Please consider registering
Guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
Creative Peak for each Beatle
10 August 2017
1.08pm
Avatar
meanmistermustard
Thankfully not where I am.
Moderator
Members

Reviewers


Moderators
Forum Posts: 24529
Member Since:
1 May 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Desmond said
There is an argument to be made that John had another, lesser but still significant, creative peak shown on Double Fantasy . I think that his half of the album was his best work since Imagine . After taking a break to raise Sean he had an untapped energy that can be seen throughout all of the tracks on the album. It is creative because he implements a new style that seems to incorporate the sound of the late 70s/ early 80s.   

Regarding 'Double Fantasy '; I can't stand 'Woman ' or 'Dear Yoko', 'Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)' and '(Just Like) Starting Over' are ok, Cleanup Time' annoys me as it sounds like it's missing a verse. That leaves only two tracks I often want to hear; 'I'm Losing You ' and 'Watching The Wheels '.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

10 August 2017
1.21pm
Avatar
Desmond
The Indra
Members
Forum Posts: 37
Member Since:
2 September 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It seems like we have different tastes but I am going to try to defend Cleanup Time:

After hearing Yoko have an orgasm with Kiss, Kiss, Kiss it seems to me like John is making a joke at the expense of Yoko. He is cleaning up the trash that she just put on the album by playing a classic rock song with a fantastic intro. The song includes fantastic riffs by John and a great horn accompaniment that helps to produce a fuller sound. Granted, the lyrics are nothing to write home but I love how nonchalantly he sings them. John just seems so cool and collected throughout the whole song. 

"Is it strange I should change?, I don't know, why don't you ask her?." - Neil Young

"As I'm sitting here doing nothing but aging, still my guitar gently weeps." -George Harrison

"Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you, forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you." -Bob Dylan

10 August 2017
1.35pm
Avatar
meanmistermustard
Thankfully not where I am.
Moderator
Members

Reviewers


Moderators
Forum Posts: 24529
Member Since:
1 May 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I like the song, it just sounds to me that another verse should be after 

"However far we travel,
Wherever we may roam,
The centre of the circle,
Will always be our home"

It sounds like it's been cut out.

I do like 'Every Man Has A Woman Who Loves Him' which is more a created John solo track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....3XO5MrDiRU

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

10 August 2017
1.56pm
Avatar
Desmond
The Indra
Members
Forum Posts: 37
Member Since:
2 September 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I understand what you are saying, it is a rather abrupt cut off. I love Every Man Has a Woman Who Loves Him, but I really wish that he sung it on the album instead of Yoko. Oh well!

"Is it strange I should change?, I don't know, why don't you ask her?." - Neil Young

"As I'm sitting here doing nothing but aging, still my guitar gently weeps." -George Harrison

"Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you, forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you." -Bob Dylan

10 August 2017
2.00pm
Avatar
sir walter raleigh
In our yellow (IN OUR YELLOW) submarine (SUBMARINE AHA!)
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 5649
Member Since:
26 January 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hard Times Are Over is also fantastic as the finale. Although sung by Yoko it has John's touch all over it. A really beautiful song. I do agree with Desmond that John could do no wrong on Double Fantasy . Yoko has some good work too, like Every Man Has A Woman Who Loves Him and Yes I'm Your Angel. Beautiful Boys is terrible and aside from the transition out of I'm Losing You , I'm Moving On is a very weak track. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

4 May 2020
2.45pm
Avatar
sir walter raleigh
In our yellow (IN OUR YELLOW) submarine (SUBMARINE AHA!)
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 5649
Member Since:
26 January 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've come to rethink how I view each Beatle's creative peak since I last discussed it. For John, I still believe his best output was Rubber Soul . Each song is perfectly crafted with a masterful understanding of melody and structure. Norwegian Wood , Girl, Nowhere Man all have a combination of Lyrics and Melody that come across as effortless and natural. I often describe Dylan's songwriting as songs that sound 300 years old, as if nobody ever wrote them they just came out of the ground and exploded into people's souls. John had attempted to imitate Dylan on Help !quite successfully, however on Rubber Soul he elevates it and changes the conventions ever so slightly in to add his own sensibilities. His lyrics are extremely personal while remaining universally relatable. The subjects vary, however, he seems fixated on a feeling of self-doubt, as well as regret. I find it unbelievable the way he is able to tackle some serious and sometimes dark personal issues while maintaining his acute pop sensibility. On Help ! we see a similar attempt to weave his personal issues into Beatles music, however, it seems on Rubber Soul he took a few more risks, both sonically and lyrically. Take Girl for example. It blew my mind the first time I heard it. Incorporating the sniffle as a principle part of the song's refrain is genius, no way around it. Conveying a sense of separation, sadness, loneliness, all by using one word and one sound (with the help of Beatles harmony). In my opinion, no other songwriter has ever been more on top of their craft than John was during Rubber Soul .

Obviously Rubber Soul is not an anomaly, as every member of the band produced great music throughout their entire career, however, I tend to see Rubber Soul as the culmination of John's own songwriting academy, having reached the pinnacle of folk-rock, a genre which he helped to invent. The drugs helped encourage experimentation on Revolver and Pepper, and I would argue the songs and sounds of those records, particularly those coming from John are a logical next step. I can not deny the mastery of Tomorrow Never Knows and Strawberry Fields Forever , because hearing those songs, they sound like they are written and sung by an ancient master, however, once he develops these experimental psychedelic chops and returns to his acoustic guitar in India, he finds a perfect middle ground between the experimental mastery and the folk songwriting mastery. While some of his White Album output sounds less involved than his Pepper or Revolver contributions, I hear it as the ultimate showcase of songwriting mastery. Lyrically experimental and inventive, melodically and harmonically he can do no wrong, every progression and every melody is perfect. Listen to how smooth the chord progression of Sexy Sadie loops through itself while he sends melody lines soaring up higher and higher before turning it back around "Sexy Sadie how did you know?" The alliteration is genius, and lyrically I've found a million different ways to relate to the song without every actually relating to John's experience which inspired the song. Take I'm So Tired or The Continuing Story Of Bungalow Bill ." John is in complete control of the pacing, articulating every consonant until the entire song comes to a screeching halt around a killer punch line. (ex: "captain marvel zapped him right between the eye-za!","curse sir walter raleigh he was such a stupid get" The musical flow of John's songs on the White Album is so fucking perfect and I will never get over it.

I guess my argument is that John reached the mountaintop during Rubber Soul , and somehow was able to break through into new realms of songwriting, which were fully realized on the White Album . Whether it be early days of Beatles or posthumous demos from his basement, John did not have a weak period of songwriting, however, these two instances are so overwhelmingly good, it is the reason I continue to go back to him and his music, and why I consider him to be the greatest songwriter of all time, despite my ever-growing appreciation for other songwriters, including his own bandmates. I will make another one of these posts for the other Beatles since I found it quite fun. If you've read to the end, thanks!two-virgins

The following people thank sir walter raleigh for this post:

Beatlebug, lovelyritametermaid, Ahhh Girl, Timothy, WeepingAtlasCedars, Von Bontee, all things must pass

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

4 May 2020
2.56pm
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 17744
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

More passionate rants on superlative songwriting please @sir walter raleigh ahdn_john_08_gif

The following people thank Beatlebug for this post:

sir walter raleigh, lovelyritametermaid, WeepingAtlasCedars

It verges from the sublime to the ridiculote
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
ScotsIrishFlag-1.jpeg avatar_creative_signature_Hmm.png Vietnam Heritage and Freedom Flag
StarSpangledBanner.png

4 May 2020
3.18pm
Avatar
lovelyritametermaid
You can meet me after heavy rain has fallen
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1445
Member Since:
5 December 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I very much enjoyed reading that wonderful piece celebrating the peaks of Lennon's songwriting and creative skill, @sir walter raleigh  and I wholeheartedly agree!! john-lennon-salute_gif

I think that's why Rubber Soul is my favorite-- it's not the "best" Beatles album, but it showcases the boys' breakthrough into a whole new realm of songwriting and progress, the gateway into the masterful records that come after it. Lennon's writing in particular, as you have noted, becoming more intimate and powerful and just feckin' fantastic. He explores new dark and personal messages that carry out beautifully in his lyricism and melodies. Even 'Run For Your Life ' carries such a theme-- I personally feel that the controversy surrounding it comes from people who just want to point fingers and who took the message perhaps a bit too seriously. Paul's bass playing also really shines through on Rubber Soul and we really see a start in his applying his knack for melodies and movement to the bass. 'Nowhere Man ''s bassline is a great example of such-- Paul takes a dreary song that Lennon wrote and drives it with a countermelodic upbeat bassline that bounces along until the very end. Overall, his bass on Rubber Soul is just so much more alive and present throughout than on their previous records and I absolutely love it beatlemaniacs_02_gif 

But anyhoo...... 

The following people thank lovelyritametermaid for this post:

Beatlebug, sir walter raleigh, WeepingAtlasCedars

"....When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind...." 

"....This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around...."

 ||She/They ||

4 May 2020
6.37pm
Avatar
Timothy
Nutopia
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1829
Member Since:
14 June 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

sir walter raleigh said
I guess my argument is that John reached the mountaintop during Rubber Soul , and somehow was able to break through into new realms of songwriting, which were fully realized on the White Album . Whether it be early days of Beatles or posthumous demos from his basement, John did not have a weak period of songwriting, however, these two instances are so overwhelmingly good, it is the reason I continue to go back to him and his music, and why I consider him to be the greatest songwriter of all time, despite my ever-growing appreciation for other songwriters, including his own bandmates. I will make another one of these posts for the other Beatles since I found it quite fun. If you've read to the end, thanks!

  

Enjoyed reading this and I agree with your well thought out assessment @sir walter raleigh. John was actually lucky to be suffering in his life during those songwriting periods because he always had inspiration to tap into. Once he had that inspiration he could write quickly. His real joy was being possessed 'like a medium', as he said. 

1.The Beatles 2.Sgt. Pepper 3.Abbey Road 4.Magical Mystery Tour 5.Rubber Soul 6.Revolver 7.Help! 8.Let It Be
9.A Hard Day’s Night 10.Please Please Me 11.Beatles For Sale 12.With The Beatles 13.Yellow Submarine

Most Avid John Fan 2020 and 2021: john.png john.png

7 May 2020
3.51pm
Avatar
alittlebitolder
There Is A Place
Carnegie Hall
Members
Forum Posts: 519
Member Since:
28 April 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

John - I think John was at his most creative and original, from a songwriting point of view, from 'Rubber Soul ' through to 'I Am The Walrus '. I do think that he needed Paul to help realise his ideas though. He was still great and wrote songs at a really high standard, after this, from the 'White Album ' to 'Imagine '. with a little dip in 1969. He lost his way a bit when he moved to New York. The standard of his vocals were great the whole way through and never really dipped.

Paul - I think his songwriting peak was from 'Revolver ' through to 'Abbey Road '. His solo career was patchy at best, some peaks, but a lot of troughs too. I think his songs relied on melody more than John's, so if the melodies were weaker, the songs weren't as good? His vocals were brilliant and at their best, from 1968 through to at least 'Ram '. 'Ram ' was amazing vocally!

George - His songwriting peak was from the 'White Album ' through to 'All Things Must Pass '. His guitar playing probably peaked late 60s to early 70s.

Ringo - He didn't really have a songwriting peak, but as a drummer, probably from Revolver through to Plastic Ono Band / All Things Must Pass .

7 May 2020
4.09pm
Avatar
lovelyritametermaid
You can meet me after heavy rain has fallen
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1445
Member Since:
5 December 2019
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

During his solo career, I would argue that Paul hit creative peaks at McCartney and Ram (definitely), Band On The Run (the only time he really "peaked" when he was with Wings, though during that phase, of course, he had a few other great songs scattered throughout), in the early 80's with McCartney II   and Tug Of War , and then sort of leveled off until Flaming Pie and then, of course, Chaos And Creation In The Backyard

"....When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind...." 

"....This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around...."

 ||She/They ||

7 May 2020
5.02pm
Avatar
alittlebitolder
There Is A Place
Carnegie Hall
Members
Forum Posts: 519
Member Since:
28 April 2020
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

lovelyritametermaid said
During his solo career, I would argue that Paul hit creative peaks at McCartney and Ram (definitely), Band On The Run (the only time he really "peaked" when he was with Wings, though during that phase, of course, he had a few other great songs scattered throughout), in the early 80's with McCartney II   and Tug Of War , and then sort of leveled off until Flaming Pie and then, of course, Chaos And Creation In The Backyard

  

I agree with you regarding Paul's solo career. 'Maybe I'm Amazed ' was one of his best ever songs and one of the best ever solo songs by any of The Beatles. However, it is by far the best song on 'McCartney, I think, though I do like some of the others like 'Junk' and 'Every Night '. There are some weak songs on 'McCartney' as well though. I think 'Ram ' is his strongest album of songs and obviously 'Band On The Run ' being his best known. However, I don't think it is as strong as 'Ram ' and I think that there are a few weak songs on 'BOTR' as well. Most of his albums have some good songs, but also some forgettable ones too. I haven't heard  'Chaos And Creation In The Backyard ' yet ... I sort of lost touch with Paul's solo albums after 'Flower's In The Dirt' even though I saw him in concert in Liverpool, when he toured that album ... the only Beatle I have ever seen in concert.

The following people thank alittlebitolder for this post:

lovelyritametermaid
7 May 2020
5.14pm
Avatar
Ron Nasty
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 12045
Member Since:
17 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

alittlebitolder said 
George - His songwriting peak was from the 'White Album ' through to 'All Things Must Pass '. His guitar playing probably peaked late 60s to early 70s. 

It should be noted that several songs on All Things Must Pass  dated back to 1966-67, so predate the WA.

The following people thank Ron Nasty for this post:

lovelyritametermaid, WeepingAtlasCedars

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

To @ Ron Nasty it's @ mja6758
The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

7 May 2020
7.59pm
Avatar
Timothy
Nutopia
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1829
Member Since:
14 June 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

John in his solo career - Plastic Ono and Imagine .

However his Double Fantasy /Milk And Honey era is pretty impressive for the tone he went for. 

The following people thank Timothy for this post:

lovelyritametermaid

1.The Beatles 2.Sgt. Pepper 3.Abbey Road 4.Magical Mystery Tour 5.Rubber Soul 6.Revolver 7.Help! 8.Let It Be
9.A Hard Day’s Night 10.Please Please Me 11.Beatles For Sale 12.With The Beatles 13.Yellow Submarine

Most Avid John Fan 2020 and 2021: john.png john.png

Forum Timezone: America/Chicago
Most Users Ever Online: 700
Currently Online: meaigs
Guest(s) 1
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
Starr Shine?: 16104
Ron Nasty: 12045
Zig: 9832
50yearslate: 8743
Necko: 7968
AppleScruffJunior: 7553
parlance: 7111
mr. Sun king coming together: 6403
Mr. Kite: 6147
trcanberra: 6064
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 88
Members: 2743
Moderators: 5
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 3
Forums: 44
Topics: 5129
Posts: 367752
Newest Members:
Harry Georgeson, galapogosian, LemonZest, Maddingway, furi0usbee
Moderators: Joe: 5268, meanmistermustard: 24529, Ahhh Girl: 20733, Beatlebug: 17744, The Hole Got Fixed: 8397
Administrators: Joe: 5268