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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
30 April 2020
4.51pm
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Dark Overlord
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lovelyritametermaid said
Errr no thanks-- and why just Western civilization? No offense, but that statement just sounds ridiculous to me. Anarchy is foolish and is never the answer.

I'm not fond of Eastern civilization but Western civilization is the one i live in.

As for Anarchy, it depends on how it's achieved. If it's achieved through a violent Revolution , then it'll likely fail but if it's achieved by the government declaring bankruptcy, then it'll likely work.

The lockdowns are a temporary solution as stated by health officials and epidemiologists on multiple occasions and is meant to be utilized as a tool to buy them more time while they work on finding a better solution to defeating the virus. And how are people supposed to even survive in lockdown mode with the economy and the government out of the works? People would frickin' starve and everything would just be utter chaos! And how are health officials and scientists supposed to do anything to aid in the dissipation of the pandemic if the economy is collapsed? If anything what you're wishing for will just make everything 10x worse.

The government gives everyone UBI until it can no longer sustain itself and has to declare bankruptcy and once they do so, everyone's free.

More people will die if Western civilization has to frickin' rebuild from the ground up if it collapses. A complete redo of civilization isn't going to do anything to help the dissipation of the pandemic-- Western civilization needs to stay intact now more than ever if this virus is to ever be defeated.

It'll take quite awhile for Western civilization to collapse and by then, the virus should be long gone.

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30 April 2020
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Firstly, DO, you're confusing anarchy with anarchism. Anarchism is a broad term for anti-authoritarian and anti-state political theory, anarchy is a broad term referring to simply disorder or chaos in the absence of the state. If you want to learn more about anarchism, I'd recommend this reading list, but I can assure you actual anarchists do not simply advocate for Mad Max-style chaos or the absence of government of any kind. In fact, the distinction between the state and government is one of the key tenets of anarchist theory. 

Secondly, although it pains me to align myself with those calling for an early end to lockdowns, the government cannot simply give out UBI forever. If the economy is not functioning then nobody will be paying taxes, and as such the government wouldn't be gaining revenue with which to make the payments, and something tells me that any government comprised of Democratic or Republican politicians isn't going to be too keen on taxing billionaires more to pay for it.

Maybe your plan is for governments to pay out so much in UBI that they bankrupt themselves and then collapse, leaving behind a space for nebulously-defined 'anarchy' to take its place. But in reality, unless this happened to a majority of world governments all in quick succession, all that would happen is that world powers like the US, Russia or China would simply step in and establish a puppet government loyal to themselves, as has happened so many times before when governments lose control of their economy and/or their territory. Now, anyone who knows me knows I am not the biggest fan of the USA, but would you really rather be under the rule of Russia or China? Their governments aren't exactly cuddly, even by Trump's standards. 

But even if another government didn't simply step in and sweep up, do you really think the present state of the US - or any country, for that matter - is one well positioned to right itself into a healthy society should the federal government collapse? You've said yourself that there is enormous wealth inequality, and there is also racial tensions, crumbling infrastructure, political polarisation, a population armed to the teeth, a lack of welfare provisions for the poorest in society, and oh, there's something I'm forgetting.... oh, that's it - a worldwide pandemic! You say the pandemic would be long gone by the time such a collapse would happen, but if you had a deteriorating healthcare system, collapsing infrastructure, massive homelessness and a lack of organisation to respond to these problems, it seems a resurgence in the virus, or the emergence of a new deadly virus, would be extremely likely. 

Basically, I'm failing to at all fathom how any of what you're proposing could possibly constitute an improvement to the world situation right now. 

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30 April 2020
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QuarryMan said
Firstly, DO, you're confusing anarchy with anarchism. Anarchism is a broad term for anti-authoritarian and anti-state political theory, anarchy is a broad term simply disorder or chaos in the absence of the state. If you want to learn more about anarchism, I'd recommend this reading list, but I can assure you actual anarchists do not simply advocate for Max Max-style chaos or the absence of government of any kind. In fact, the distinction between the state and government is one of the key tenets of anarchist theory.

Interesting, i never realized there was a difference.

Maybe your plan is for governments to pay out so much in UBI that they bankrupt themselves and then collapse, leaving behind a space for nebulously-defined 'anarchy' to take its place. But in reality, unless this happened to a majority of world governments all in quick succession, all that would happen is that world powers like the US, Russia or China would simply step in and establish a puppet government loyal to themselves, as has happened so many times before when governments lose control of their economy and/or their territory. Now, anyone who knows me knows I am not the biggest fan of the USA, but would you really rather be under the rule of Russia or China? Their governments aren't exactly cuddly, even by Trump's standards.

I'll admit that this would only be practical if the whole world did it simultaneously. As much as i dislike our 2 political parties, i'd rather have Trump or Biden any day over someone like Putin. Even if we got lucky and got Canada or the UK puppeting us, it ruins the whole point of deliberately driving ourselves to bankruptcy.

You've said yourself that there is enormous wealth inequality

This is due to our system of crony capitalism where the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer because the rich can afford to pass laws that benefit them.

and there is also racial tensions

This is due to a variety of factors but one of them is that the Democratic party fully embraces identity politics and calls people like Donald Trump Neo Nazis, which causes the far right to feel like they're being oppressed, creating genuine Neo Nazis who push the endless cycle.

political polarisation

But extending the lockdown "permanently" would fix that. While there's certainly a massive divide on how to deal with the virus, even the most far left statists will be begging for it to end by the time it finally does.

a lack of welfare provisions for the poorest in society, and oh, there's something I'm forgetting.... oh, that's it - a worldwide pandemic! You say the pandemic would be long gone by the time such a collapse would happen, but if you had a deteriorating healthcare system, collapsing infrastructure, massive homelessness and a lack of organisation to respond to these problems, it seems a resurgence in the virus, or the emergence of a new deadly virus, would be extremely likely.

While it may seem like an unusual stance from someone who's in favor of Medicare for all, a societal collapse would lead to the collapse of insurance, meaning that healthcare prices would become affordable. As for homelessness, without the government, there's nothing stopping you from bunking out in your local state house.

As for how we'd respond to the virus without government, i don't know. We could take a more Ron Paul stance and argue that it's up to each community to decide what to do but that has the downside of just turning our federal government into thousands of mini governments. Or we could let each person decide but that also comes with it's problems.

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1 May 2020
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I still can't see how collapsing the federal government would in any way solve the problems you're listing. Again, anti-state ideology has a long and rich tradition, and there is a huge amount of written work on how society might function in the absence of a state. However, these philosophies tend to place human need at the centre of what they're advocating for, while what you're describing would most likely lead to an incalculable amount of suffering. Do you really think 'you could bunk up in your state house' is a workable solution to mass homelessness? That's like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound. 

Like, yeah I'm not huge on the way both US parties use identity politics either (the Democrats seem to think having a diverse leadership team is somehow a substitute for actually beneficial policies, while the Republicans are no strangers to open bigotry), but I assure you, if you're worried about what Neo-Nazis might be up to, abolishing the government would literally just give them a free rein to do whatever they wanted without fear of reprisal, which is particularly dangerous in the US where groups like that are generally armed to the teeth. 

As for wealth inequality, I could see this going one of two ways - either the super-rich use their private armies to build their own gated mini cities, or as I said, another state like Russia or China steps in, who have some pretty spectacular wealth inequality of their own, and don't even have the advantage of basic democracy or worker's rights like the USA does. Again, it pains me to defend the US on these issues, given how lacklustre I think they are, but this would be a case of 'out of the frying pan, into the fire'. 

If you're interested in learning about historical opposition to the state, I'm pretty interested in this stuff, so I could recommend you some resources, but right now it just seems like you're proposing an incredible amount of risk in order to solve problems that would most likely all be worsened under your 'solution'. 

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Go to the Bir Tawil @Dark Overlord, then you can get your anarchy. Go there as soon as you can and live there. When you are there all alone, then you can bring up how anarchy is going since you would actually be living in one.

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Redirecting from elsewhere as this is a bit of a derail but I couldn't resist trying to clear up some low-hanging misinformation fruit (I love you, Fiddy, and that's why I do it. It's for your own good, my child).

@50yearslate said

They weren't the ones who dismissed the pandemic response team

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the pandemic response team was absorbed into other parts of governmental health agencies, part of some boring bureaucratic rejiggering, probably for budget reasons if I were to guess.

and released a flurry of contradictory statements and attitudes about the virus, including the fabrication of statistics, inaccurate comparisons to the flu

Fabrication of statistics? I'd not heard about that. Pray, where have you found these fabricated statistics? I'd genuinely be interested to know.

Based on more recent data I've heard about, the death rate is around the same as a bad flu... it's just that this particular virus spreads so much more easily than a regular bad flu, so more people are likely to get it and therefore more people are likely to die from it, just based on sheer numbers.

Anyway, hindsight is 2020... which is sadly ironic this year. a-hard-days-night-paul-10

the attempt to divert the country's attention from the federal government's shortcomings in the face of this disaster by racistly referring to coronavirus as a "Chinese Virus,"

Friendly reminder that China is not a race, it's a country. We name diseases after where they originate. Is Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome racist against Middle Easterns?

Also, to conflate the Chinese state with the Chinese people is even more laughably inaccurate and disrespectful than it would be to think of, say, Boris Johnson's Tory government as totally representative of all British people (who are most certainly not all one race. I see you, screaming Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish Celts) -- at least Brits have democratic processes in place and therefore have some say in who represents them, whereas the people of China (which is, actually, quite racially diverse, and also does not contain every ethnically Chinese person on earth) do not. It's exactly what the Chinese government wants you to think -- the party is the be all end all of the people and the people are in no way independent of their government. They like to pretend Taiwan doesn't exist as its own sovereign nation. IIRC Chinese people actually have two words for themselves: one for Chinese ethnicity, and one for Chinese nationality.

I do wish, sometimes, that, if President Trump is trying to make a point about the Chinese government (which I gather is the case), he would call it the CCP virus, as some are doing. Calling it the Chinese virus isn't helping the distinction between the ruling party and the people at all. He's not the clearest communicator (despite being Gemini, the sign of communication a-hard-days-night-george-10)... ahdn_paul_01

and of course the suggestion that we inject disinfectant into ourselves.

I hate to burst your bubble, but this is fake news: President Trump was merely asking a question at a press briefing whether it was possible to administer disinfectants internally, based on something he'd heard some expert texpert say in a presentation -- a bit of brain vomit, if you will, that the media blew far out of proportion. I hold that there's no such thing as a stupid question (Does the earth go around the sun? Is the earth actually round? Should women be able to vote? Are the Rolling Stones better than the Beatles? Okay, that last one actually is stupid ahdn_george_06), although the president absolutely did the wrong thing saying later that it was "sarcasm" (bruh wtf? That wasn't sarcasm, it was an honest, albeit absentminded, question. Liar).

So, yeah. I have such confidence in my knowledge that I didn't even put citations for anything (lol no I was just too lazy, it took me the better part of an hour to type up as it was), which of course means you should research every claim I make before you decide whether to believe me or not.

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11 May 2020
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Well, firstly, saying that Chinese isn't a race so therefore using the term 'Chinese virus' can't be inciting racism isn't exactly true. 'Chinese' can refer broadly to people who are citizens of China as well as people who are ethnically Chinese, but the latter use is pretty common, especially abroad. I go to a university with thousands of international students, many Chinese, and I've witnessed firsthand the way certain people started treating them as the virus became more serious. Do we know that the use of the term 'Chinese virus' increases such discrimination? No, but intuitively it's rather obvious that if the types likely to treat them this way have the connection between being Chinese and having the virus reinforced and validated by media and authority figures, it'll only encourage them. It's obviously unfair to hold the Chinese people to account for the actions of a government they have no control over as you said yourself, so why address the disease in a way that probably harms them? It's not like 'coronavirus' is a particularly hard term to memorise, is it...

And on the point about the disinfectant comment, your response doesn't really substantiate that it's fake news. Him basing it off 'something he heard an expert say', well, does he remember which expert, and when? Because I'd be seriously concerned if there were 'experts' going around saying this stuff. Yes, there are no stupid questions, but he's the President of the United States, and more to the point he has an army of extremely dedicated followers who treat everything he says like gospel. It is basic common sense that you shouldn't inject disinfectant into yourself, but if he had to ask the question, couldn't he have done so in a private meeting where his ignorance wouldn't have been broadcast to the whole world? I'm sure if a politician like AOC said a similar thing, the right wing press would have a field day, and rightly so. Is it that hard to accept that it's just a very dumb comment? For what it's worth, I think Trump is actually a lot smarter than most of his opponents make him out to be, but that doesn't mean he's immune to bouts of complete ignorance. 

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11 May 2020
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Beatlebug said
Fabrication of statistics? I'd not heard about that. Pray, where have you found these fabricated statistics? I'd genuinely be interested to know.

Based on more recent data I've heard about, the death rate is around the same as a bad flu... it's just that this particular virus spreads so much more easily than a regular bad flu, so more people are likely to get it and therefore more people are likely to die from it, just based on sheer numbers.

Anyway, hindsight is 2020... which is sadly ironic this year.a-hard-days-night-paul-10

But that's a serious problem. Out of ~328.2 million Americans, ~1.4 million have been confirmed to have the virus, which is a little under 1 in 200 Americans. And that's just out of those tested and confirmed. There's tons of people who are either asymptomatic or have a minor enough case that they don't bother to be tested. And sure, we've only had a little over 81.5 thousand deaths so far but many that survived had to go to (or are currently in) the hospital, crowding our hospitals and overwhelming our health care workers and putting them in situations where they can't save everyone they could've if there wasn't a pandemic.

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11 May 2020
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Using the term 'Chinese virus' has resulted in an uptake in harm towards Asian people so to use that term is encouraging harm to others. Stop it. It's COVID-19 or coronavirus. 

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11 May 2020
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We can also be big boys and girls and use the name that scientists gave it. 

 

We can also hope that governmental leaders would not be so stupid as to even voice potential treatments that could be used "and then I see disinfectant and is there a way in which we can do something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleaning 'cause you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number so that you're gonna have to use medical doctors with it but it sounds interesting to me".

 

He can say what he wants behind closed doors to his team but you can't say stuff like that in public because you have to assume everyone who is listening to you is an idiot, who will take whatever their President says as the truth.

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11 May 2020
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Beatlebug said

@50yearslate said
They weren't the ones who dismissed the pandemic response team

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the pandemic response team was absorbed into other parts of governmental health agencies, part of some boring bureaucratic rejiggering, probably for budget reasons if I were to guess.

If you don't even know what you're talking about, why even comment?

and released a flurry of contradictory statements and attitudes about the virus, including the fabrication of statistics, inaccurate comparisons to the flu

Fabrication of statistics? I'd not heard about that. Pray, where have you found these fabricated statistics? I'd genuinely be interested to know.

Based on more recent data I've heard about, the death rate is around the same as a bad flu... it's just that this particular virus spreads so much more easily than a regular bad flu, so more people are likely to get it and therefore more people are likely to die from it, just based on sheer numbers.

The death rate for influenza is 0.1 percent. I would appreciate a link to the data you've "heard about" that shows COVID-19 is around the same, because I can't find it.

Another thing to take into consideration is that this virus is brand new. We have no idea what the longterm consequences will look like, if any. This is not the same thing as the flu. 

and of course the suggestion that we inject disinfectant into ourselves.

I hate to burst your bubble, but this is fake news: President Trump was merely asking a question at a press briefing whether it was possible to administer disinfectants internally, based on something he'd heard some expert texpert say in a presentation -- a bit of brain vomit, if you will, that the media blew far out of proportion. I hold that there's no such thing as a stupid question (Does the earth go around the sun? Is the earth actually round? Should women be able to vote? Are the Rolling Stones better than the Beatles? Okay, that last one actually is stupid ahdn_george_06), although the president absolutely did the wrong thing saying later that it was "sarcasm" (bruh wtf? That wasn't sarcasm, it was an honest, albeit absentminded, question. Liar).

  

There is a such thing as a stupid question, and that was immensely stupid. Inject people with disinfectant? Wow, what a great idea president Trump former reality television star! Nobody in the history of medicine could have ever thought about something like that before! I wonder why that's not been done already.

Coming from a seven year old it wouldn't have been stupid, but Trump is not a young child. 

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11 May 2020
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Bloody hell, of all the people I thought I'd be agreeing with over the government's handling of corona, I never would have imagined it would be Piers Morgan. In this clip he tears our government's inadequacy to shreds with a vigour I can only dream that most of our "journalists" would be capable of. 

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11 May 2020
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Dark Overlord said
That sounds fair. If you want your freewill, you should have to give up your right to obtain medical services. This way, those who prefer safety will get it, those who prefer their freewill get it, and health care workers don't have to worry about surges of people needing medical assistance, putting both their lives and their patients lives at risk.

Add UBI and free Medicare into the equation for those who prefer their safety and we can create a scenario where practically everyone's self quarantining without the need for a government lockdown.

I really like this idea. Put trackers on every single American citizen and track where they go and whether or not they are quarantining and following the suggestions. Maybe even put a camera on them so we can know if they're wearing masks when they should and washing their hands often. The people who don't listen are kept from getting medical attention. We could take out a bunch of stupid people without resorting to eugenics and it would keep the hospitals from getting overwhelmed. A win win solution, I'd say. 

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11 May 2020
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The problem with that is that monitoring everyone with cameras would be a clear violation of their right to privacy, although we could monitor only those who don't sign the freedom waiver, since those who sign have made it clear that they're not afraid of dying.

Sadly, most states have taken the route of waiting until there was a confirmed case in their state, shutting non-essential businesses, blaming the people for the continued spread of the virus, creating impossible to enforce stay at home orders (people still have to go to their essential jobs), still blaming the people, slowly reopening despite more new cases, getting pissed off at the possibility of having to do another stay at home order and STILL blaming the people, and while it's only happened to one state so far, it's likely many more will reenact their stay at home order, continually blaming the people until the virus is over and they lose power because the people they blamed for spreading the virus voted for the other guy.

And this was all done without UBI or rent freeze in many areas, meaning that many of these people had to hope unemployment could pay the bills.

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We already gave away that right when we got cellphone gps and exchanged free internet for data collection.

 

As for unemployment, in the US it is a joke. Pretty much everyone who goes on it has some kinda issue and it can take months before you see any money at all. A few friends gave it up as a bad job and went out to work cause they still got rent to pay.

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Beatlebug said
Redirecting from elsewhere as this is a bit of a derail but I couldn't resist trying to clear up some low-hanging misinformation fruit (I love you, Fiddy, and that's why I do it. It's for your own good, my child).

@50yearslate said

They weren't the ones who dismissed the pandemic response team

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the pandemic response team was absorbed into other parts of governmental health agencies, part of some boring bureaucratic rejiggering, probably for budget reasons if I were to guess.

Do you have a source on this? Because you really don't sound very certain. "I could be wrong" "I'm pretty sure" and "if I were to guess" are not enough to convince me I was wrong, I'm sorry.

and released a flurry of contradictory statements and attitudes about the virus, including the fabrication of statistics, inaccurate comparisons to the flu

Fabrication of statistics? I'd not heard about that. Pray, where have you found these fabricated statistics? I'd genuinely be interested to know.

This was a few months ago, before quarantine. If I remember correctly, he made some kind of statement where he said the death rate was less than one percent when it was I think about two, at the time? Also, here is an article with some other coronavirus-related factual inaccuracies.

Based on more recent data I've heard about, the death rate is around the same as a bad flu... it's just that this particular virus spreads so much more easily than a regular bad flu, so more people are likely to get it and therefore more people are likely to die from it, just based on sheer numbers.

"Since the 1970s, between 3,000 and 49,000 people have died from the flu each year."

Wheras United States coronavirus deaths are currently in the 80,000s, and it's only been a few months. Unless you are being very, very generous with your rounding, they are not around the same. As for the coronavirus spreading more easily, is that true? I thought the reason it was dangerous is that there is no cure, treatment, or vaccine, and as the country was relatively unprepared for the arrival of a pandemic, there is a fear that the disease will spread so quickly that there will be more sickened people in need of healthcare than there are people and resources to treat them. Hence "flattening the curve."

Anyway, hindsight is 2020... which is sadly ironic this year. a-hard-days-night-paul-10

I am confused by this statement. Are you referring to the 2020 vision meme?

the attempt to divert the country's attention from the federal government's shortcomings in the face of this disaster by racistly referring to coronavirus as a "Chinese Virus,"

Friendly reminder that China is not a race, it's a country. We name diseases after where they originate. Is Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome racist against Middle Easterns?

Does that make it less racist, though? Friendly reminder that the disease is NOT named the Chinese Virus, it's named Covid-19 or the coronavirus. Does purposefully associating a deadly virus that has thrown the world into catastrophe with a specific ethnicity qualify as racism? I suppose it's up to you.

Also, to conflate the Chinese state with the Chinese people is even more laughably inaccurate and disrespectful than it would be to think of, say, Boris Johnson's Tory government as totally representative of all British people (who are most certainly not all one race. I see you, screaming Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish Celts) -- at least Brits have democratic processes in place and therefore have some say in who represents them, whereas the people of China (which is, actually, quite racially diverse, and also does not contain every ethnically Chinese person on earth) do not. It's exactly what the Chinese government wants you to think -- the party is the be all end all of the people and the people are in no way independent of their government. They like to pretend Taiwan doesn't exist as its own sovereign nation. IIRC Chinese people actually have two words for themselves: one for Chinese ethnicity, and one for Chinese nationality.

Do you think the Trumpers hearing that statement are bothering to keep these distinctions in mind? I doubt it. As Starr Shine so kindly pointed out,

Starr Shine? said

Using the term 'Chinese virus' has resulted in an uptake in harm towards Asian people so to use that term is encouraging harm to others. Stop it. It's COVID-19 or coronavirus. 

I do wish, sometimes, that, if President Trump is trying to make a point about the Chinese government (which I gather is the case), he would call it the CCP virus, as some are doing. Calling it the Chinese virus isn't helping the distinction between the ruling party and the people at all. He's not the clearest communicator (despite being Gemini, the sign of communication a-hard-days-night-george-10)... ahdn_paul_01

As long as we're gathering, I think he was trying to distract his critics from the disaster that is the coronavirus situation and the way his administration is handling it by calling the virus something he knew would be interpreted as controversial. But that certainly doesn't make it okay.

and of course the suggestion that we inject disinfectant into ourselves.

I hate to burst your bubble, but this is fake news: President Trump was merely asking a question at a press briefing whether it was possible to administer disinfectants internally, based on something he'd heard some expert texpert say in a presentation -- a bit of brain vomit, if you will, that the media blew far out of proportion.

Now you're really grasping at straws. The man asked if we could INJECT DISINFECTANT INTO OUR VEINS. IN PUBLIC. ON TELEVISION. He's the President of the United States. He's not a doctor or a scientist. (He's an idiot, but that's not my point.) Furthermore, if you are suggesting that real doctors and scientists somehow suggested that injecting disinfectant was a valid solution, I think that is highly unlikely and demand to see some proof. Either way, hospitals have enough to worry about right now without people showing up after drinking bleach. 

Here's the clip.

I hold that there's no such thing as a stupid question (Does the earth go around the sun? Is the earth actually round? Should women be able to vote? Are the Rolling Stones better than the Beatles? Okay, that last one actually is stupid ahdn_george_06), although the president absolutely did the wrong thing saying later that it was "sarcasm" (bruh wtf? That wasn't sarcasm, it was an honest, albeit absentminded, question. Liar).

I do think there's such a thing as a stupid question. And sometimes, it's okay to ask stupid questions. Sometimes, it's fine. Just not during a national press briefing, spoken by the President of the United States.

So, yeah. I have such confidence in my knowledge that I didn't even put citations for anything (lol no I was just too lazy, it took me the better part of an hour to type up as it was), which of course means you should research every claim I make before you decide whether to believe me or not.

  

 I've spent a fair bit of time typing my response and researching it, and I have a lot of AP studying to do, so forgive me if I don't fact-check all your claims for you.

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@50yearslate Completely agree, but I think Bebu's point was that if you catch covid-19, you're about as likely to die as you would be with the flu, not that the total annual death toll is going to be the same. The reason the latter is so much higher for covid-19 is because it's so much more contagious, though the other factors you mentioned obviously influence this as well. This is measured by the R metric, which represents the number of people an average person infects - for covid-19 the R is around 2.2*. This makes coronavirus more contagious than the flu. 

Is this point true, though? Well, it's hard to tell because although the CDC estimates that between 29,000 and 59,000 die from the flu in the US each flu season*, it's less clear how many people in total catch it. By that metric, coronavirus has already hit much worse in the US in just three months, though of course we won't properly know yet just how bad it'll get. 

* Source: https://www.businessinsider.co.....&IR=T

** Source: https://www.health.com/conditi.....every-year

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QuarryMan said
@50yearslate Completely agree, but I think Bebu's point was that if you catch covid-19, you're about as likely to die as you would be with the flu, not that the total annual death toll is going to be the same. The reason the latter is so much higher for covid-19 is because it's so much more contagious, though the other factors you mentioned obviously influence this as well. This is measured by the R metric, which represents the number of people an average person infects - for covid-19 the R is around 2.2*. This makes coronavirus more contagious than the flu. 

Oh that makes sense!! Thank you for the clarification 🙂

Is this point true, though? Well, it's hard to tell because although the CDC estimates that between 29,000 and 59,000 die from the flu in the US each flu season*, it's less clear how many people in total catch it. By that metric, coronavirus has already hit much worse in the US in just three months, though of course we won't properly know yet just how bad it'll get. 

* Source: https://www.businessinsider.co.....&IR=T

** Source: https://www.health.com/conditi.....every-year

  

Maybe if we didn't have such advanced flu treatments/vaccines the death rates would be similar. Who knows? I think it's made clear that coronavirus is generally much more dangerous than the flu, though, seeing as we don't really have effective ways of treating it or a vaccine to protect ourselves from it.

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I remember reading earlier in the year that it'd be 2021 before a vaccine was developed, though maybe with so many resources being poured into it it'll happen faster than that. We've also gotta hope that some selfish prick doesn't develop it in a private lab and then claim the intellectual property rights and make millions of selling governments the right to use it. 

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^that would suck, but it would be preferable to no vaccine at all ahdn_paul_01

It would also be nice if people seemed to be developing immunity after getting it, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

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