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The Beatles Breakup
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Zig
The Toppermost of the Poppermost

8722 Posts
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23 November 2010 - 5.21pm

GniknuS said:

A ton


TheOneBeatleManiac said:

Two tons


Nice work, gents. And to think there are those who still say it was all Yoko's fault...

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

Every Little Thing you buy from Amazon or iTunes will help the Beatles Bible if you use these links: Amazon | iTunes

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mr. Sun king coming together
Nowhere Land
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23 November 2010 - 9.58pm

Zig said:

GniknuS said:

A ton


TheOneBeatleManiac said:

Two tons


Nice work, gents. And to think there are those who still say it was all Yoko's fault...


Those are the same people who think water just appears in their tap

As if it matters how a man falls down.'

'When the fall's all that's left, it matters a great deal.

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Dear Prudence
Coming down fast but miles above you.
1143 Posts
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23 November 2010 - 11.01pm

mr. Sun king coming together said:

Zig said:

GniknuS said:

A ton


TheOneBeatleManiac said:

Two tons


Nice work, gents. And to think there are those who still say it was all Yoko's fault...


Those are the same people who think water just appears in their tap

HEY!!!

Dear Prudence

Giving you quality -Facepalms- , since August 7, 2010.

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Nicholaevna Romanov
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23 November 2010 - 11.11pm

Dear Prudence said:

mr. Sun king coming together said:

Zig said:

GniknuS said:

A ton


TheOneBeatleManiac said:

Two tons


Nice work, gents. And to think there are those who still say it was all Yoko's fault...


Those are the same people who think water just appears in their tap

That's a good way to put it. I don't know why Yoko is always blamed except the fact that its easier to blame the woman than the 4 gods that were The Beatles. As was stated above, it was a long process that started long before Yoko. I am reading Philip Norman's book, and I am not blaming Linda or the Eastman's, but it seems that a lot of problems came up when Paul wanted one group of lawyers, his wife's brother and father, and the rest wanted Allen Klein brought to the table by John. AGAIN NOT BLAMING LINDA OR THE EASTMAN'S!  All of them were moving in different directions and I think John and George were the two who her running as fast as they could down that seperate direction.

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robert
415 Posts
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24 November 2010 - 12.51pm

There are many factors which contributed to the break-up.

 

Yoko is not to blame, however she is a major factor. The fact that she disrupted the 1974 reunion and was opposed to the 1981 reunion, shows her influence on this matter. There's really not much doubt that she kept John and Paul from working together as much as she could - for whatever reason. She certainly was pulling John away in the late 60's. Encouraging him to expand his horizons etc., nothing wrong with that per se, however John was prepared to stay in the band even well into Abbey Road.

 

Other factors leading to the break-up were John's herion addiction - this made him erractic and pretty impossible to reason with.

 

Paul's ego got out of control until he was blinded by his own spotlight - he had an attitude which was rather pig-headed - he was so convinced of the rightness of his positions that he couldn't see (at the time) how, for example, using his in-laws for mgt. was threatening to the others during an already tense time (although he was certainly vindicated regarding Allen Klein) or how his ovebearing manner musically was alienating the others artistically (less so for John - who was usually allowed to play whatever he wanted on Paul's songs).

 

George quit during Let It Be because of John not Paul. John was much more dismissive of George's music, and George was openly hostile towards Yoko. This lead to a fist fight between John and George which was not caught on camera and explains why John was so quick to get Clapton into the band. If the fight had been between Paul and George, one would think John would be quick to come down on Paul - and yet we have this moment when George quits, and John rather than say "Well we're over" or "Paul you screwed this up" he is actually prepared to bring in Clapton and keep the band going. This is a big insight into John's attitude regarding the group and his relationship with Paul at that time.

 

There were a lot of people playing the Beatles off each other - this added a lot of tension.

 

I think we need to realize that the breakup was inevitable - in terms of how many bands actually stay together for the long-term. We are looking at the immediate causes - but to me the real reason is it was bound to happen - most people don't know how to end relationships well.

 

We can over analyze it, but to me, it was inevitable - just by the force of the 4 personalities and all they had accomplished in such a short time.

 

To me the bigger shame is Yoko's keeping John and Paul apart during the 70's. Catch the time line of how quickly John returned to NY after he began hanging out with Paul in LA. Yoko reeled him back in. Not saying he didn't love her, in fact because of that love, he would abandon his "mates" for his wife - just as many husbands do.

Just my thoughts

"She looks more like him than I do."

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kingjjj8
Strawberry Fields
327 Posts
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25 November 2010 - 12.08am

The Beatles broke up themselves. We just want to blame someone! It's also MArk DAVID CHAPMAN'S FAULT!!!!!!! He killed john! IF he didn't then the beatles could have had some... you know reunions! And cancer it's cancer's fault a-hard-days-night-ringo-11

Rap music is just computerized crap. - George Harrison

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kingjjj8
Strawberry Fields
327 Posts
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25 November 2010 - 12.10am

OH! and because of the copious amounts of drugs they took it made themturn into different people. a-hard-days-night-paul-1

Rap music is just computerized crap. - George Harrison

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GniknuS
Rain? I don't mind
1327 Posts
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25 November 2010 - 2.00am

Zig said:

GniknuS said:

A ton


TheOneBeatleManiac said:

Two tons


Nice work, gents. And to think there are those who still say it was all Yoko's fault...


I'll play devil's advocate, maybe it is all Yoko's fault, maybe not all Yoko's fault, but at least mostly. My overall premise is that the change in John is the biggest reason they broke up, but, if you think about it, who changed John? Maybe it wasn't all Yoko, but she at least caused the biggest change in John's thinking. So India was sort of the big obstacle, there's life before India and life after India, but even before India John was in contact with Yoko and even in India he received letters from her. Something in his thinking had to have changed from All You Need Is Love to Yer Blues, and it's been assumed that it was his disillusionment with the Maharishi, but could Yoko have been the biggest factor in his disillusionment?After all, she was the one who urged him to cut the "bullshit" out of his work. So that's the question, could Yoko have caused the biggest change in John BEFORE and DURING India, or was it more of just his own disillusionment? If India caused the split, who caused the change in India?

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine

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mr. Sun king coming together
Nowhere Land
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25 November 2010 - 2.02am

Magic Alex.

As if it matters how a man falls down.'

'When the fall's all that's left, it matters a great deal.

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GniknuS
Rain? I don't mind
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25 November 2010 - 2.10am

mr. Sun king coming together said:

Magic Alex.


I think Alex got them out of India, but he didn't cause the change in John's thinking. Maybe saying that Yoko completely changed John's thinking is giving her too much credit, but she at least was one of the biggest factors.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine

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mr. Sun king coming together
Nowhere Land
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25 November 2010 - 2.22am

And Why did he get them out of India? He was Losing his control on John.

As if it matters how a man falls down.'

'When the fall's all that's left, it matters a great deal.

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GniknuS
Rain? I don't mind
1327 Posts
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25 November 2010 - 2.47am

mr. Sun king coming together said:

And Why did he get them out of India? He was Losing his control on John.


That's interesting...that always sort of amazed me that the whole Maharishi thing was started by Magic Alex and that they all went along with it, especially George.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine

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skye
AZ
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25 November 2010 - 3.04am

He chased after a lot of "illusions" thinking it would make him happy – The Beatles, Cynthia, marijuana, LSD, Magic Alex, the Maharishi, etc. Honestly, just reading his comments in Anthology has led me to the conclusion that he was always chasing something. Was Yoko his new illusion? Maybe, but he stayed with her a lot longer than his previous obsessions.

I don't know, the idea that she had undue influance on him seems fishy to me. From my point of view, he had a strong enough personality that if he wasn't looking, if he didn't want the kind of life she offered, then Yoko wouldn't have been able to "steal" him away from Cynthia and The Beatles.

Did Allen Klein or Yoko Ono help matters any? No, but they were invited in by John. And why did he bring them in? To prove he was in charge. So if we're going to "blame" anyone, we should focus on the members of the band, not the people they dragged into the mess.

Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo! So little time! So much to know!

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GniknuS
Rain? I don't mind
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25 November 2010 - 3.29am

skye said:

He chased after a lot of "illusions" thinking it would make him happy – The Beatles, Cynthia, marijuana, LSD, Magic Alex, the Maharishi, etc. Honestly, just reading his comments in Anthology has led me to the conclusion that he was always chasing something. Was Yoko his new illusion? Maybe, but he stayed with her a lot longer than his previous obsessions.

I don't know, the idea that she had undue influance on him seems fishy to me. From my point of view, he had a strong enough personality that if he wasn't looking, if he didn't want the kind of life she offered, then Yoko wouldn't have been able to "steal" him away from Cynthia and The Beatles.

Did Allen Klein or Yoko Ono help matters any? No, but they were invited in by John. And why did he bring them in? To prove he was in charge. So if we're going to "blame" anyone, we should focus on the members of the band, not the people they dragged into the mess.


I think Yoko offered something different and John was immensely attracted to that. He was so disillusioned with being a Beatle, and Yoko was probably the one person on earth who allegedly had "never heard of the Beatles." I'm trying to think of it from my own perspective, you know when you have like a guilty pleasure that you know you shouldn't have, but finally you give into it and your life just changes in some way? You're always tempted and are able to ward off that temptation, but one day you just give in. I bet that was what Yoko was to John, she was a temptation that probably took him so long to give into because she was so weird and different from anyone else, and when he finally gave in, he just couldn't have enough of her.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine

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skye
AZ
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25 November 2010 - 3.46am

Ok, so it seems like we're in agreement. Correct me if I misunderstood you, but it seemed like you were implying that it was some how her fault? a-hard-days-night-ringo-7

Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo! So little time! So much to know!

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GniknuS
Rain? I don't mind
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25 November 2010 - 4.00am

skye said:

Ok, so it seems like we're in agreement. Correct me if I misunderstood you, but it seemed like you were implying that it was some how her fault? a-hard-days-night-ringo-7


I think it's mostly John's fault that the Beatles broke up, but she was the biggest factor in the change that occurred in John. So, by the transitive property, she should be given at least some of the blame. I don't think she was intentionally trying to sabotage the group like a lot of people think, but the choice came down to her or the Beatles for John and he chose her. You can't really blame John for choosing her just like you can really blame the other three for not accepting her as one of the group like John wanted, but I do think that she was the biggest factor in his decision to leave.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine

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skye
AZ
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25 November 2010 - 4.32am

I see. I'm not sure factor is the same as blame. Blame implies that it was intentional.

But on the other hand, isn't she usually described as being bored during their sessions? She's not a timid woman, and if she wanted to leave and work on her art, she would do so. She said herself that her attitude was more "Screw you, I've got my own problems" at the time. Was this passive aggressive behavior a team effort? If that's the case, then yes, she deserves some of the blame.

Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo! So little time! So much to know!

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Joe
Pepperland
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25 November 2010 - 10.37am

I don't have the quote to hand, but in 1970 Paul said he felt intimidated by Yoko's presence during the LIB sessions. Instead of writing something like "I really love you, girl" he felt he should come up with something more sophisticated because she was there. On reflection, he realised that he should have gone with what he originally wanted, and that Yoko would have liked the simple lyrics anyway, but in January 1969 he wasn't sure how to read her.

I think George and Ringo probably felt similarly, to a greater or lesser degree. It was unusual for a wife to be present in the studio for Beatles sessions, and suddenly John presented Yoko as an extension of himself ("Where I go, she goes" etc).

Not that I think that's the key reason for the breakup. I think George said something along the lines of "The Beatles was too small for the four of us". They outgrew being in a band and wanted to try different things. Once they'd completed Pepper and had fulfilled everyone's expectations of them, they had nowhere to go but explore their own separate interests, only some of which dovetailed.

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Zig
The Toppermost of the Poppermost

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26 November 2010 - 2.32pm

When I read or hear most people talking about the breakup I get an image of a growing puddle of gasoline upon which Yoko was the lit match. For many years, until I actually took the time to read and hear more about it, I have to confess I was in that group as well. For that, I apologize to Yoko as I was a bit unfair. The more I learn about her, the less I dislike her. A while back in these very pages, I wrote that I neither liked nor disliked her - she was just there. I'm not quite ready to profess my undying love for her, but I am now more on the "like" side of the line.

Now, instead of the puddle of gasoline analogy, I liken it to a pressure cooker in which Yoko was merely an ingredient. Add a dash of discontent over being Beatles (mostly by John and George), a teaspoon of increasing individuality, a cup of deteriorating Apple Corps, sprinkle in some Allen Klein and BOOM!

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

Every Little Thing you buy from Amazon or iTunes will help the Beatles Bible if you use these links: Amazon | iTunes

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mr. Sun king coming together
Nowhere Land
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26 November 2010 - 2.36pm

That's a great way to look at it. But you forgot some Maharishi discontent

As if it matters how a man falls down.'

'When the fall's all that's left, it matters a great deal.

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