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Yoko Ono
7 January 2019
9.25pm
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sir walter raleigh
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I see a more similar comparison between Yoko and Linda. Fans of Paul and John often hate on their wives for their contributions to their husband’s music. The difference I see is that Paul gave Linda songwriting credits starting in 1971. Paul, while alive, decided to give Linda credit for his songs. Yoko, decades after John’s death is trying to take credit for herself. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

7 January 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said

I really didn't want to get into this but I'm sorry, I have to interject.

I'm sorry, preferring someone over someone else is racist? That's the weirdest argument I've ever heard. I prefer(ed) Steven Hawking over Neil deGrasse Tyson, but that's got nothing to do with race, only that I prefer Hawking's wit over Tyson's. 

Also, sexism? We're talking about 2 cis-women here, that cannot be a factor.

Not to say I'm anti-Yoko, I definitely appreciate her work, but it's not up my alley.   

I believe it is sexist because sexist men expect women to linger in the background like Cynthia, while often criticizing feminist women who speak out and assert themselves such as Yoko.

I never said that all people who prefer Cynthia display this attitude.

The racism is there as an undertone. People saw Yoko as “foreign” and therefore a corrupting influence, while Cynthia was accepted because she was white, and therefore white Beatles fans identified with her. 

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

7 January 2019
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sir walter raleigh said
I see a more similar comparison between Yoko and Linda. Fans of Paul and John often hate on their wives for their contributions to their husband’s music. The difference I see is that Paul gave Linda songwriting credits starting in 1971. Paul, while alive, decided to give Linda credit for his songs. Yoko, decades after John’s death is trying to take credit for herself.   

That’s not exactly true. This is another example of how whatever Yoko does, she gets hated for it.

John began speaking out about giving Yoko credit just before he was assasinated. I’ve heard some of the interviews.

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"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

7 January 2019
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Wigwam said

I don't think I've wished you a happy New Year ET..So hope you have a good one.  

Same to you.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

7 January 2019
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I believe it is sexist because sexist men expect women to linger in the background like Cynthia, while often criticizing feminist women who speak out and assert themselves such as Yoko.

I never said that all people who prefer Cynthia display this attitude.

The racism is there as an undertone. People saw Yoko as “foreign” and therefore a corrupting influence, while Cynthia was accepted because she was white, and therefore white Beatles fans identified with her.   

'ists' and 'isms'.......Were certainly more commonly around at the time....More of the 'ists' than the 'isms' I'd guess in the late 60's. I'd agree it would have been a factor.....But now reconstructed men, stripped of their toxic masculinity who follow the party line abound, and the PC culture prevails....Liberals are in control as the new thought police and censors....Yet still Yoko's art is critized ........Rightly so in my unreconstructed, knuckles dragging along the ground view. 

Linda was white and foreign ...One should have counted the other out by your reckoning, yet she still came in for criticism. (A little too harshly in my opinion).... ..........But because she wasn't a very good musician. People had a point.......

Perhaps you can see for all my shortcomings that......I just don't like Yoko's burbling..... The guttural squeaks and screeches emanating from her tonsils are the equivalent to fingernails being dragged down a chalkboard to me.....And the world, however undeserving of her it is in your opinion would be a better place without it....In my opinion.

I'll re-state my central point....As eloquently as I can....

If Yoko was as crucial a collaborator to John's work as she appears now to be claiming, why is that her own songs are crap? 

John's other collaborators in her band, (as you call her your favourite Beatle) Paul and George continued to do rather well without him.

 

Again please don't take any of this as personal......Just my style.

And lastly.....I always fancied Yoko...If that's anything.

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7 January 2019
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Expert Textpert said

That’s not exactly true. This is another example of how whatever Yoko does, she gets hated for it.

John began speaking out about giving Yoko credit just before he was assasinated. I’ve heard some of the interviews.  

I’ve read the same interviews. Yet Yoko still wants more for herself. In my eyes there is no way around this being a complete garbage move on her part. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

8 January 2019
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Excellent on-topic discussion ... in the most appropriate thread. This is what makes a mod happy.

Again, I apologize for not moving the conversation earlier so that we could have avoided some of the unnecessary posts that happened.

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8 January 2019
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@Wigwam you conveniently only mention the songs where Yoko makes non-verbal sounds, but she has written lyrics to many of her own songs and carries a tune. I just don't buy this argument, especially from someone who "fancies Yoko." If you fancy Yoko, you should know that she has songs with melodies. She isn't always pitch perfect, but then many singers aren't. Take for example Ian Curtis of Joy Division, and yet you never hear people making fun of him or hating him in the same way Yoko is made fun of...could it be because he is a white man?

I find your argument just as disingenuous as @sir walter raleigh's argument that her statements are less credible than Paul's because she can't write a melody (musical ability and truthfulness have no connection).

I agree that the "new left" has gone overboard with censorship and correctness, but Yoko is still hated as a carry-over from a previous age. There have been positive critical reassessments of Yoko's work, all you have to do is google Yoko Ono to find them.

People just continue to hate her has a mass mind, "herd" kind of emotional reaction.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

8 January 2019
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As for Linda...

No one hated Jane Asher because she was British, respectable and culturally sophisticated.

I would guess Linda was seen as something of a vulgarian, being American, a rock photographer, and without musical training.

Add to that the jealousy factor.

But the hate was nowhere near what Yoko received and still does.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

8 January 2019
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Expert Textpert said
I agree that the "new left" has gone overboard with censorship and correctness, but Yoko is still hated as a carry-over from a previous age. There have been positive critical reassessments of Yoko's work, all you have to do is google Yoko Ono to find them.

Again I have to butt in with a comment here...

As what you would describe as a 'new left', I'm certainly not at all a Yoko hater as I said earlier. Don't make generalisations in an argument, they're more trouble than they're worth.

Also, not all of the 'new left' go overboard with censorship and correctness, but as is always the case, one or two people that do something make a negative view of the entire field. I'm sure not all of those right-wingers don't care about young people like myself being able to afford a house when I'm older because most 60 or 70 year olds have 4 each (exaggeration), but it seems like that because one rotten egg can spoil the entire heap.

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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8 January 2019
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I just came across this book while selecting books to order for my library: Fractured Fandoms: Contentious Communication in Fan Communities

Being a fan helps people to discover their identities, find friends, develop a sense of belonging, express themselves creatively, and act as powerful creators and participants in a capitalistic system. At times, however, being a fan becomes problematic, especially when clashes with other fans occur both inside and outside of their fandoms and fan communities. As their communication becomes contentious, power imbalances destabilize collectives and fans experience fear, sadness, pain, and harassment. Such problematic situations can become “fractured fandoms.” Fractured Fandoms: Contentious Communication in Fan Communities observes the problems or fractures that occur within and between fandoms as fans and fan communities experience differences in interpretation, opinion, expectation, and behavior regarding the object at the center of their fandom. 

Reminded me of this thread.

I know...I should stay-on-topic

8 January 2019
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Nof exactly on topic, but I still identify as a leftist, and I am in favor of socialist programs and redistribution of wealth.

However, I am not a fan of what I call the “new left,” and I am not referring strictly to young people here.

One reason I don’t post on Facebook anymore is that I have been castigated by feminists and new leftists who I BASICALLY AGREE WITH, but they are so focused on how people should use the right words or how they should agree 100% with what is considered correct that they end up unfriending and/or ganging up on people who could be their allies.

It is this “us versus them,” “you’re with us or against us” attitude that I can’t get behind. I am not automatically a rich, misogynist oppressor because I happen to be a white male over the age of 40.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

8 January 2019
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Expert Textpert - A good deal of hatred, including physical assault, was displayed by fans towards Cynthia, Jane, Patti and Maureen. A good deal of misogyny towards them is still evidenced in puerile YouTube comments. Comments, of which there are many, including yours, as Jane Asher being British, "posh", respectable and culturally sophisticated, without seeing the human being underneath, are putdowns in themselves. Your understanding of British life and culture appears to be nil. Stop using Yoko and Linda's nationalities as an excuse. It was their sheer presumption that caused them to be disliked, particularly Yoko's. And if you replaced Yoko with Tracey Emin, another controversial performance artist, also white, English and female, you could be guaranteed there would be as much venom directed towards her as that towards Yoko. The real reason why Cynthia et al were viewed more positively was because they gave John, Paul, George and Ringo the creative freedom to be The Beatles, and of course, the freedom for them to f**k themselves around the globe while they stayed at home rearing their children.

8 January 2019
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Expert Textpert said
@Wigwam you conveniently only mention the songs where Yoko makes non-verbal sounds, but she has written lyrics to many of her own songs and carries a tune. I just don't buy this argument, especially from someone who "fancies Yoko." If you fancy Yoko, you should know that she has songs with melodies. She isn't always pitch perfect, but then many singers aren't. Take for example Ian Curtis of Joy Division, and yet you never hear people making fun of him or hating him in the same way Yoko is made fun of...could it be because he is a white man?

I find your argument just as disingenuous as @sir walter raleigh's argument that her statements are less credible than Paul's because she can't write a melody (musical ability and truthfulness have no connection).

I agree that the "new left" has gone overboard with censorship and correctness, but Yoko is still hated as a carry-over from a previous age. There have been positive critical reassessments of Yoko's work, all you have to do is google Yoko Ono to find them.

People just continue to hate her has a mass mind, "herd" kind of emotional reaction.  

Expert Textpert said
As for Linda...

No one hated Jane Asher because she was British, respectable and culturally sophisticated.

I would guess Linda was seen as something of a vulgarian, being American, a rock photographer, and without musical training.

Add to that the jealousy factor.

But the hate was nowhere near what Yoko received and still does.  

I'll take the last post about Linda and Jane first........

I'm not sure support for Jane Asher was ever 100%.......that literally 'no one hated her'......I recall there was always some jealousy based on whatever 'Jealousy'  could be conjured up by the... jealous...... (You might remember  I delivered Jane and Paul's daily papers in Wimpole St, practically part of the family 555! Followed their story closely anyway), but I agree she was more liked than Linda. You jump of course to the fact that Linda was American and somewhere you signed up to the Hollywood stereotype of the stuck-up British.....Easily done..Just as we in Britain thought all Americans were, rich, handsome and beautiful..The Beatles were shocked to find that wasn't true.

Simply put American didn't come in to it.....most people I spoke to thought Paul could have captured a stunner and Linda was a bit mousey.

There's a Thai saying: king thong bai yok......It means a gold branch and a jade leaf ......It's used when a married couple 'go well' together. Paul and Jane sort of did....Initially at least Paul and Linda sort of didn't..

......But Linda only came in for the harsh criticism later when she looked so uncomfortable on stage. Should been understanding and sympathy for her, not contumely  and contempt I agree....That was nasty. But nothing to do with considerations she was a vulgar, (of the masses) American......the opposite, she wasn't ostentatious and  we knew she had dosh...In any case she came in for much the same kickback from jealous Americans...So sorry your guess won't wash! 

 I am in agreement here with you that neither Jane, nor Linda, nor Cynthia, nor Maureen, nor Pattie, nor Barbara, nor Olivia have come in for the criticism that Yoko has.

We draw different conclusions as to why that is......You'll jump to an 'ism' or an 'ist' here.....or a hate......Which only a worn-out tactic to shut down debate.

I think much of the reason for it it boiled down to her and John forcing a minuscule talent into the greatest band the world has ever seen and demanding it receive equal respect. Using from the beginning and consistently over the intervening years the power of an 'ist or an 'ism' to cower us.

Sorry that won't wash with the great unwashed....We know a fake when we see one.....John didn't....Magic Alex for example......Alan Klein ...?

Your earlier thread.....

The fact that I 'fancied' Yoko has nothing to do with anything other than I'd have shagged her.....Pattie was the most 'fanciable'.... Yoko was number two in my adolescent fantasies.......Always wondered what John was saying when he said, 'nobody ever done me like she done me' Reckon Yoko' really had a hold on' John.

Great for John. She went up a notch in my mind.

But I was being frivolous, honest but frivolous no way should you link 'fancy' to a concordant love of her discordance.

You typically use whoever the guy you refer to as being white as an argument for unequal treatment......'If you look for racism you'll find it'.....Though you don't prove that's what at work in your, apples and oranges comparison. Just throw it out anyway......usually shuts down debate doesn't it? Sorry won't wash with me.        

You say my argument and others are 'disingenuous.'.....which means insincere, not candid.....I'm 100% sincere and I think from the above you can see I've been pretty candid.

You appear to adore Yoko, feel strongly she's been treated badly and her work unjustly dismissed.....And the only justification that there could possibly be for all this is an 'ism' or 'ist' of some other kind of unreasonable....hate....

Yoko's a great gal, given life a go....Made the most of a life's ticket thanks to her engineered relationship with a Beatle who she'd never heard of??? And then with another called John.

Credit to her for that......But please don't expect me to enjoy her caterwauling......... And If I don't, condemn me with an 'ism/ist', or suggest a lacking in sophistication (though might be right about the sophistication bit......The sophists were the first teachers and a hated and mistrusted group anyway)

 

Cheers M8 

8 January 2019
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Salty:

I never claimed a vast understanding of British culture, so your insult is rather unfounded. I don’t know anything about Jane Asher as a person, and probably neither do you. 

You keep trying your best to pin something on me...is it because I’m a Yoko fan? I’m the one arguing against sexism here, and you brand me as sexist...okay. I don’t like you much so far. Throw your poison darts at someone else.

I was making suggestions as to why some might have liked Jane Asher but not Linda...I wasn’t expressing my own opinion. I happen to like Linda.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

8 January 2019
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Wigwam,

This all boils down to a matter of preference. You can claim all you want that Yoko has no talent, but that doesn’t make it true. It’s your opinion.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

8 January 2019
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Expert Textpert said
Wigwam,

This all boils down to a matter of preference. You can claim all you want that Yoko has no talent, but that doesn’t make it true. It’s your opinion.  

That's it. You got there!

Cuts both ways......

Phew!.......Thank you.

And nobody got hurt....Lovely.

8 January 2019
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Expert Textpert said
Salty:

I never claimed a vast understanding of British culture, so your insult is rather unfounded. I don’t know anything about Jane Asher as a person, and probably neither do you. 

You keep trying your best to pin something on me...is it because I’m a Yoko fan? I’m the one arguing against sexism here, and you brand me as sexist...okay. I don’t like you much so far. Throw your poison darts at someone else.

I was making suggestions as to why some might have liked Jane Asher but not Linda...I wasn’t expressing my own opinion. I happen to like Linda.  

No, I don't know anything about Jane Asher as person anymore than you do about Yoko Ono as a person. I don't know anything about John or Cynthia - never met them and neither have you. You have dragged the other women into the Yoko thread because you object to some of the comments made about Yoko. Oh, the unfairness of it all. If you don't know anything about them, that's fine, but don't blow out their candles to make Yoko's shine brighter. In this, you have branded yourself as sexist.

8 January 2019
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I don’t think I am the person who brought up the other women, and no I am not sexist. I advise you to stop pushing me.

Actually it was you who brought Cynthia into this discussion. 

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

8 January 2019
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I said it was sexist to expect women to linger in the background.  I do not have that expectation. I believe women should be strong and speak out for what they want and what they believe.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

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