their own lives at risk to terminate their pregnancies.

In countries where abortion is not legal, women who are unable to go abroad to get an abortion (generally due to financial restrictions or their country banning travel for abortion) die.

Last year a woman died in Argentina after inserting parsley into herself to induce a miscarriage.

Women use knitting needles and coat hangers puncturing their uterus and potentially bleeding to death. They throw themselves down stairs. They go to backyard abortionists who accidentally kill them.

Three out of four abortions that occur in Africa and Asia are unsafe.

Seven million women in developing countries are admitted to hospital each year because they have undergone unsafe abortions. 

47,000 women die annually from unsafe abortions.

Women will want to terminate their pregnancy if they feel they cannot cope with being pregnant, have relationship problems, risk the shame and exclusion from their society because of their pregnancy, or simply do not want a child – whether abortion is legal in their country or not, abortions will occur.

By not allowing legal, safe abortions with a qualified doctor in a safe, sanitary doctor’s practice, women will die for reasons that are entirely avoidable or they will suffer complications that could permanently disable them.

Denying the right to safe termination of pregnancy is allowing the death of vulnerable women who feel they have no other direction to turn to.

Of course, the most important thing to prevent abortions in any country are comprehensive, detailed sex education and free contraceptives for everyone (regardless of age). But even with these, a few cases will fall through the gaps and abortion should be the available third option for those who don’t wish to continue their pregnancy.

If you are personally pro-life then that’s fine, I have no qualms about that however, if you want to ban abortion nationwide and therefore make ANY woman turn to dangerous ways to induce a miscarriage, then I don’t know what to say to you.

I’d hate to see women die from unsafe DIY abortions and i hate when Republicans just want to ban abortion and call it a day, this is why i also want to implement social programs that would educate women, assist them, and dissuade them from having an abortion.

However, i also find it deeply concerning how these women are so desperate for an abortion that they’d risk jail time or even their own life just to get one, which seems to suggest that they could benefit from having someone to talk to that can calm them down during this stressful situation.

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31 December 2020
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Dark Overlord said
However, i also find it deeply concerning how these women are so desperate for an abortion that they’d risk jail time or even their own life just to get one, which seems to suggest that they could benefit from having someone to talk to that can calm them down during this stressful situation.

  

ab_channel=TED-Ed

ab_channel=BBCStories

ab_channel=TheGuardian

 

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31 December 2020
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Dark Overlord
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Those are some very interesting videos. However, while i feel really sorry for those women and i hope they can sign their child up for adoption and continue their lives as usual, we can’t let emotional distress become an excuse to terminate a potential life. Instead, we should do everything we can to help these women that doesn’t include letting them have an abortion.

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31 December 2020
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Dark Overlord said
I’d hope the fear of women facing criminal charges would scare them away from having one but regardless, i think we can all agree that the goal is to make abortion as rare as possible.

The problem is that abortion rates are broadly the same in countries where it is legal and countries where it isn’t, so clearly this strategy of deterrence doesn’t work. Have a look at this graph, for instance: 

Abortion occurs worldwide where it is broadly legal and where it is restricted Image Enlarger

So your strategy is not only failing to achieve your stated goals of lowering use rates as much as possible, it’s also causing all the additional harm as detailed by ASJ.

Good point, although states’ rights and law and order aren’t necessarily racist ideas.

Exactly, and that’s the point of a dogwhistle – it’s coded enough to provide plausible deniability, while being obvious enough to signal the true meaning intended. This doesn’t mean that every time someone uses one of those talking points they’re being racist, but the fact remains that these are strategies politicians hoping to capitalise on racist sentiment have used in the past and continue to do so. 

¡No pasarán!

 

31 December 2020
11.19am
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Dark Overlord
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QuarryMan said

Dark Overlord said
I’d hope the fear of women facing criminal charges would scare them away from having one but regardless, i think we can all agree that the goal is to make abortion as rare as possible.

The problem is that abortion rates are broadly the same in countries where it is legal and countries where it isn’t, so clearly this strategy of deterrence doesn’t work. Have a look at this graph, for instance:

Abortion occurs worldwide where it is broadly legal and where it is restricted Image Enlarger

So your strategy is not only failing to achieve your stated goals of lowering use rates as much as possible, it’s also causing all the additional harm as detailed by ASJ.

Your chart shows that ~4,000 less abortions happen each year when it is only allowed to save the mother’s life then when it’s broadly legal which admittedly is a small decrease but considering that i’m fine with women having abortions in that scenario, my plan would work.

Not to mention, the only 3 countries where abortion is banned even if the mother’s life is in danger are Vatican City, El Salvador, and Nicaragua, the former being extremely religious and ~95% male and the latter 2 being undeveloped countries which lack universal healthcare, so i think that rate is misleading.

Exactly, and that’s the point of a dogwhistle – it’s coded enough to provide plausible deniability, while being obvious enough to signal the true meaning intended. This doesn’t mean that every time someone uses one of those talking points they’re being racist, but the fact remains that these are strategies politicians hoping to capitalise on racist sentiment have used in the past and continue to do so.

Good point.

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31 December 2020
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That’s not the same thing as a federal abortion ban, though.. Not to mention that you could probably make the numbers in the first category much lower if you properly implemented the same measures we’ve been discussing. The contraceptions and sex ed stuff is just part of it. Polling shows that one of the most common motivators for people choosing to have an abortion is financial insecurity; if we globally moved away from supply side economics and started prioritising home ownership, healthcare, union membership, child support and reducing wealth inequality, then young people would be much more confident and willing to have kids, and as a result abortion rates would go down. 

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31 December 2020
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QuarryMan said
That’s not the same thing as a federal abortion ban, though..

I should’ve said a federal abortion ban unless the mother’s raped or her life is in danger.

Not to mention that you could probably make the numbers in the first category much lower if you properly implemented the same measures we’ve been discussing.

But that’s true for all 4 categories.

The contraceptions and sex ed stuff is just part of it. Polling shows that one of the most common motivators for people choosing to have an abortion is financial insecurity; if we globally moved away from supply side economics and started prioritising home ownership, healthcare, union membership, child support and reducing wealth inequality, then young people would be much more confident and willing to have kids, and as a result abortion rates would go down.

Good point. However, we need to make sure that we don’t go too far left on economics. After all, billionaires aren’t the problem, the problem is that so many people are struggling to get by. Of course, these are all reasonable ideas (although i think people should decide for themselves whether or not they want to join a union) but we need to make sure that we still keep our capitalist base because abandoning it has historically failed.

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31 December 2020
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Abortion is a good thing to have exist. Should be legal everywhere yah. Also don’t see the pro-life going after the IVF people as much as the abortion clinics. I wonder if the wealth disparity between the two has something to do with it…

 

 

I should’ve said a federal abortion ban unless the mother’s raped or her life is in danger.

Huh that’s strange to say, why would the mother being raped make it ok for her to ‘kill a child’ to use your terminology?

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31 December 2020
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That’s disgusting that anybody would suggest a woman should need to prove that she was raped in order to have an abortion. Have you ever been raped or know somebody who was? And have you seen what the reaction telling people usually gets? I can’t think of one person I personally know who wasn’t told they were lying or “asking for it” or that they were just drunk when they told people what happened. And if they do go to the police usually nothing is done anyways. But yes, lets force women who are raped to have to prove that they were raped in order to get an abortion.

And “unless the mother’s life is in danger”, but what about the baby’s life? If somebody’s a drug user and not willing to stop for the baby, you think it’s better to force them to have the baby who will be addicted to drugs instead of having an abortion before it’s even a baby? Then you’re also going to have all these kids born into homes where they’re not wanted and mistreated. Are you willing to foster or adopt kids who have severe medical and emotional struggles? Because if not then it’s not the baby you care about. 

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31 December 2020
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I think you all have made some very great points and you’ve made me feel a lot of sympathy towards these women. However, i think it’s best to change the topic as this is a very sensitive topic and i’d like to keep this page from turning sour.

What are your thoughts on copyright? I think 50 years seems like a reasonable compromise. This way, people can profit off their work for a long time and the Public Domain gets better works, including The Beatles entire discography (not counting Free As A Bird and Real Love ).

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31 December 2020
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The world would be a better place if men could get pregnant

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31 December 2020
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Starr Shine? said
The world would be a better place if men could get pregnant

  

Women would have to deal with a lot less bullshit and people dictating what we can and cannot do with our very own bodies that’s for sure.

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31 December 2020
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31 December 2020
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Dark Overlord said
What are your thoughts on copyright? I think 50 years seems like a reasonable compromise. This way, people can profit off their work for a long time and the Public Domain gets better works, including The Beatles entire discography (not counting Free As A Bird and Real Love ).

We’ve had this discussion before, @Dark Overlord, and I couldn’t disagree more.

It’s easy to question whether those at the top of the tree who have amassed fortunes in the multi-millions still need the royalties rolling in from 50-year-old recordings, but they only account for a tiny percentage of artists who have had success. For many more, who have had some to moderate success, their annual royalty check – and often it amounts to no more than a few thousand, if that – helps them keep their heads above water. Many artists consider their royalties as their pension, and you want to take away their pensions.

Also, why should Paul lose the rights to and income from their work, while someone like Bill Gates keeps the rights to and income from his work?

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31 December 2020
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Starr Shine? said
The world would be a better place if men could get pregnant

It would also be better if male contraceptive pills  existed 

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31 December 2020
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Little Piggy Dragonguy said

Starr Shine? said

The world would be a better place if men could get pregnant

It would also be better if male contraceptive pills  existed 

  

There are some in the works though if men will take it or not.

 

Also, people should encourage self-love. Can’t get pregnant from that

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31 December 2020
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They’ve also had problem with side effects with male hormonal contraceptives- lower sex drives, acne, mood swings, fortunately female hormonal contraceptives does none of those things. Am I right?!?

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31 December 2020
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AppleScruffJunior said
They’ve also had problem with side effects with male hormonal contraceptives- lower sex drives, acne, mood swings, fortunately female hormonal contraceptives does none of those things. Am I right?!?

  

yet for some reason, people call women the delicate/weak gender. pattie-boyd_02_gif

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