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Piero Scaruffi Beatles Thoughts?
18 August 2016
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Starr Shine?
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Comments for that article start here. I'll repost my response.

rigorously white

ahdn_paul_06That quote made me laugh. What other kinda white could they be? Unless they changed band members of something or are a chameleon band. And also their were white rockers before the Beatles

Rock and roll could finally be included in the pop charts.

Guess Elvis wasn't a thing

The Beatles were the quintessence of instrumental mediocrity. George Harrison was a pathetic guitarist, compared with the London guitarists of those days (Townshend of the Who, Richards of the Rolling Stones, Davies of the Kinks, Clapton and Beck and Page of the Yardbirds, and many others who were less famous but no less original). The Beatles had completely missed the Revolution of rock music (founded on a prominent use of the guitar) and were still trapped in the stereotypes of the easy-listening orchestras. Paul McCartney was a singer from the 1950s, who could not have possibly sounded more conventional. As a bassist, he was not worth the last of the rhythm and blues bassists (even though within the world of Merseybeat his style was indeed revolutionary). Ringo Starr played drums the way any kid of that time played it in his garage (even though he may ultimately be the only one of the four who had a bit of technical competence). Overall, the technique of the "fab four" was the same of many other easy-listening groups: sub-standard.

How can you say overall about the bands technique when you don't even mention John?

While the Velvet Underground, Frank Zappa, the Doors, Pink Floyd and many others were composing long and daring suites worthy of avant garde music, thus elevating rock music to art

So in order to be an art it has to be avant garde and super long? What makes that art versus any other kind of music?

Beatles fans can change the meaning of the word "artistic" to suit themselves,

It seems Beatles fans aren't the only ones who can change the meaning of words a-hard-days-night-ringo-8

As popular icons, as celebrities, the Beatles certainly influenced their times, although much less than their fans suppose. Even Richard Nixon, the American president of the Vietnam war and Watergate influenced his times and the generations that followed, but that doesn't make him a great musician.

a-hard-days-night-ringo-7

Several times he mentions how long 15 - 20 minute songs are better than the Beatles 3 minute songs. What is his problem with short songs? A song can be just as "artistic" and still be short.

They scatter studio effects here and there, pretending to be avant garde musicians, in Fixing A Hole and Being For The Benefit Of Mr Kite , but in reality these are tunes inspired by the music halls, the circuses and small town bands

So? If everyone is doing the avant garde thing except them would they be considered the out their different group. Avant garde music can't be inspired by the circus? Where are avant garde musicians supposed to get their inspiration?

classical (Piggies , a rare moment of genius from Harrison, a baroque sonata performed with the sarcastic humour of the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band, with a melody borrowed from Stephane Grappelli's Eveline)

Piggies is classical? Well your not too far gone if you like Piggies

All efforts at cohesion notwithstanding, their personalities truly became too divergent. The modest hippie George Harrison became attracted to Oriental spiritualism. (Something and Here Comes The Sun are his melancholy ballads). Paul McCartney , the smiling bourgeois, became progressively more involved with pop music (every nursery-rhyme, Get Back and Let It Be included, are his). John Lennon , the thoughtful intellectual became absorbed in self-examination and political involvement. His was a much harder and/or psychedelic sound (Revolution , Come Together , the dreamy and Indian-like Across The Universe ). They were songs ever more meaningless and anonymous. After all, the break-up had begun with Revolver (Lennon wrote Tomorrow Never Knows , Harrison Love You To , McCartney Eleanor Rigby ), and had been camouflaged in successive records by Martin's painstakingly arrangements.

What about Ringo? Where does he stand in all this?a-hard-days-night-ringo-5

He gives a summery of their solo years expert for Ringo! What happened to Ringo? Did he fall in a black hole?! a-hard-days-night-ringo-14

unlike Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix they didn't further the myth of LSD;

Was that something that needed to be furthered? Was their a demand for people to explore the myth of LSD? Wouldn't it be better to share the facts of LSD so that everyone is well informed before they try it?

I just read his article and I found it amusing and pretentious. Their are a lot of thesis type of articles everywhere on the internet and it doesn't really stand out compared to the other critical articles. It doesn't really go into the Beatles instead just compares the Beatles to everyone else. I found it funny that he talked about the avant garde yet he hardly brings up Yoko Ono and her influence on the Beatles. I don't get why a lot of the comments before are so angry at this article

Mr. Kite said

meanmistermustard said

Surely going by that logic none of us here can criticise any musician who is of a better standard than us.

You're right... But I'm saying everyone can have their opinion, but making fun of someone's musical skills when you don't play and cant respect the difficulty is unfair.

I am not sure how that is unfair. It is free speech and the first amendment. I don't think he is making fun of them. He is just stating they are inferior compared to other acts at the time. He does mention that the Beatles are good at writing melodies. Your One Direction comparison includes only past acts by a few decades if it was more like this article it would include modern acts and how they are all so much better then One Direction.

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Beatlebug, mcsugalumps

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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18 August 2016
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Wow. That was depressing. a-hard-days-night-ringo-14 

The guy was so desperate to thrash the Beatles that he even got a couple of factual errors wrong (since when have the Beatles doggedly obsessed over the Beach Boys ? I was always under the impression that it was the other way around), despite the fact that he would occasionally (grudgingly) admit that something was good. Some of what he said was valid, but most of it -- even if it's true, I would rather not believe it. Maybe he's right that the Beatles are nothing but insulation against reality, but I'm happy being insulated, thank you very much. a-hard-days-night-paul-11 

I don't particularly care about their musical influence, myself; they are what they are, and I love them for it. That Is All. It doesn't really matter to me if they changed the world or not, if they created a Revolution or stifled it -- their music means something to me: it always has, and it always will. Nothing to do with revolutionary technique or avante-garde experimentation or any of it; it just speaks to me, on a personal level.

SO THERE, MR MAN! a-hard-days-night-paul-11a-hard-days-night-paul-11a-hard-days-night-paul-11

It verges from the sublime to the ridiculote

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18 August 2016
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Yeah I read that takedown awhile ago and thought it was really unfair and excessive...some people have some kinda grudge against the boys very ubiquity it seems...I do appreciate that he knows a hell of a lot about many kinds of music tho...I liked his articles about cecil taylor and MX-80 Sound 

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Someone said 'What were you gonna do when it's all finished,' and I said 'I don't know but it'd be good fun being a DJ.' And since then I've become a DJ, only by word of mouth, you know. SO any minute now you'll read, 'Ringo leaves to become a DJ' but it's not true. - Ringo Starr

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18 August 2016
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I've read stuff like this before. I've known people who spoke like this before. I just smile and nod. (Knowing better.) To quote my beloved Donovan, "The book you are reading is one man's opinion of moonlight."

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19 August 2016
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Applying experimental techniques, genres and sounds to popular music is an innovative triumph in itself. Some of the techniques that The Beatles employed had been done before by artists such as Stockhausen but they brought these techniques to the popular music and wrote great melody's around these avant garde techniques. The Beatles don't have to composed long 15 minute songs in order to be avant garde. That's probably my biggest critique of this article. Also he says that they were mediocre musicians but in my opinion they play what was needed for the song and didn't need to over stuff their song's with complexity in terms of playing style. The article is well written but it's arguments are flawed.   

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19 August 2016
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Silly Girl said
 (since when have the Beatles doggedly obsessed over the Beach Boys ? I was always under the impression that it was the other way around)

Actually, I think that was pretty much true both ways 'round.

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I'm also ewe2 on weekends.

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6 January 2017
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I wasn't really planning on coming back and posting on here again after a member said unjustified horrible things to me,and I'm only posting this information to totally debunk the extremely ignorant,ludicrous,inaccurate lies that Piero Scaruffi wrote and he's constantly quoted by Beatles haters who ignorantly, ludicrously call The Beatles a talentless,overrated boy band and compare them to any stupid,uncool,untalented true boy bands that are popular at the moment,now it's ludicrously One Direction. I really am shocked that any fans on here actually think that Scaruffi's horrible,inaccurate,article has any truth or validity to it.

 

On a heavy metal site metalpedia some years ago someone had posted Scaruffi's garbage and a guy so rightfully said,that Scaruffi made up  whole a lot of contrived bullsh*t  about The Beatles and a lot of people think he knows what he's talking about because he's a cognitive scientist. Other people have said that Scaruffi made most of this stuff up,and he did all of it really.

6 January 2017
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The Beatles were very good musicians,not ''mediocre''.This  is all of the true important things Scaruffi conveniently doesn't tell people.

 

One of his countless hateful,ignorant lies,is that none of The Beatles peers praised them.

 
As The All Music Guide says in their excellent Beatles biography "That it's difficult to summarize their career without restating cliches that have already been digested by tens of millions of rock fans, to start with the obvious,they were the greatest and most influential act of the rock era and introduced more innovations into popular music than any other rock band of the 20th century."
 
 
 
 
"Moreover they were among the few artists of *any* discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did *and* the most popular at what they did." They also say as singers John Lennon and Paul McCartney were among the best and most expressive in rock.
 
 
 
 
 
Also on an excellent site,The Evolution of Rock Bass Playing McCartney Style by Dennnis Alstrand,Stanley Clarke,Sting,Will Lee,Billy Sheehan,George Martin and John Lennon are quoted saying what a great,melodic and influential bass player Paul has always been.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And Wilco's John Stirratt was asked in Bass Player which bass players have had the most impact on his playing and the first thing he said was, Paul McCartney is one of the greatest bass players of all time,if you listen to what he was tracking live in the studio it's unbelievable." "With his tone and musicality he was a huge influence,he covered all of his harmonic responsibilities really well but his baselines were absolutely melodic and inventive."
 
 
 
 
 
In this 2010 interview the blogger says that John Stirratt has an affinity for good melodies so it's not surprising that Paul McCartney is one of his musical icons and then he quotes him saying that he's always absolutely in awe of his playing,including Paul's Beatles years.
 
 
 
 
 
And in an online 1977 Eric Clapton interview,Eric Clapton In His Own Words he says that there was always this game between John and George,and he said partly because John was a pretty good guitar player himself    http://www.superseventies.com/.....apton.html . He played live with John as a member of John's 1969 Plastic Ono Band.
 
 
And there is a great online article by musician and song writer Peter Cross,The Beatles Are The Most Creative Band Of All Time and he says that many musicians besides him recognize Paul as one of the best bass guitar players ever.He too says that John and Paul are the greatest song composers and that to say that John and Paul are among 2 of the greatest singers in rock and roll is to state the obvious,and that John,Paul and George were all excellent guitarists and that George is underrated by people not educated about music but that Eric Clapton knew better,he also says that both John and Paul played great leads as well as innovative rhythm tracks.
 
 
 
 
 
John Lennon co-wrote,sang and played guitar on one of David Bowie's first hits Fame in 1975 and David invited John to play guitar on his version of John's beautiful Beatles song Across The Universe .Brain May,Ozzy Osbourne,and Liam Gallagher and many more call The Beatles The Greatest Band Ever.'
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
Also on MusicRadar Tom Petty,Joe Perry and Richie Sambora in What The Beatles Mean To Me all say how cool and great they thought The Beatles were when they first saw them on The Ed Sullivan Show in February 1964 when they were just teen boys,Richie was only 5.Tom Petty said he thought they were really really great.
 
 
 
 
Robin Zander of Cheap Trick said he's probably one of the biggest Beatles fans on the planet.Brad Whitford of Aerosmith said that a lot of that Beatles influence comes from Steven Tyler's collaborartion with Mark Hudson both whom are absolute Beatles freaks and he said I guess the goal is to try and emulate probably some of the best music of the last 50 years which has to be The Beatles.
 
 
 
 
 

 

6 January 2017
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This 1999 review of Mark Lewisohn's excellent Beatles studio diary book where many of The Beatles recording engineers and tape operators and their producer George Martin are interviewed (and it shows how truly innovative,brilliant and creative especially John and Paul were in the recording studio),The Beatles Recording Sessions titled, Behind The Creative Genius Of A Groundbreaking Band by a musician himself says it all, he says that as a musician he found Mark Lewisohn's portrayal of The Beatles genius and in parenthesis he says, especially that of John Lennon and Paul McCartney , to be completely thorough and accurate, as well as insightful. He then says if you are to buy any one Beatles book,buy this one.
 
 
 
 
 
And this reviewer RAS who became a big Beatles fan after he read The Beatles Recording Sessions book,said,I think The Beatles ARE BRILLIANT and he said he despairs what his life would be like without The Beatles!! He said that when he first saw this book,he said Oh another garbage Beatles book.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
6 January 2017
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Also in an excellent Beatles book  Ticket To Ride by Denny Somach where so many other well known popular respected rock musicians and artists are interviewed about The Beatles praising them including Jimmy Page,Brian Wilson who says he's always loved The Beatles. And  Brian Wilson called John & Paul the greatest song writers of the 20th century on a 1995 Nightline Beatles tribute show,(which had on music artists from every type of music,a young black jazz musician,a middle aged black opera singer,Steve Winwood,Meatloaf,and classical violinist Isak Perleman,who said he plays his children Bach,Beethoven Mozart and The Beatles)and he played With A Little Help From My Friends on the piano and he said he just loves this song. He also said that Sgt.Pepper is the greatest album he ever heard and The All Music Guide says in their Beach Boys biography,that Brian had a nerveous breakdown after he heard it. Brian also said that when he first heard The Beatles brilliant 1965 folk rock album Rubber Soul he was blown away by it.He said all of the songs flowed together and it was pop music but folk rock at the same time and  he couldn't believe they did this so great,this inspired him to make Pet Sounds.
 
 
 
John Lodge and Justin of The Moody Blues  are interviewed in this book and Bill Wyman and Ron Wood  says how The Rolling Stones became good friends with The Beatles in 1963 after John and Paul wrote 1 of their first hits,the Rock n Roll song,I Wanna Be You're Man.
 
 
Ron Wood was asked what his favorite Beatles songs and he said there are so many apart from the obvious like Strawberry Fields  I Want To Hold Your Hand   is one he said he used to like a lot ,and he said he really loved We Can Work It Out .He also says that The Beatles used to have a radio show every Friday where they played live and spoke and he would never miss an episode. He said in fact whoever has the rights to those shows should dig them up,because they are incredible.
 
 
Justin Hayward says  that the album he always really loved ,and he said it was when they started experimenting with chord structures ,was A Hard Day's Night .He says they began to move away from the standard  3 chord thing and just went into more interesting structures .He said A Hard Day's Night was the album for him and their song If I Fell was the song.He said it started in a different key to how it ended up,and it's a beautifully worked out song and that there are some songs on that album that were very emotional and evocative. He said that for everybody just starting to write songs as he was,it was a real turn on and eye opener.
6 January 2017
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In 2010 I read an online article that had an interview with Ernie Isley of The Isley Brothers about a recent tribute to Jimi Hendrix, in which he says that Jimi played for The Isley Brothers & lived with them & that they & he were fans of The Fab Four from the moment they all watched them on The Ed Sullivan Show in February 1964. I always thought that Jimi was only a later period Beatles fan,I knew he played Sgt.Pepper live the weekend it came out,& he played Day Tripper live also,& several people on different message boards said that when he was asked where the direction of music was going,he said ask The Beatles.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
6 January 2017
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Ozzy Osbourne has been a big Beatles fan since he was an early teenager,and he picked She Loves You as one of his favorite songs for Rolling Stone Magazine's 500 Greatest songs and Sgt.Pepper is one o his favorite albums. He says that not loving The Beatles is like not loving oxygen and he called The Beatles the greatest band to ever walk the earth.

Here Ozzy Osbourne says that he doesn't anyone will ever be as great as The Beatles and he said they were all great,even George Harrison and Ringo Starr were great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....D0_MtCDcQQ

 
 
 
Here is a video of Ozzy Osbourne meets Paul McCartney for the first time and they hug each other.
 

 
 
 
Here Ozzy Osbourne says how hearing She Loves You at age 15 inspired him to go into music.
 
 
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.....-osbourne-beatles-moved-me-30320049.html
 
 
 

6 January 2017
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In this 2008 interview asking Keith Richards who the five greatest bands ever are besides The Rolling Stones,he said obviously he put The Beatles in there. This was 6 years of course before he ridiculously criticized The Beatles brilliant Sgt.Pepper album that The Rolling Stones tried but failed to copy and equal.

 
6 January 2017
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In the 2012 Newsweek Beatles special celebrating 50 years since  their music came out,Steve Jobs was quoted from Walter Isaacson's biography as talking about how the band's approach to recording "refining and refining" influenced his own creative process. He said they were such perfectionists they kept it going and going he said. Steve Jobs said that this made a big impression on him when he was in his thirties.Newsweek rightfully says,that it's hard to imagine another rock band that influenced the way computers are made just as it is to think of one whose name became an adjective. And Newsweek said and that's why The Beatles still stand apart.
 
 
They quote Steve Jobs saying,"Somebody else could  have replicated the Stones,(Newsweek then says,nailing the difference between artists shaped by their times and those who shape them),no one could have been Dylan or The Beatles."
6 January 2017
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From Me To You ,and especially She Loves You and I Want To Hold Your Hand were praised by some music critics even from the beginning,like William Mann of The London Times in December 1963 pointed out their interesting unusual chords and arrangements and London Times music critic Richard Buckle also in late 1963 called John and Paul the greatest composers since Beethoven after they wrote the music for a play Mods and Rockers.
 
 
Bob Dylan ,Roger McGuinn of The Byrds as early as 1963 and 1964 pointed out that even in early Beatles songs like She Loves You and I Want To Hold Your Hand had unusual and interesting chords and they arranged them.
 
 
 
Here in this article about The Beatles chords,Bob Dylan is quoted saying what he thought in 1964 about The early Beatles music,he said that they were doing things nobody was doing and that their chords were outrageous,just outrageous and their harmonies made it all valid.
 
 
 
 
 
Here in Rolling Stone Magazine's 100 Greatest Song Writers Bob Dylan is number 1,Paul McCartney is number 2, and John Lennon is number 3, Bob Dylan is quoted about a car trip when he heard a lot of Beatles songs on the radio, he said they were doing things and that he knew they were pointing the direction where music had to go.
 
 
 
 
 
Roger McGuinn has said that he started to play a 12 string guitar after he saw and heard George Harrison playing in in the A Hard Day's Night movie.
 
 
And John and Paul wrote one of The Rolling Stones first hits the rock n roll song, I Wanna Be Your Man in late 1963 right in front of them. And Keith Richards and Mick Jagger were impressed and said wow,how can you write a song just like that and it inspired them to start writing their own songs.
 
 
 
John Lennon and Paul McCartney were such amazingly talented singer song writers that they were already writing hit songs for other artists as early as 1963 when their own song writing success was getting Off The Ground ,besides The Rolling Stones,they also wrote hit songs in 1963 for Billy J.Krammer and The Dakatos,Celia Black,and Peter and Gordon etc.
 
 
 
Paul wrote his first song at age 14 and was playing guitar,John wrote heavy deep poetry but didn't start writing songs until he met Paul and was impressed that he wrote his own songs,and he too started to write his own songs at age 16,and they wrote together and never stopped from then on. Paul wrote the very pretty song I'll Follow The Sun at only 16.Even when The Beatles first came to America in February 1964 many people said how rare it was for *adult* rock n roll bands and solo artists to write their own songs,and Paul and John were already doing this as teenagers in the mid 1950's.
 
 
And even though I wasn't born yet in 1963 I know what type of music was popular on the radio,non rock n roll songs like Bobby Vinton,The Four Seasons,Bobby Darin and The Beach Boys surfing hits,The early Beatles songs like She Loves You , I Want To Hold Your Hand and I Saw Her Standing There etc were hard rock for 1963 and ahead of their time.
6 January 2017
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   The early Beatles lyrics were more simple but a lot of their early music was actually much more complex. Just one of many examples  I always loved  this very early John song written and recorded  in 1962  Ask Me Why

I  have always loved this great beautiful song written by John,with such typical beautiful melodies and harmonies John and Paul usually wrote,and John's usual beautiful singing voice.And this was amazingly recorded in 1962 on only two track tape! with such limited,primitive recording technology but it of course still sounds great.Except I hate mono it's limited sounding and only makes their already limited recording technology sound even more limited.I tried to find the stereo version of this song on youtube but I couldn't find it.

Here university of Pennsylvania musicologist Alan W.Pollack  who did an 11 year extensive analysis of every one of the 200 Beatles songs,analyzes Ask Me Why and explains that it's structurally complex.

 

http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds...../amw.shtml

Here is Alan's whole Beatles song analysis series http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds.....s_on.shtml

6 January 2017
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Award winning classical composer and music professor Dr.Glen Gass's Beatles course he's been teaching since 1982 and he's been teaching a course in rock music in general since then.
 
 
 
 
6 January 2017
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31  Year old Beatles and academic music scholar Arron Krerowicz plays many instruments & writes his own music too

http://www.aaronkrerowicz.com/faq.html

6 January 2017
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Here is a really good July 1976  Rolling Stone Magazine interview with George Martin in which he's asked about George Harrison who he says is talented but John and Paul are so enormously talented that it was silly to look elsewhere.But it's obvious George Harrison was even more talented as a song writer and guitarist than most people realize because in this same interview George Martin says that he didn't give George much encouragement he just tolerated him. And of course John and Paul didn't give him much encouragement,so he did mostly everything on his own.
6 January 2017
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Around 2003 I found an online interview with George Martin and he said that even though he has produced many other music artists,he has never known or worked with anyone as brilliant as The Beatles. He was also interviews in the 1990's on a Breakfast With The Beatles show on a local rock station,and he said that John Lennon and Paul McCartney were incredibly talented people and he said it like he still couldn't believe it.And he also said they both were extraordinarily talented song writers and great singers.
 
And in the excellent thorough book by Mark Lewisohn,The Beatles Recording Sessions,George Martin,and so many of The Beatles tape operators and recording engineers are interviewed,(and in the beginning there is a great 1987 interview with Paul McCartney ) and they describe in detail how truly innovative,brilliant and creative especially John and Paul were in their amazing 8 year recording career.
 
 
 
And my cousin who was born in 1968 who used to be a lawyer,and his brother born in 62 who is still a lawyer,and their sister born in 64,their oldest brother born in 60,and their parents have always been Beatles fans.My cousin born in 68,went to England around 1991 and he told me that he was at a British Museum where the works of Shakespeare,Dickens,Wodsworth and Keats,Lennon and McCartney's lyrics are right in the same case. And he said the majority of visitors always said,forget the Shakespeare etc,lets go over to the Lennon and McCartney lyrics.
 
 
 
When I once asked him,if he still liked The Beatles he said,best band there ever was.My step cousin born in 1958,said they probably were the greatest band ever.He saw Paul McCartney and Wings in May 1976 in concert when he was 18 and he said it was a great show.
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