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Pete Best: why was he really kicked out? Was it fair?
3 December 2014
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ahdn_paul_06 Would one of the Beatles had to drum if they couldn't find a drummer in time?

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3 December 2014
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Great question, but that would not have worked as Bruno Koschmider requested a five piece band.
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3 December 2014
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Pete's drumming always sounds fine to me when I hear recordings of it--but yeah, it's always a steady beat in 4/4.

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3 December 2014
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From http://www.beatlesbible.com/19.....t-to-join/

We were excited, but we thought, 'Paul isn't really the drummer. Where do we get one from?'

I wonder if they ever really considered Paul seriously for the job of drummer and adding another guitarist or someone to play another instrument to get to the requisite 5?

3 December 2014
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There is one thing that Pete had that they didn't: a drum kit. It wasn't just a case of a drummer, but a drum kit - which was far and away the most expensive instrument that a band needed.

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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

3 December 2014
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@Ron Nasty - when was Mike McCartney's "yard sale" drum kit assembled? Was that prior to or after that first Hambug trip? Not that they would have used it, but your comment triggered that question in my noggin.
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3 December 2014
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@Zig Paul "acquired" the basics of that kit around 1958, during the last days of The Quarrymen and their time as Japage 3, which had been added to by a couple of bits Tommy Moore never got back when he left.

It was a good-ish kit, but was damaged in 1960 at the Grosvener Ballroom, and wouldn't have done for Hamburg.

Though Paul was using it in the period running up to getting Pete after Norman Chapman quit, Paul was adamant he would not be stuck at the back of the band. It was one thing finally accepting the bass guitar as he was to do later, that still kept him stage-front, but he would never have agreed to go to Hamburg as their drummer, and much of his kit would probably have fallen apart on the way.

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3 December 2014
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^ If him being the drummer was the only option. Would he have done it?

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3 December 2014
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Thanks RN, as always.

Ad40 - it is possible that he might have if, as you say, it was their only option. But I don't think it would be probable. It still would have left them seeking a fifth band member in a hurry. Your question would be a great one for Paul's "You gave me the answer" site.

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3 December 2014
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In my opinion, @Starr Shine?, no. Without Pete, they would not have made their first trip to Hamburg (and history as we know may well have changed).

It was one thing for Paul to play the drums at a few Liverpool gigs while they sought a replacement for Norman Chapman. It would have been completely different to go to Hamburg as their drummer, since that might well have cemented his instrument in the line-up, and he wanted to be at the front of the stage, and not stuck behind the front line of guitarists.

There is no evidence that the idea was ever even considered. You might think that, given they only got Pete two days before they left, there would be stories along the lines of, "It was so close cut that Paul almost had to accept being our drummer". There are none. All the accounts are that, had they not got Pete, they would not have gone to Hamburg, and Allan Williams would have used another of his groups.

Maybe we are starting to drift a bit too far from what Oudis wanted for this thread though!

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3 December 2014
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Ron Nasty said

Maybe we are starting to drift a bit too far from what Oudis wanted for this thread though!

Perhaps. Let's call this part of the discussion the "prequel" to his inquiry. It's awesome discussions such as this that led to the merging of threads with simialr topics in the first place - many similar discussions in multiple threads.

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3 December 2014
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Ron Nasty said
Maybe we are starting to drift a bit too far from what Oudis wanted for this thread though!

By no means, @Ron Nasty. Those details complete the whole picture. But I have noticed, yes, that most people seem to defend Peter’s replacement for Richard with no other arguments than “Peter sucked, Ringo was a genius, Ringo Forever Yeah!” –and they don’t cite references (many people have said that the Beatle sound in Hamburg was based on Peter's drumming, for instance; check the interview I posted). They just express their… I cannot even call them opinions, I’ll call them emotions. That is the kind of argument that I don’t find valid. Many people who posted have also talked about, over and over again, how Richard fit the personas of The Beatles in the shows and the movies –something I couldn’t care less about, being somebody who appreciates Beatles’ music and is not into the myth (I couldn’t care less for A Hard day’s Night). When we talk about the myth, Ringo is part of it and Peter is not –and that’s it. But it’s the beginning of irrationality. That is the kind of discussion I didn’t want.

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3 December 2014
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Oudis said

...I have noticed, yes, that most people seem to defend Peter’s replacement for Richard with no other arguments than “Peter sucked, Ringo was a genius, Ringo Forever Yeah!” –and they don’t cite references

References abound in books. Here are some nuggets from Tune In. Fact - George Martin did not want to use Pete in the studio because he was not a very good drummer. Had the Beatles not shown Pete the door, he would not have appeared on any albums in the near future. Fact - they recorded in Hamburg with Tony Sheridan and did some numbers on their own. Ever wonder why there is no bass drum in 'My Bonnie " or any of the other numbers? The producer for those sessions, Bert Kaempfert, thought so little of Pete's drumming, he took away more than half of his kit. Those are not opinions or emotions - they are valid documentations.

Oudis said

Many people who posted have also talked about, over and over again, how Richard fit the personas of The Beatles in the shows and the movies –something I couldn’t care less about, being somebody who appreciates Beatles’ music and is not into the myth (I couldn’t care less for A Hard day’s Night). When we talk about the myth, Ringo is part of it and Peter is not –and that’s it. But it’s the beginning of irrationality. That is the kind of discussion I didn’t want.

Whether or not they ever made any movies is a moot point. Pete did not fit in...period. That has also been well documented in book after book, citing friends, fans, foes, inlaws and outlaws.

You asked "why was he really kicked out?". We cited reasons. You asked, "was it fair?". Some said yes, some said no. Such is life in a public forum. Rational or otherwise.

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3 December 2014
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@Oudis Why did you start calling them Peter and Richard?

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3 December 2014
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Mr. Kite said

a-hard-days-night-ringo-12a-hard-days-night-ringo-7a-hard-days-night-ringo-13

I'm generally in agreement with you @Oudis, but here I respectfully (and really strongly) disagree. Ringo was just as important to the band as the other three, it was the perfect combination that allowed them to excel the way they did. Maybe they could've survived with Pete as their drummer, but I doubt they would've gotten past the early stage of their music. Ringo was the best drummer in Liverpool, in an already quite successful band, the other three Beatles already wanted him and it was the perfect opportunity to dispose of Pete. I do feel bad for him, but don't think he missed out, because if he was in the same position, the band wouldn't have been that big. His conflicting personality wouldn't have allowed the major popularity boom leading to Beatlemania, because a lot of the appeal was the group dynamic, can you imagine Pete in A Hard Day's Night ? And he wasn't skilled enough as a drummer to keep up with the others.

Ringo may not have been a 'creative force,' if by that you mean an amazing songwriter, but the way he played, and his distinct sound (caused by the fact that he's a lefty playing righty kit) are a major part of what we hear on Beatles songs. I doubt Pete would've been able to pull off Tomorrow Never Knows (especially) or Come Together , and would he have been able to drum on Here Comes The Sun with its odd time signature?

[...]

Just as mr. Sun king pointed out, Pete went with them to Germany because they needed to leave quickly. The only reason he was in the band to begin with was because he was one of the few people who owned their own kit, and his mom had a venue, the Casbah Coffee Club.

The bolded are all facts. Yes I gave my opinions as well, but the question "was it fair?" brings in opinions and emotions. You also challenged Ringo as a creative force, and he was in many ways, including acting in AHDN .

You mentioned personas in your first post, and morals which are not fact. You also stated your opinion, that anyone could've taken Ringo's place, and that's been challenged using logic (not just emotion): The Beatles wouldn't have been as popular or successful with Pete.

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3 December 2014
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But in the end, @Oudis, it was all about personalities.

As I said yesterday, and I made no comments about Pete's musical ability, bar him not being the best drummer on Merseyside, it was all about social dynamics.

It really is the group of musicians versus the gang of friends, which is emphasised much more within small groups. Pete, for whatever reasons he may have had, refused to become a part of the gang of friends. He kept himself identifiably apart from them. He created a me and them situation. You look through the whole history of The Beatles, from The Quarrymen on, it was always about the gang.

Many people fell out of the group because better musicians joined the gang, but stayed part of the gang. Their history though, up until Ringo joined, was of drummers who were not a part of the gang, and Pete proved no different.

I don't criticise Pete as a musician, although I believe Ringo had the edge on him. There is no way to know how Pete might have progressed had he remained a Beatle, and I find it silly when people put 1962-style Pete drumming on things like A Day In The Life  and claim that proves anything. You could do exactly the same with 1962-style Ringo drumming. They grew and evolved as musicians.

Pete's sacking, in the end, was all about his social interaction and friendship, or rather lack of, with the rest of the group. To think that musical ability would trump whether you were friends is to misunderstand what groups were at that time, and see them more as business partnerships.

Even groups with the most fractious and volatile relationships, The Who being a great example, you can see have an underlying love for each other.

Pete chose to treat it as a job, and saw them as "work friends", where for John, Paul and George it was more than that, and they wanted a drummer who shared their worldview. They wanted their drummer to be a friend, a member of their gang, as opposed to just being someone they worked with.

To miss that, and to think it's all about musicianship and hours put in, is to fundamentally misunderstand any creative endeavour created by a group dynamic. It is always about the personal relationships.

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3 December 2014
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Ron Nasty said
Pete chose to treat it as a job, and saw them as "work friends", where for John, Paul and George it was more than that, and they wanted a drummer who shared their worldview. They wanted their drummer to be a friend, a member of their gang, as opposed to just being someone they worked with.

To miss that, and to think it's all about musicianship and hours put in, is to fundamentally misunderstand any creative endeavour created by a group dynamic. It is always about the personal relationships.

Valid point, @Ron Nasty. He was the odd-man-out. And out he went. Unfair, but it makes sense from an emotional viewpoint.

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3 December 2014
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Ron Nasty said

I don't criticise Pete as a musician, although I believe Ringo had the edge on him. There is no way to know how Pete might have progressed had he remained a Beatle, and I find it silly when people put 1962-style Pete drumming on things like A Day In The Life  and claim that proves anything. You could do exactly the same with 1962-style Ringo drumming. They grew and evolved as musicians.

I agree with that, but I did find those videos amusing!

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3 December 2014
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Oudis said

Ron Nasty said
Pete chose to treat it as a job, and saw them as "work friends", where for John, Paul and George it was more than that, and they wanted a drummer who shared their worldview. They wanted their drummer to be a friend, a member of their gang, as opposed to just being someone they worked with.

To miss that, and to think it's all about musicianship and hours put in, is to fundamentally misunderstand any creative endeavour created by a group dynamic. It is always about the personal relationships.

Valid point, Ron Nasty. He was the odd-man-out. And out he went. Unfair, but it makes sense from an emotional viewpoint.

You're still missing the biggest point I've been making, @Oudis. Pete made his choice about the relationship he wanted with John, Paul and George. You can call it unfair should you want, but it would be equally unfair to expect them to put up with his attitude towards them, that he had no interest in being friends, no interest in being part of the gang. He made that choice, not them.

I feel I should also point out that every post I have made on this subject has been full of facts that I've been ready to cite sources when asked. Everybody has been able to cite sources for what they've said. You may disagree with their, or my, assessment of those facts, but there are many facts in this thread (including me correcting those that were wrong).

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3 December 2014
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Ron Nasty said
In my opinion, @Starr Shine?, no. Without Pete, they would not have made their first trip to Hamburg (and history as we know may well have changed).

It was one thing for Paul to play the drums at a few Liverpool gigs while they sought a replacement for Norman Chapman. It would have been completely different to go to Hamburg as their drummer, since that might well have cemented his instrument in the line-up, and he wanted to be at the front of the stage, and not stuck behind the front line of guitarists.

There is no evidence that the idea was ever even considered. You might think that, given they only got Pete two days before they left, there would be stories along the lines of, "It was so close cut that Paul almost had to accept being our drummer". There are none. All the accounts are that, had they not got Pete, they would not have gone to Hamburg, and Allan Williams would have used another of his groups.

Maybe we are starting to drift a bit too far from what Oudis wanted for this thread though!

It does look like they did make an effort to find other drummers, though Pete's availability definitely worked in his favour.

This was recently discovered:

http://www.beatlesbible.com/19.....y-drummer/

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