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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
15 April 2020
3.06pm
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QuarryMan
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Dark Overlord said

Is there anything enacted because of the coronavirus that you'd like to continue once the virus is over?

While i disagree with any sort of enforcement, there are a few things that i wish would voluntarily continue:

1. I think people should continue to only drive to essential places like work and grocery shopping because it's had a positive impact on the environment

I agree with this; but I would add that we should have much better public transport to pick up the slack. 

2. I think the police should never return to arresting non-violent offenders because our prisons should only be for those who are a threat to society

Broadly agree, but prior to this you'd need a large scale revamping of the legality of these things e.g. legalisation of recreational drugs. 

3. I think people should continue to use social distancing because it never hurts to do so and you never know when the next pandemic is coming

I just don't think this would be practical or desirable. Do you really want people to have to queue for miles outside to go shopping, or schools to have to make their students sit two desks apart, or for people never to be able to hug or show physical affection to their friends and loved ones? The good thing is that now people are familiar with social distancing and what it requires, it won't be too difficult for people to take it up again if the need arises, but to ask that people do it for no good reason in normal circumstances is frankly ridiculous.

4. I think we should stop going to things like rock concerts and football games for the reasons stated above as well as the fact that livestreaming these events from a remote location would make them more accessible to those who live in a place where popular artists rarely perform

Why not both? Going to a sports game or a concert in person is always going to be much more fun because of the atmosphere and I would never want to lose that (okay, not always - I'd rather watch a concert livestreamed than from the back of a huge stadium where you can't even see the musicians), but for those who aren't able to, livestreaming is a good alternative. 

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15 April 2020
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Ah yes, the nosebleed seat atmosphere – it primarily consists of pot smoke, in my limited experience a-hard-days-night-john-6

(so much for criminalizing it ahdn_paul_01)

But, yeah, I pretty much agree with ya up there, Qman.

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15 April 2020
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I just think that instead of forcing people to hermit in their homes for the rest of history governments and health agencies around the world should put more public health research and resources into assuring that, in the event that another pandemic occurs, we are a lot better prepared. Governments should put as much money and research and jobs into defending the public's health through a better healthcare system as they put into defending the public from threats via military. 

It's also ignorant to say that we just need to social distance forever. Social distancing and self-quarantine are not at all long-term solutions-- the only reason we're doing these things now is to buy the healthcare system more time. It decreases the amount infected, yes, but the healthcare system still needs to develop a more long-term and effective pandemic strategy so that we can actually defeat coronavirus instead of just hiding in our homes until it "disappears" (which it won't without a vaccine). Better options need to be explored and put into place. What I'm basically trying to say is, social distancing can't be let up anytime soon, but we can't make people live like this forever. The majority of human beings need IRL socialization for sanity, companionship, and sex. It's just paranoid thinking to force people to social distance even after the virus has been wiped out. More public health and sanitation institutions should be put into place, yes, but you can't ask people to surrender their social and sex lives for the rest of their lives. 

Also, don't take away concerts! I haven't even been to one yet! I want to feel the boundless energetic atmosphere of a hype concert with good-ass music (while being at least a little baked) at least once in my life! 

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15 April 2020
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Definitely don't agree on not arresting those accused of non-violent crimes (interesting how your minds jump to drug offences I think, takes another toke on joint a-hard-days-night-george-10).

As an example, most forms of theft are considered to be non-violent with the exception of robbery. Do you really want it that having your house burgled while you're out is something that the police can't arrest anyone for, or the pickpocket can't be arrested, or the shoplifter, or the guy that nicks the bike you've chained up, or who steals your car? These would, and are, all considered non-violent crimes unless someone is directly threatened (at which point it becomes robbery).

Is it really being suggested that most forms of theft are, effectively, decriminalised?

That's before we start getting onto fraud and other forms of white-collar crime...

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15 April 2020
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Ron Nasty said
Definitely don't agree on not arresting those accused of non-violent crimes (interesting how your minds jump to drug offences I think, takes another toke on joint a-hard-days-night-george-10).

As an example, most forms of theft are considered to be non-violent with the exception of robbery. Do you really want it that having your house burgled while you're out is something that the police can't arrest anyone for, or the pickpocket can't be arrested, or the shoplifter, or the guy that nicks the bike you've chained up, or who steals your car. These would, and are, all considered non-violent crimes unless someone is directly threatened (at which point it becomes robbery).

Is it really being suggested that most forms of theft are, effectively, decriminalised?

  

I agree completely, RN

But also to mild support you're argument, don't forget the slew of crimes beyond theft that are considered non-violent: embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, obstruction of justice, damage of private property, traffic offenses (DUI, speeding, etc. that can easily lead to unnecessary violence), harassment (stalking, sexual harassment, threats), a slew of non-violent sex crimes (pedophilia, molestation, etc.), cybercrimes...... 

Be careful using the "non-violent" crimes umbrella, @Dark Overlord. 

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15 April 2020
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lovelyritametermaid said

Also, don't take away concerts! I haven't even been to one yet! I want to feel the boundless energetic atmosphere of a hype concert with good-ass music (while being at least a little baked) at least once in my life! 

  

Yep. That was a huge part of my summer plan, being more than a little bit under the influence

Also, sports have been doing a combination of live audience and live stream for decades. Thats how it works.

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15 April 2020
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Ron Nasty said
Definitely don't agree on not arresting those accused of non-violent crimes (interesting how your minds jump to drug offences I think, takes another toke on joint a-hard-days-night-george-10).As an example, most forms of theft are considered to be non-violent with the exception of robbery. Do you really want it that having your house burgled while you're out is something that the police can't arrest anyone for, or the pickpocket can't be arrested, or the shoplifter, or the guy that nicks the bike you've chained up, or who steals your car? These would, and are, all considered non-violent crimes unless someone is directly threatened (at which point it becomes robbery)

Is it really being suggested that most forms of theft are, effectively, decriminalised?

That's before we start getting onto fraud and other forms of white-collar crime...

  

Whilst I admit that I did mostly just think of drugs when reading DO's point (the phrase non-violent is commonly used in association with drug offences), I don't necessarily think all of these crimes should lead to prison sentences, which is what DO said in his original post. There's a distinction between not arresting someone altogether and not putting them in prison. I think in many cases prison is not a constructive solution and can lead to far more problems than it solves. Prison actually increases the likelihood that inmates will reoffend on the outside, and statistically does not appear to act as a deterrent for most types of offence. That's not even considering the horrendous problems most modern prison systems face, particularly here in the UK. 

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15 April 2020
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Whilst there is a valid argument about how much prison is used, @QuarryMan, and whether community based punishments aren't better suited in many instances, DO said:

I think the police should never return to arresting non-violent offenders...

How do you give any form of punishment, whichever form can be debated, if you do not arrest those accused of non-violent crimes, allowing them to be charged with a crime? To be charged with a crime you need to have been arrested. Lots of arguments about how the "debt to society/punishment" should be handled at the end of the process but not arresting non-violent offenders means not charging them, and them never serving the community sentence you'd argue for, but the crime being ignored.

The vast majority of crimes are committed by non-violent offenders, so if you don't arrest non-violent offenders the vast majority of crimes go unanswered... how they are answered is a whole different debate.

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15 April 2020
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Simple misunderstanding, @Ron Nasty . I was agreeing with the second half of DO's statement ("our prisons should only be for those who are a threat to society"), not the first half (the bit about non-violent offenders not being arrested). Should've made that more clear. 

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15 April 2020
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Only problem was, @QuarryMan, that the premise of the second half of DO's statement depended on the first half, and the first half was... well... I'll let you make up your own minds about what I thought...

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15 April 2020
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QuarryMan said

Dark Overlord said

Is there anything enacted because of the coronavirus that you'd like to continue once the virus is over?

While i disagree with any sort of enforcement, there are a few things that i wish would voluntarily continue:

1. I think people should continue to only drive to essential places like work and grocery shopping because it's had a positive impact on the environment

I agree with this; but I would add that we should have much better public transport to pick up the slack.

Free public transport sounds like a great idea, as it both helps out the environment and the people.

QuarryMan said

3. I think people should continue to use social distancing because it never hurts to do so and you never know when the next pandemic is coming

I just don't think this would be practical or desirable. Do you really want people to have to queue for miles outside to go shopping, or schools to have to make their students sit two desks apart, or for people never to be able to hug or show physical affection to their friends and loved ones? The good thing is that now people are familiar with social distancing and what it requires, it won't be too difficult for people to take it up again if the need arises, but to ask that people do it for no good reason in normal circumstances is frankly ridiculous.

Not to that extreme but i think it would be nice if people stopped crowding in large areas.

QuarryMan said

4. I think we should stop going to things like rock concerts and football games for the reasons stated above as well as the fact that livestreaming these events from a remote location would make them more accessible to those who live in a place where popular artists rarely perform

Why not both? Going to a sports game or a concert in person is always going to be much more fun because of the atmosphere and I would never want to lose that (okay, not always - I'd rather watch a concert livestreamed than from the back of a huge stadium where you can't even see the musicians), but for those who aren't able to, livestreaming is a good alternative.

Because tons of people attend those events with very space inbetween them so if someone with a new, unknown, and potentially deadly disease comes to a major event like the Super Bowl, you can have 100,000 people get infected and then those people can easily spread the disease.

Ron Nasty said
Definitely don't agree on not arresting those accused of non-violent crimes (interesting how your minds jump to drug offences I think, takes another toke on joint a-hard-days-night-george-10).

As an example, most forms of theft are considered to be non-violent with the exception of robbery. Do you really want it that having your house burgled while you're out is something that the police can't arrest anyone for, or the pickpocket can't be arrested, or the shoplifter, or the guy that nicks the bike you've chained up, or who steals your car? These would, and are, all considered non-violent crimes unless someone is directly threatened (at which point it becomes robbery).

Is it really being suggested that most forms of theft are, effectively, decriminalised?

That's before we start getting onto fraud and other forms of white-collar crime...

Sorry, what i meant to say was victimless crimes. While i do think that petty theft (i.e. shoplifting DVD's) should be dealt with by paying back the amount stolen plus community service and or a little extra, i definitely support prison times for more serious forms of theft, as well as white collar crimes like fraud and embezzlement.

lovelyritametermaid said
But also to mild support you're argument, don't forget the slew of crimes beyond theft that are considered non-violent: embezzlement, fraud, tax evasion, obstruction of justice, damage of private property, traffic offenses (DUI, speeding, etc. that can easily lead to unnecessary violence), harassment (stalking, sexual harassment, threats), a slew of non-violent sex crimes (pedophilia, molestation, etc.), cybercrimes......

Pedophilia is definitely a violent crime, as you're physically forcing yourself onto someone who is mentally incapable of giving sexual consent. I'd also consider things like reckless driving or willfully ignoring safety violations where you are putting others at risk to be violent crimes. As for harassment, i agree that it's non-violent but if you get a restraining order and they violate it, then they should go to prison.

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16 April 2020
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I would agree that those who are not harmful to society should not be put in prison, but that's a very general statement that could be loosely interpreted in a lot of different ways.

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meanmistermustard said
 

@Zig

@Zig 

@Zig 

  

What?

What?

What?

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22 April 2020
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Wow it's zig the mod on last time was 19 August 2019 8.04pm

 

I guess Ellie remains at the top of least active mod/admin but you gave her a good running you did. I do miss your giant weirdly shaped avatar though.

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22 April 2020
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He returns! Also I don't think I've ever encountered an Ellie or seen one of their posts on my three years in the forum a-hard-days-night-john-6

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22 April 2020
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Ellie is Joe's wife, I've witnessed one of her posts live I think a total of one time.

 

*puts on red shirt*

For an admin, she's put in very little work!!!  Typical of us poor forum users to contribute posts in the 0000's and yet we remain in the lowly roles of moderators and general users. It's an outrage. I declare we up-rise! 

 

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22 April 2020
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Zig said

meanmistermustard said

 

@Zig

@Zig 

@Zig 

  

What?

What?

What?

  

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22 April 2020
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Gosh Ziggity darn it, it's Zig himself! john-lennon-salute_gif

Great to see you again.

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23 April 2020
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Link to an interesting short story I cited in one of my recent philosophy essays - worth reading for anyone interested in ethics.

https://docs.google.com/viewer.....JkZDE0MDFk

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@AppleScruffJunior I'm going to move the conversation here so the other thread remains apolitical.

Anyways, i have many problems with Western civilization:

Class divide:

There's such a divide between social classes that 3 people own as much as half of all Americans and while some believe that people choose to be poor by being lazy, that's not true because most of the top 1% were born wealthy.

Political bias:

There's 2 mindsets in America, Republican or Democrat. Even if you don't fit into one of these 2 categories, you side with one of them.

This distorted reality came to a peak in 2016 when people reluctantly chose Trump or Hillary, even though most of them preferred Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson or Green candidate Jill Stein and it will happen again in the fall when people reluctantly choose Trump or Biden, even though most people prefer Libertarian candidate Jacob Hornberger or Green candidate Howie Hawkins.

This also leads to people loving their party and hating the other party no matter what they do. For example, the Democrats were against Trump getting the troops out of Syria even though it's something they wanted Obama to do while the Republicans are strongly against Obamacare despite it being created by Republican Mitt Romney as an alternative to Democrat Bill Clinton's healthcare plan of 1993.

Identity politics:

Who cares if you're a white man or a black girl or whatever else, it shouldn't matter. But it does here, where there's both the intersectionality and affirmative action of the far left and the hyper nationalism and race realism of the far right. And while i'll admit the left does it in good taste, both forms of identity politics fuel each other and the only way to stop it is to accept that we're all people and should all be treated equally.

Political correctness:

Political correctness is an oxymoron, as it's only used to benefit the left and being politically incorrect doesn't hurt anyone. Yet, society is expected to be politically correct and use politically correct terms, even when the politically correct term doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

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