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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
13 May 2020
1.42pm
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QuarryMan
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Yeah, it's quite scary to think that even the people who have gone through all that horribleness might have to go through it again. 

In UK politics news, I'm quite pleased to see that Keir Starmer has once again humiliated Boris Johnson in PMQs today. Even The Telegraph, which generally serves as an in-house paper for the Tories, has been acknowledging it - their headline today read 'Starmer took Johnson apart like a Duplo train set'. His calm and precise approach really exposes just how little substance there is to Johnson's vague waffling, though of course it does help that the latter isn't protected by the wall of sound 360 MPs can provide. 

Edit: FIDDAYYYYYYYYY

There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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13 May 2020
1.54pm
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^ Ruuhhhhh- British MPs

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17 May 2020
10.18am
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Dark Overlord
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Pablo Ramon said in another thread (moved to this thread to keep that one apolitical)
I'm as stir crazy as the next guy, but it's already apparent that given an inch people will take a mile, and many people are not following even the most basic guidelines. I fully expect a second spike over the next month with a much higher infection rate and death toll and significantly worse economic effects. If the federal government had taken ANY leadership in guiding the country to a safer path, this would be far less of an issue.  

As much as i hate to say it @Pablo Ramon you're absolutely right.

However, instead of Trump issuing a stay at home order in late February/early March like many Democrats wish he did, i wish he instead asked (but did not require) people to stay at home and did rent/mortgage freeze/forgiveness, hazard pay, UBI, and Medicare for all, with the last 2 (especially the last one) being permanent.

These 4 things combined with a stay at home recommendation from Trump himself would encourage most people to stay at home since they don't have to worry about feeding their families and paying the bills, it would encourage non-essential businesses to shut down since remaining open would require them to pay their employees double, and if Medicare for all and UBI were permanent, people wouldn't have to worry about the $100K bill that comes in after they come home from the hospital and the UBI would prevent people from scrambling to find a job before their UBI runs out.

Since there would be no mandate to stay at home and or shut your business down and people can afford to stay at home, this would also mean that far less people would be protesting and while Trump's approval rating would've slightly dipped among Republicans if he had done this, it would've spiked a much greater amount among Independents and Democrats.

Sadly, our politicians don't want to spend that kind of money when they can just shut down all non-essential businesses and issue a stay at home order for much less without these 4 necessities that would encourage people to stay at home, instead using most of the money to bail out huge corporations.

But if we're going to have these mandates, we should at least be doing this the European way and remaining in lockdown until we have a vaccine. Like you say, people will take advantage of their freedom, so doing this thing the states are doing about slowly reopening and flattening the curve will likely result in most (if not all) states reinstating their stay at home orders because no one wants to do what these governors want them to do (even those who think they're doing the right thing), causing a spike in new cases.

And while Europe's response to the virus is extremely authoritarian, at least not as many people are dying there as they are here in America, where we get the worst of both worlds.

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17 May 2020
10.53am
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Ron Nasty
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Europe is not remaining in lockdown, @Dark Overlord, but is starting to slowly reopen. Lockdown rules have been eased in most European countries. In Denmark schools are back, in several countries restaurants are reopening, some countries are starting to allow movement between neighbouring countries. Football (soccer) restarted in Germany yesterday behind closed doors.

Here in England things are starting to reopen, and restrictions on how much we can go out and how far we can travel from home have been lifted, with plans for primary schools to reopen on 1 June in a limited way. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland believe England is moving too fast and remain in lockdown.

There's no European country I know of that plans to stay in lockdown until a vaccine is found.

And, were you to take Europe as a whole, instead of dividing it into its individual countries, the death toll in Europe is far higher than the US. The main reason the US death toll is high compared to the worst hit European countries is because the population is bigger. Add together the UK, Spain and Italy, you have more deaths than in the US, and still a smaller population than the US.

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17 May 2020
12.13pm
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Dark Overlord
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Good point although it's worth noting a few things:

1. UK didn't initially take the virus seriously

2. Sweden has taken the herd immunity approach

3. Russia ended their lockdown extremely prematurely

4. The UK was initially planning on remaining in lockdown until a vaccine was found but has since changed their minds since it won't likely be out for at least another year and it's even possible that a vaccine is never found

5. Europe is on the same landmass as Wuhan, where the virus originated, meaning that they had less time to react (although they STILL reacted better then the US)

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17 May 2020
1.37pm
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Don't all these points contradict what you originally said? 

There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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17 May 2020
1.38pm
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Ron Nasty
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Just some clarifications for you, @Dark Overlord.

On Sweden, while true that it's taken a voluntary rather than mandatory approach to physical distancing, and has had no lockdown, there are large questions over how successful it has been with that. In fact, when looking at deaths from COVID-19 per 100,000 residents, Sweden has had 34 deaths per 100,000 while the US has had 25 per 100,000. So, Sweden has a higher death rate per capita than the US (Spain has had the highest rate at 57, followed by Italy at 51, with the UK just behind on 50).

As someone who lives in the UK, and who has followed our response to the virus closely (including watching most of our daily Government briefings), I have never heard anyone suggest that our lockdown would last until a vaccine was found. In fact, quite the opposite, the legislation passed by Parliament to put in place the legal measures to enforce the lockdown makes it mandatory that the Government must review the lockdown measures every third Thursday - with the last review being on 7 May resulting in Boris announcing the easing of restrictions in England on the 10th.

Were the UK lockdown ever intended to be until a vaccine was found, that would have needed to be stated in the legislation and it wasn't.

As for China being on the same landmass as Europe, it's a huge landmass, and it arrived in Europe the same way as in the US, by air travel. Your implied suggestion that Europe was more vulnerable because of it spreading overland from country to country across Asia and Europe doesn't stand up to any level of scrutiny. Many Western European countries were affected by the virus weeks before the first cases were reported in many Asian countries.

It was air travel, and not shutting it down quickly enough, that spread the virus around the world - a lesson that will hopefully be learnt for when the next pandemic comes, as it surely will.

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17 May 2020
1.42pm
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Yeah, I don't think Europe being on the same landmass as Wuhan has any particular relevance here. If it did, then the US wouldn't be doing nearly as badly as it is right now. 

There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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17 May 2020
7.30pm
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Dark Overlord
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QuarryMan said
a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Don't all these points contradict what you originally said?

I think it's because i'm trying to defend 2 semi-contradicting viewpoints (that we shouldn't have a mandated lockdown but if we are, we should go all the way with it) and Ron Nasty's trying to debunk both of those viewpoints.

Ron Nasty said
On Sweden, while true that it's taken a voluntary rather than mandatory approach to physical distancing, and has had no lockdown, there are large questions over how successful it has been with that. In fact, when looking at deaths from COVID-19 per 100,000 residents, Sweden has had 34 deaths per 100,000 while the US has had 25 per 100,000. So, Sweden has a higher death rate per capita than the US (Spain has had the highest rate at 57, followed by Italy at 51, with the UK just behind on 50).

What i was trying to say is that Sweden's herd immunity approach is partially to blame for Europe having a higher death rate then the US.

As someone who lives in the UK, and who has followed our response to the virus closely (including watching most of our daily Government briefings), I have never heard anyone suggest that our lockdown would last until a vaccine was found. In fact, quite the opposite, the legislation passed by Parliament to put in place the legal measures to enforce the lockdown makes it mandatory that the Government must review the lockdown measures every third Thursday - with the last review being on 7 May resulting in Boris announcing the easing of restrictions in England on the 10th.

I was basing my statement off various articles:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/.....ug-whitty/

https://news.sky.com/story/cor.....r-11973906

https://www.standard.co.uk/new.....15561.html

As for China being on the same landmass as Europe, it's a huge landmass, and it arrived in Europe the same way as in the US, by air travel. Your implied suggestion that Europe was more vulnerable because of it spreading overland from country to country across Asia and Europe doesn't stand up to any level of scrutiny. Many Western European countries were affected by the virus weeks before the first cases were reported in many Asian countries.

It was air travel, and not shutting it down quickly enough, that spread the virus around the world - a lesson that will hopefully be learnt for when the next pandemic comes, as it surely will.

Good point about air travel. It really sucks to think that this whole catastrophe could've been prevented by banning air travel to and from areas affected from the virus until a vaccine was found.

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18 May 2020
2.17pm
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Haven't read all the posts but Scotland is planning to start emerging from lockdown on the 28th May.

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18 May 2020
2.34pm
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Just a general piece of advice, @Dark Overlord , be extremely careful about trusting anything you read from The Sun. They are a bunch of liars who pass their vile drivel as 'journalism' and have been responsible for ruining many people's lives over the years. Any Scouser will tell you that - after the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 they published horrific lies about Liverpool fans - many of whom lost their lives - including claiming that fans pick-pocketed the dead, urinated on police and beat up a police officer trying to perform the kiss of life. Liverpudlians sum this up quite simply - don't buy The Sun. 

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There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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18 May 2020
2.43pm
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19 May 2020
12.16pm
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So Nancy Pelosi has continued her brave #Resistance by... calling Trump 'morbidly obese'. Even against someone as petulant and immature as Trump, it's still so juvenile and lame... this is politics, not a playground, and people who treat it like a game of which politician can score the sassiest zinger are the worst.

Also, this is further proof that the Slay Kween pop feminists who think that ripping up a sheet of paper is resistance truly have no principles - they already abandoned all the 'Believe All Women' stuff as soon as it was no longer politically convenient once Biden's creepy ass got exposed, and now watch how quickly they'll bend over backwards to explain why fat shaming is suddenly okay as long as you disagree with the person you're insulting. Pelosi will be the one laughing while she's cashing her big donation cheques and passing Trump's agenda through the House while the press is distracted. 

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19 May 2020
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Though that should be put in context, @QuarryMan, as a criticism of his admission that he has been taking hydroxychloroquine to prevent COVID-19, which the FDA have stated has no effect and is dangerous to be taken by many, including those who are overweight. Even Fox News have criticised him and pointed out that it's dangerous for overweight people to take the drug, that his claim it is safe is BS, and that it could kill him because he's overweight, and that the drug is proven to cause heart problems among such groups.

I do wonder why American doctors get away with prescribing prescription-only drugs that have no medical benefit. Had a UK doctor prescribed it for Boris just because Boris asked for it they would be struck off, but it seems in America that the rich and powerful can get any drug they demand whether there is any medical benefit or not.

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19 May 2020
1.04pm
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Regardless of the context, it makes her look pathetic. People will stop listening if she, and others, keep going after Trump on stupid points as they are only making themselves look childish. Trump doesn't need them to point out how idiotic he is, the trouble is those who you want to be listening are not and are quite content to overlook all that he does and say.

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19 May 2020
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Ron Nasty
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Which is why I pointed out that even Fox News, his go to media supporter, slammed him within minutes of his announcement that he's taking hydroxychloroquine, on the grounds of his weight, mmm. Many of his supporters are big watchers of Fox News, and this is about the first time they have come out and said he's sending an extremely dangerous message and that their viewers should ignore him.

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19 May 2020
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It should also be noted that "morbidly obese" is a medical term, one most doctors would apply to President Trump, so far better to use than just calling him a fattie.

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19 May 2020
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But wouldn't it make more sense to point out genuine criticisms of Trump instead of just hurling insults.

Don't get me wrong, it was extremely immature of Trump to suggest injecting disinfectant to cure the virus but it seems like Nancy's just trying to use this as an excuse to insult him based on his weight as opposed to genuine concern for his well being. Not to mention, these weak criticisms actually make Trump look GOOD because it suggests to his supporters that Trump's such a great president that his opposition have no choice but to resort to hurling insults and pointing out trivial nonsense.

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19 May 2020
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Ron Nasty said
Though that should be put in context, @QuarryMan, as a criticism of his admission that he has been taking hydroxychloroquine to prevent COVID-19, which the FDA have stated has no effect and is dangerous to be taken by many, including those who are overweight. Even Fox News have criticised him and pointed out that it's dangerous for overweight people to take the drug, that his claim it is safe is BS, and that it could kill him because he's overweight, and that the drug is proven to cause heart problems among such groups.

True, but even within context I think it's obvious she knew exactly how using such a phrase would be interpreted, just like when she tore up his speech. Both are calculated ploys to please her base without her actually having to do anything or meaningfully oppose his policy. 

It's laughable that he thinks taking that will prevent him getting COVID-19, though. To be honest, I'm surprised he hasn't gotten it already. 

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19 May 2020
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But it is a genuine criticism that he is taking a drug to prevent COVID-19 which the FDA has clearly stated does not work, and is dangerous for many people with existing health issues, causing heart problems, including those who doctors would class as "morbidly obese", as they would President Trump. He has been roundly condemned by everyone, and his claim that lots of frontline medical professionals are taking hydroxychloroquine he hasn't, as always, provided any evidence for, and we have seen instead seen medical professional after medical professional condemning him, even among his supporters, and telling people not to follow his example because it could kill you.

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