Raymond Jones played a small but pivotal role in The Beatles’ history. He was the man who, on Saturday 28 October 1961, ordered a copy of the group’s single ‘My Bonnie’ from the NEMS shop at 12-14 Whitechapel, Liverpool. Jones was served by Brian Epstein, who at the time ran the store’s record department.
Epstein’s curiosity was piqued after Jones told him about The Beatles, and on 9 November 1961 he paid a visit to the Cavern Club to watch them perform. So began a chain of event which let to him managing the group, securing them a record deal and steering them to worldwide fame.
In later years, Epstein’s assistant at NEMS, Alistair Taylor, claimed that Raymond Jones never existed, and that he had invented the character so that the record could be ordered into the store. Taylor’s story was refuted by the Cavern Club’s DJ, Bob Wooler, and Liverpudlian writer and broadcaster Spencer Leigh.
In August 2010 Raymond Jones left a comment on this site’s profile of him, along with an email address. We contacted him to see if he’d be willing to be interviewed, and corresponded by telephone and email. During those conversations he spoke of his time in Liverpool, his memories of The Beatles and Brian Epstein, and why he’d rarely come forward to set the record straight. Here’s what he told us.
The Beatles legend has it that in 1961 you were 18, and a printer’s apprentice from Huyton. Is this correct?
In his book A Cellarful Of Noise, Brian Epstein described me as an 18-year-old leather jacketed youth. I must have looked younger than my actual years. I was born on 21 June 1941, so I must have been 20 at the time. By the way, my friend and I Ron Billingsley wore leather jackets well before we ever saw or had even heard of The Beatles. I rode pillion on Ron’s motorbike.
I worked for a small printing company KB Print, which originated over Rigby’s pub in Dale Street. It later moved to Tithebarn Street. My address at that time was 48 Stonefield Road, Dovecot, Liverpool 14. Dovecot was only a couple of short bus stops away from Knotty Ash Village Hall.
How did you first hear about The Beatles?
I was a regular visitor to the lunchtime sessions at the Cavern in Mathew Street. I worked about a five minute walk away in Dale Street. My boss didn’t mind how long I stayed there as long as I made the time up in the evening. I suppose I was very lucky.
The first time I saw The Beatles I was totally blown away. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing and watching. It was a sound I had never heard before. Pete Best was the drummer then; he used to sing ‘Matchbox’, a Carl Perkins song, and being a keen Perkins fan I was intrigued to see how they played the chord sequences.
One particular day Bob Wooler, the DJ from the Cavern, came into my place of work to have some tickets printed so I asked him where they were playing next. He said he’d let me know when he picked up the tickets, which I took to mean he’d find out the time and venue and tell me.
When he came in to pick the tickets up he opened the package and gave me two, which he signed so I could get free entry to the venue. The show was at Knotty Ash Village Hall. After that I started to follow The Beatles to most of the venues they played in the evenings. You could say I was totally hooked.
Joe, this is incredible!
Raymond Jones, I’m glad to know that not only are you real person, but you are healthy and happy. Thank you for sharing your story. God bless!
Thanks Skye. I was so grateful that Ray agreed to take part in the interview. He’s got a great story to tell, and it’s a shame that so many Beatles books and documentaries have it wrong.
“Either there is a Raymond Jones or I made it up.”
-What actually happened?
He made it up.
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Okay, what?? Am I reading this wrong, or was it mistranscribed? Because it reads as though Jones is claiming that Alistair Taylor DID indeed make him up!
Or did he only mean that Taylor “made up” the Radio Merseyside call; or maybe just invented the detail about Jones’ drunkenness during the call? Either way, that’s a confusing passage.
It was unclear, you’re right. My fault for not making a better job of the edit. Ray meant that Taylor made up the story of inventing the phantom order at NEMS.
OK, gotcha. Thanks Joe!
Wondered why Alistair had been wiped from collective Beatle memory in the Anthology, not even one notation about his existence. Thanks for clearing it up.
I am really pleased that Alistair Taylor’s version has been put to bed. Well done, Joe.
Having said that, I saw a re-run of the Arena programme on Epstein the other night, and still find it hard to believe that after successfully running the record department at Nems for five years or so by that time, he was completely unaware either of the Cavern or of the Beatles… Is Liverpool city centre so vast?
Well, for a start neither Taylor nor Epstein were particularly interested in rock ‘n’ roll. Secondly, The Beatles hadn’t properly released a single – My Bonnie was a German import. Thirdly, Bill Harry (of Mersey Beat fame) suggests Epstein probably was aware of The Beatles as he wrote a column for Mersey Beat, but it wasn’t until Raymond ordered My Bonnie that he took proper notice.
back then, Brian was quite well to do. He probably didn’t usually associate with the teenage scene.. Thats why he may not of known of the cavern etc?.. Just a thought.
This is an awesome story!!! Thanks for Sharing Mr. Jones!! Great work Joe!
Great interview Joe – nicely done. This is reason 1,000,001 why I love this site!
An excellent interview Joe! I remember felling a little let down when I read Alistair Taylor’s account that the whole requesting the “My Bonnie” record was faked. My faith has now been restored. This is one story of folklore and legend I’m glad is absolutely true!
I’m so pleased for Ray that the true story has come out, and that you’ve been able to get the message and interview over so well on this website.
I read this article with your heartfelt honest attitude to the fact.
Thank you, Joe and Mr. Raymond Jones.
Excellent stuff Joe! When I first saw the ‘exclusive interview’ title I had to do a double take. Who next then, George Martin…..Macca????!!
I worked with Ray back in 73-74 and I aways knew the truth. I mentioned him to Pete Best and he said “you know he exists” I told him I used to work for him.
This is a great interview and the significance of Mr. Jones’ existance in the history of the Beatles cannot be denied. He appears to be a modest individual. Certainly he has considered the chain of events could have been drasticly different had he not been part of the picture?
Not necessarily Dave. Bob Wooler was promoting the single quite a bit in the Cavern so it is probable that someone would have ordered the record eventually, is it not?
Fantastico – a great piece doing justice to the man and the myth..
As an academic and historian, as well as being a huge Beatles fan, this story hightlights well the problems facing any agreed or ‘true’ account of the Beatles’ incredible story.
I once saw Alistair Taylor at a Beatles convention (1991), and he struck me as being as a slightly histrionic figure then. Having read nearly all the memoirs of Beatle friends and associates, it seems many of them were as affected by fame as the Beatles themselves. Certainly there is a lot of self promotion in many of the accounts.
So it is more than welcome to read an account that blows away the myths and self promotion, although I had already read Spencer Leigh’s account in Mojo so it wasn’t entirely new to me.
Brilliant stuff, and thank you Raymond!
Hello James its good to have read that you thought Alistair Taylor was slightly histrionic. You will most probably have read my account of the story but, if I can help you with any questions you may have I will certainly try to answer them.
Regards,
Raymond Jones
Hi Raymond
Sorry to take so long in replying, but I haven’t been back on the site for a while.
I’d love to write an authoritative account of the early history of the Beatles, or more realistically an overview of the books that have been written about them, but I have research projects lined up for about the next 5 years so I doubt it will happen. What just occurred to me is that you ought to be in touch with Mark Lewisohn who has been commissioned to write the definite history, just so you can set this story straight, as well as providing more detail about those important and formative years the Bealtes had just before they made it big. I don’t know him myself, but if I can get in touch with him via his publisher would you be interested? Does anyone have contact details for Lewisohn?
I sent Mark a link to this interview but I don’t know if he saw it – I never received a reply. The first volume of his Beatles biography is complete though.
Hello Once again James,
I would be delighted if my story is included in Mark Lewishon’s Beatles Biography. All I want is the actual truth to be told. I will help him anyway I can.
Hi Raymond, I’ve just read the interview you’ve done here, Im totally blown away by the fact they attempted to fabricate what they did about your existence, its just incredible really, I just wanted to ask you what you actually thought of the boys themselves, did they stand out above the rest of the groups a lot? and if so what was it that particularly grabbed you with the live music they produced?Im a musician myself and a big fan of that scene in Liverpool at the time, I also realise that the beatles were also one of many groups playing hard around Merseyside at the time, for someone like yourself to pick up on them above other groups is interesting, you obviously had to hold down your job and fit the performances in when you could, it must have been a real buzz! incidentally, you mentioned seeing George in having a drink with his dad, did you ever see John around town and if so where would he hang out, the pub in dale street maybe too?Ive been to the grapes but Im sure they went else where too! Thanks for being so open about your experience you really have put the story finally into place and I understand you wanting to remain quiet all those years too, it does seem many associated with the beatles story can end up sad figures, you obviously are not and good on you for it all! Best wishes James
Did you play in or form a band in this era?
I have just recently come back from Roda in Spain where I met Raymond Jones, what a facinating guy. He told me some stories that could not be repeated in any books as he couldnt afford to be sued!!
He is now a sprightly 71 years old now and I am going back out in a few months to meet him for a few beers and listen to more of his fantastic srories
Fantastic story! How Raymond kept quiet for so many years is beyond me.
Raymond Jones is my uncle and Kenny Johnson is my Grandad, I recently found this page and story as my grandad Kenny sadly passed away recently and I am so moved and amazed by this story and what a great piece of family history for me to have and cherish forever thankyou Love Kayleigh x
I have loved reading all these comments. Kayleigh – you are part of an incredible story – I am sorry about your Grandad.
To Raymond – thank you for your comments. I met Bob Wooler loads of times in the 1980s and always, always thought he was the real deal. Now I know you are too!
That’s a great story. There should be a “Raymond Jones St.” in Liverpool one day – so everybody would be in no doubt he exists!!! Long live Mr. Jones!!!
What a brilliant article.
Well I have to say I’m not totally convinced either way. If I was the real Raymond Jones I’m pretty sure I’d have a rough idea what happened to my copy of such a monumental record / book. I can see motive for Taylor not wishing to explode the myth until later years but unsure why some until now unknown would hold back for so many years since first appearing on radio (if he actually did) Maybe we’ll never get to know the ultimate truth. Shame really but interesting stories either way.
For what it’s worth, Mark Lewisohn calls Raymond Jones’ story “verifiably accurate” in his new Beatles biography. And I contacted Spencer Leigh (BBC Radio Merseyside) before interviewing Ray, to check that he was the real deal. He confirmed everything was genuine, including the radio appearance.
Way too many inconsistencies and holes in both Taylor’s and Jones’ accounts. Shame there is no hard evidence backing up either story – where is the signed book and single? How did the letter from NEMS to neighbour become separated from them and ‘saved’? Suppose we’ll never know.
I agree, to many inconsistencies, one of the great Beatles mysteries that may never be solved.
The story is quite believable, but why he didn’t post some current photos? That’s strange also because he could make a lot of money telling his story.
Not everyone is governed by the love of money. And Raymond seems to have done well enough for himself out of ‘life’.
Strange, there is no trace that Kenny Johnson ever played with Mark Peters and the Cyclones . I’ve found 4 different lead guitar players in that group, but not Kenny Johnson (aka Sonny Webb).
Often wondered if this is the same guy we’d often meet on Prescot Road and knew as ‘Record Ray’. Also, does anyone know if George Harrison ( ‘ Az ‘ ) ever recorded “Dream ( when you’re feeling blue” ) , as he often sang it when I asked him to give my girlfriend a mention.
Snippets of history like this are gems to treasure.
Has there ever been a detailed documentary of the very early years of the Beatles shot at actual locations? This type of story would merit inclusion.
Between Mark Lewisohn and this site – and Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr – it would be compulsive viewing for Beatle fans across the world, and it would be good for Liverpool too.
i have been hearing this story for as long as i can remember , i have been listening to the Beatles since i was born . My father was Kenny Johnson who did most definitely play in a band called the cyclones (i have a photo) and Ray Jones is my uncle . I am sure of one thing . They don’t tell lies . They have no need to . Have some people heard of the word modesty ?
Hi Shirley,
There was also a Kenny Johnson who was a famous country and western singer on Merseyside. He sang in the group the Hillsiders and Northwind and presented a country and western show on Radio Merseyside.
I presume he was a different Kenny Johnson and not your dad ? People may be getting the 2 mixed up.
“When the superior man acts effortlessly and naturally, his force is felt for a thousand miles.” – Tao Te Ching.
Don’t criticize Raymond Jones for having lost the ‘My Bonnie’ record and the Brian Epstein book. Everybody has stuff they bought when young that they had little or no interest in later in life only to have somebody else throw away. That is what happened to my complete set of Beatles cards, Man From UNCLE cards, baseball cards and who knows what else that I bought in the sixties, and did not concern myself with in the seventies. It all got tossed. Now I cannot afford to buy it all back because it is worth too much. Besides, what about that notebook full of songs that John and Paul wrote way back when that Michael McCartney photographed? John and Paul did not keep up with it as they moved on. So somebody must have thought it was rubbish and threw it all away. Talk about priceless! I’m surprised people are not digging in the Liverpool landfill with hands and shovels trying to find it.
They’d be looking in the wrong place. Jane Asher threw it away in London, as reported in Hunter Davies’s book.
True. I had a signed copy of Yoko Ono’s book, Grapefruit.
My sister ‘lent’ it to someone.
Great.
Just found this story and really pleased it is apparently true. I had heard the later story it was made up, which disappointed me as a life long Beatles fan. I have myself sadly given away and lost some memorabilia, records that I wish I could get back, due to moving house,divorce etc. I can believe the story and am glad to hear from the man himself, shame there isn’t a film of him telling the story anywhere for posterity.
very cool, credit where credit is due
There’s a reference to TV Show Scene host Bill Grundy… is this the same Bill Grundy who had the Today show and infamously ended his career by interviewing the Sex Pistols? He would be the right age and hailed from the northwest of England, which puts him in the right area to be hosting a TV show in the early 60s.
“I still have the letter Epstein’s secretary sent to my neighbour, it’s the only proof I have that it was me who went into NEMS.”
You don’t have any proof. Because there is no proof. Simply because one cannot say A without showing B. It’s actually that simple.
PS
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Beat
The wiki article shows the Beatles 2 januari 1962. On the cover. How can it possibly be that Eppy didn’t know who there on 28 obtober 1961?
And then again, he sold records. He sold Mersey Beat. I won’t discuss the content of previous Mersey Beat issues for the moment being; the only thing I see is a genuine letter. That letter states Mr. Epstein is searching for someone called Raymond Jones. Addressed to Miss Quinn. Who is also a genuine person.
My theory is that Miss Quinn read the book. She thought she knew who Raymond Jones was. It was her neighbour. Raymond confirmed and that’s why there is a letter. The secretary to Mr. Epstein questioned their boss.
Now Mr. Epstein had to tell the truth or just send Mr. Jones a copy. Little wonder Mr. Jones doesn’t have this copy; would a person like Mr. Epstein, after all his effort, sign this book “Best wishes, Brian Epstein.”
Just like the other copies Brian signed? Not a personal note? Why was he looking for Raymond Jones then? Makes no sense. And if there was a copy signed and addressed to Mr. Jones.. what (historical) value would it have?
A key document. Mr. Epstein must have been very amused. I think he was a funny man. No need for making funny stories up about him though. He was the man. After all.
I remember reading a story in a Beatles book which claimed that prior to the boys breaking America an American girl had requested a local Detroit radio station play one of their ‘Swan’ released records. It was claimed this was the first time ever that an American had requested the Beatles. Although I can’t remember her alleged name, the article did name her. Could this be the mythical request which Taylor may have been responsible for and which he later confused with the the legitimate Jones story?
I think the truth is that Bob Wooler was a pivotal figure in the early Beatles story, and then he was kind of massaged out, cast off, and so Raymond Jones was erased from the story too. But I’m so glad to hear from him! And his irritation at Brian misrepresenting him as a scruffy, leather-jacked lad rings very true. That does seem patronizing. Once Brian took over, Brian constructed the narrative. Including trying to pretend that John wasn’t married with a young child, etc. How bitter was Bob Wooler in later years? It would be interesting to know! He did so much to publicize the Beatles, early on. And clearly he thought he and Lennon (and maybe McCartney) were kindred spirits. But it’s interesting that the Beatles had these two slightly older gay men who were each instrumental in making them famous!
Hi My Name is Colin Craven .
I live in Murcia Spain now and have done for the last four years .
Some months ago along with my colleague We installed an air conditioning unit at the home of an couple who originated from Liverpool .
Today we were back at the same property to instal a water heater .
On this visit today I noticed a photograph in the kitchen of the Beatles , I asked Sylvia if that was them in the cavern , I was then so pleased and amazed when she told me it was and then pointed herself out to me on the photo .
Ray then told me his story , as a sixties child and life long Beatles fan I was blown away by the ( nowhere man’s ) story .
I had read A cellar full of noise and many other Beatles books through the years but couldn’t remember this story .
I genuinely felt honoured to have heard this story from Ray and Sylvia personally.
I knew Ray and I heard he passed in 12/21.
Colin,
Yes the so called ‘myth’ of Raymond Jones as you know is true and myself having been married to
Ray’s younger sister Pauline for over 43 yrs+ well what can I say…yes ‘The Nowhere Man’ who is literally part of the Beatles history..sadly missed