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The Beatles Debate Game
24 December 2014
11.34am
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StrawberryFieldsForever
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JauntyMonty said
Here, There, and Everywhere is so grossly underrated! I love its simpleness and the pure passion of the song. Is it their best love song? Maybe, but it certainly is my favorite. 

It was one of John's favourites too.a-hard-days-night-john-6

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Matt Busby
24 December 2014
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Personally i think Michelle is probably the best love song. It really capture's the feeling very well. (Not saying Something didn't do that) Then again i usually think that Rubber Soul 's Love songs are deeper than there other ones.

I Think that Rolling Stone should do a cover story of The Rolling Stones covering "Like a Rolling Stone" or if a Type of Beetle was named after The Beatles.

28 December 2014
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AppleScruffJunior
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New topic:

I believe* the end of true 'Beatles' came when they finished touring forever. They were so used to touring for the past couple of years that the extra time they had not performing in other countries led to them bickering and squabbling more as they had increased time to work in a small studio together. If they had continued touring for another year or so they would have prolonged the group's life. 

 

What was the end of The Beatles for you? Do you think they could have extended the group's life? Discuss

 

God it's beginning to be like an exam.

*May not reflect my true opinions

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28 December 2014
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I think the touring part is a factor and a solution would be to box them in a room together so they would learn to live with each other forever

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28 December 2014
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I don't think touring was the main factor. In fact, I think that it might have prolonged the group's life for a bit. During their last tour, they were miserable because a bunch of things went wrong (Philippines, Jesus comment, etc) and they were tired of not being taken seriously and people not actually listening to their concerts. For me, the end of the Beatles came about because they were just growing apart. None of them wanted to be associated with the Beatles' teeny-bopper image anymore (especially John and George). The pressure on them was just too great. Paul was trying to keep them together but the others resented him for it. John started doing heroine and met Yoko, distancing him from the group. George and Ringo were tired of being in the others' shadow. If I had to give a moment where they stopped being a group, I would give the White Album recording sessions because they barely worked together and when they did, there were frequent arguments and people walking out.

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31 December 2014
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I tend to think of India as the turning point, and Hey Bulldog as the final group recording before they started to fragment. When they came back to England in the summer of 68 they just didn't seem to have the same appetite for group endeavours, and never really got it back again.

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31 December 2014
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I agree with Joe, but I would go a bit farther back and say that Brian's death was the catalyst for the fragmentation. At another forum, someone recently posted quotes by Marianne Faithful in In My Life : The Brian Epstein Story by Deborah Geller that have stuck with me:

Marianne Faithfull (pg 162): “The minute the news came through that Brian had died, it was shameful the way the Maharishi exploited it. The Beatles were shattered. I can hardly bear to remember it. I think he actually said, “Brian Epstein is dead. He was taking care of you. He was protecting you. He was like your father. I will be your father now.” These poor bastards just didn’t know. It was the most terrible thing.”

Marianne Faithfull (pg 173): “I was absolutely f*^&ing flabbergasted. To me that was the beginning of the end. It went on and on and on, the horror, the horror, the horror. It didn’t stop. ....The whole thing just changed us and it began with Brian’s death, and nobody meant that to happen. The Beatles were just f*^&ing around, really, with the Maharishi, that’s all. Brian was much more than a brilliant businessman. He was a spiritual centre. So I think what happened with the Maharishi was a betrayal of spiritual values, or that’s how it must have appeared to Brian. If he had met the Maharishi, he would have seen immediately that this idiotic little guy wasn’t going to be able to take his place. I think everybody realized that from the minute they met him.

“Brian would have had no problem talking to the Beatles about the Maharishi. Here’s what would have happened if he hadn’t take the overdose: they would come back to London and Brian would have said, ‘How was it?’ and they would have all cracked up laughing as if it was the most ridiculous thing. The trouble with him dying at that moment was that it actually pushed them into the arms of the Maharishi, whereas if he hadn’t died, it would have blown over. The Maharishi was the most ludicrous little man you could imagine. Everybody realized this and we were all embarrassed.

“Brian might have teased them later, but he would have realized this. He had an incredible antenna for sensing things. If he had been there in London when they got back from Wales...the Beatles would not have gone to India and all these things would not have happened.”

[x-posted]

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31 December 2014
10.26pm
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The John
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i know i'll give a Stereotypical answer but I Think The White Album as a Whole kinda saw that these four guys from liverpool were not going to last much longer. The White Album while it is one of their best albums, It felt like 4 Solo Albums Wrapped into one (Partly because many songs were recorded with not all of the beatles) Infact Julia probably could be considered  The First Solo Lennon song mainly because its just him. Plus George's First Studio Album came out during the sessions so that could also be a factor

I Think that Rolling Stone should do a cover story of The Rolling Stones covering "Like a Rolling Stone" or if a Type of Beetle was named after The Beatles.

31 December 2014
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I think k it was they say they made the band spelled its doom since All Things Must Pass .

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2 January 2015
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Hey Jude !
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Last post was last year, so my time I guess

 

John brought Yoko to the sessions excessively just to get rid of beatles. He was hoping that one day Paul would shout " Call it quite, John. Leave it to us".

10 January 2015
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Hey Jude !
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Beatles invented Hard Rock/Metal. People usually give this title to only Led Zeppelin because they popularized it or Kinks but I think Day Tripper is heavier than You Really Got Me . Helter Skelter and I Want You (She's So Heavy) are far heavier and superior than anything Led produced.

11 January 2015
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I disagree @Hey Jude ! , but respectfully; you put forth a challenging opinion! (And I'm maybe the biggest Zep fan on the bible :) )

"Helter Skelter " is its own kinda beast, sloppier and lurchier (and "heavier" but only in its own way) than 90% of all of the "best" heavy metal (and that's a compliment to Beatles btw.) I can't see Zeppelin doing a "Helter Skelter " (maybe live, but not on one of their superbly-controlled studio albums.)

"She's So Heavy" (full title too long - and less appropriate to topic at hand) is another matter. That one I can directly compare to some similar Zeppelin epic (or "Zepic"), "Dazed And Confused". Both are typical-of-the-era "Let's end Side One in a BIG omg way!" hard rock symphonies with lotsa light & shade and varying guitar textures and crescendos leading to an expolosive finish. Lyrically, John outdid Jimmy/Percy in meathead-rock dumbassness (again, a compliment in context) by supplying fewer words than there are chords in the song. And the Beatles' implosive finish even outdoes Zep's EXPLOSIVE fuzzed-out finale, no mean feat. But ultimately, musically, for me "DAC" has the edge. They both build & build to a ferocious climax, Zeppelin with no lulls, the Beatles with (regretfully) one: John's guitar solo. I never (almost never) like solos that are just duplications of the vocal melody, sorry.

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26 March 2015
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New Topic: John Lennon and his modern day 'hero' status does he deserve it?

I don't think so, John is revered as some guy who wanted peace all around and was preaching how "All You Need Is Love "- yet the guy didn't even have stability in his own family. He abused at least two women who he was romantically linked with and neglected and verbally abused his own son. 

Just because he sang a communist utopia song and camped out in his bed for a week "for peace" doesn't make him some saintly angel which a lot of people make him out to be.

I truly believe if it weren't for him being murdered he wouldn't be considered as great a legend as he is now!

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26 March 2015
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No he doesnt for the reasons you stated yourself @AppleScruffJunior . Its a well crafted image that Yoko has helped establish and maintain since his murder, tho others at the time have a large share of the responsibility. Folk weren't ready for John to be gone, especially after he had only returned after 5 years out, and the way it happened only catapulted his reputation into something John knew he wasnt and never wanted to be remembered as such (there's a quote out there somewhere). 

But it helps makes money and keeps him in the spotlight.

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26 March 2015
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ahdn_paul_06I agree with you, @AppleScruffJunior. John Lennon was what he was, which was greatly talented, complicated, and above all HUMAN. By my estimation, John's murder made his legend somewhere around 900 times grander than it already was. ahdn_paul_01 
Ugh, legends. They're such horribly clunky things to have about. a-hard-days-night-paul-3

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26 March 2015
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AppleScruffJunior
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 I was hoping I wasn't going to get backlash!

While I tolerate Yoko to a reasonable extent, she comes across as a very domineering, controlling, money-hungry woman. I don't question her and John's relationship, it's just the tacky 'John Lennon mugs' with "Imagine Peace" scrawled across them.

Surely she has some respect for her late husband's image?

 It is why I appreciate Olivia far more than Yoko is that she hasn't "sold-out" George as much as Yoko has. Yes, you can find useless 'Dark Horse' crap on the official website but it's not as bad as John's merch is with his face plastered on the side of travel mugs, calenders and other paraphernalia.

Although the Harrison and Lennon estates combined are not half as bad as The Beatles 'Apple' junk. 

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26 March 2015
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If you want a bigger dose of this conversation see this thread: Was John Lennon a Hero?

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27 March 2015
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I also agree, @AppleScruffJunior. John was undoubtedly a great musician, but I feel his untimely death made people put him up on a higher pedestal than can be considered reasonable. I don't think I need to repeat the reasons mentioned above.

 

Putting people on pedestals is not a good idea to begin with, because then the only way they can go is down. John isn't around anymore, so he's stuck with that hero status forever. That in itself isn't the main issue since it won't bother him anymore. But I do think the remaining Beatles are the ones suffering from it. I see a lot of Paul and Ringo bashing. People are calling them all kinds of things. And when asked who the best Beatle was, most people choose John even though John said Paul was better (as a musician) than the others. As a person, I don't know. Like Paul sang in 'Early Days ': "Now everybody seems to have their own opinion of who did this and who did that. As for me, I don't see how they can remember when they weren't where we was at". All we know, from interviews is that John had a lot of respect and admiration for his band mates. I don't think he would have put himself on that pedestal, but there he is.

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5 April 2015
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This might be controversial but it came to mind earlier for this and so why the hell not. Related to the above - these are not my own views and no offence is meant and maybe no one will bother to reply.

Would John's legacy and the sense of loss at his death been as great if he had not returned to a more public life?

John's return to the music business in September 1980 and his more public persona in the month or two leading up to his death in December 1980 has resulted in a far more intense sense of loss and what could have been than had he been killed during the "house-husband" years or if he had not released 'Double Fantasy '. If he had been killed in the same way in 1979 his legacy would not be as ingrained as it is now as it is at least partly based on what could have been since his return to making music with Yoko, and the plans they had which were revealed in interviews at the time and after the fact.

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7 April 2015
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Von Bontee
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I don't think that's controversial at all. I can see how there'd be a far greater sense of tragedy involved if a semi-forgotten house hermit had died late in the '70s with so much unrecorded (unconceived-of?) music still in him. I believe that "Double Fantasy " wasn't initially as well-received critically and commercially as it might've been and that only in the aftermath of tragedy did it acquire its reputation as a masterful comeback. I'm sure that many people can imagine that John had an even finer album in him; I know that many people would've far preferred an entirely solo LP to one that he shared with his wife. And there must be many Beatle fans in the late '70s who were patiently awaiting just such an album.

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