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21 February 2013
5.09pm
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vonbontee
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Are there really examples of incorrect sleeve notes? I can't name even a dozen tracks that provide ANY instrumentation information.

Someone said 'What were you gonna do when it's all finished,' and I said 'I don't know but it'd be good fun being a DJ.' And since then I've become a DJ, only by word of mouth, you know. SO any minute now you'll read, 'Ringo leaves to become a DJ' but it's not true. - Ringo Starr

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21 February 2013
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Ron Nasty
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I couldn't name them off the top of my head, without re-reading and comparing. But there are definitely a few, and definitely more than  a dozen tracks that provide instrumentation information. Remember Please Please Me  through to Revolver  all included varying degrees of information.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

21 February 2013
6.53pm
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Into the Sky with Diamonds
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Do you think the Beatles (and Brian Epstein and George Martin) would have allowed albums to go out with flatly incorrect liner notes?

But here's another angle:

Most of the riffs are pretty easy to play. Ringo could have played them.

I'm not so curious as to who played what in the studio

What I wonder is, "Who came up with them?" They're all wonderfully creative and effective.

For all the reasons you guys have mentioned, you can't assume that the person who came up with the riff is actually the one playing it.

 

 

 

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21 February 2013
7.10pm
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Beatlebob63
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If I could add my 2 Beatle 'sense' to this very interesting topic you lads have opened up; concerning TTR, LENNON is playing the opening chime, riff, whatever you want to call it, hands down, Lennon, his song, his riff, songs is about his Mother Julia  by the way. 

He's playing a Fender Ventura, (power blue) given to him by, uh, the Fender guys.  He played it on that track and put it down after that.  Gave it away.  Yes, there are a couple of different guitars on those tracks, McCartney is playing lead in the solo.  You can so tell it's him, George's solo's are like Clapton's, if you're a guitar player you'll understand.  Those guys played more fluidly, hard to explain, more notes and with a 'slow hand' as they say.  McCartney is more in the box type of playing, kind of less sweeping licks like George and less picking up and down the neck getting back to the root chord like George, George was more intricate less predictable.

Just listen to 'McCartney', Maybe I'm Amazed , Every Night , that's all Paul obviously...solos are very 'square', nothing crazy or too inventive but enough to get through the solo, similarly to the way he plays drums, not too high, not too low, fill here or there.  He is/was a very accomplished acoustic guy though, "I've Just Seen A Face " etc.. and that's not so easy to distinguish from him and George. 

Now when you listen to the lead on Another Girl after hearing what I just said, you'll  be able to pick Paul's solo's out of a lineup.  Listen to the end of Another Girl , he barely gets to the end of the song and the final note with Ringo he almost missed it dragging behind, I laugh every time I hear the end, he's slow, he's not a lead guy..but he's Paul, musically inclined with any instrument but Bass is his Vitality.  So when you ask about George, why is he not playing any of these 2 solo's or any other one's he's not playing, it's because Paul (or John) chose to.  Why do you think George was so pissed all the time?  Bad enough he was relegated to one track per side, now you're taking some of the solo work away from him, on songs he could do in his sleep?   That's what I think and know.....Beatle Gear by Andy Babiuk, read that one....every instrument, every solo...Lewissohn's good, this is the best book, that and Here There And Everywhere by Geoff Emerick.

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21 February 2013
7.21pm
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Ron Nasty
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Two questions Beatlebob63. You say Lewisohn's is the best book. He states that Paul played lead on "the characteristic opening sequence". What do you think he is referring to there? Also, what is your source for TTR being about Julia ? I have never come across this idea before. Heard various tales of TTR inspiration, but never that one.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

21 February 2013
7.29pm
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meanmistermustard
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I have not much to say about anything at the moment however there are errors in Lewisohns books, he himself has admitted it. Thats not to say they are not essential and some of the best books out there on the Beatles (if you dont own them get them), just that they should not be accepted 100% without question, more 99%.

Beatlebob63 said
If I could add my 2 Beatle 'sense' to this very interesting topic you lads have opened up; concerning TTR, LENNON is playing the opening chime, riff, whatever you want to call it, hands down, Lennon, his song, his riff, songs is about his Mother Julia by the way.

Ive heard that before but havent seen any decent evidence to support it and it seems more far-fetched to me than the others (was it not tied to her being knocked down and killed by a police car, i forget exactly the link). There are a number of theories about what inspired the song, what it is about, but nothing is definately the answer as far as im aware. At least no-one has tried to add it to the Paul is Dead conspiracy clues.

 

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21 February 2013
8.24pm
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Beatlebob63 said
If I could add my 2 Beatle 'sense' to this very interesting topic you lads have opened up; concerning TTR, LENNON is playing the opening chime, riff, whatever you want to call it, hands down, Lennon, his song, his riff, songs is about his Mother Julia  by the way. 

He's playing a Fender Ventura, (power blue) given to him by, uh, the Fender guys.  He played it on that track and put it down after that.  Gave it away.  Yes, there are a couple of different guitars on those tracks, McCartney is playing lead in the solo.  You can so tell it's him, George's solo's are like Clapton's, if you're a guitar player you'll understand.  Those guys played more fluidly, hard to explain, more notes and with a 'slow hand' as they say.  McCartney is more in the box type of playing, kind of less sweeping licks like George and less picking up and down the neck getting back to the root chord like George, George was more intricate less predictable.

Just listen to 'McCartney', Maybe I'm Amazed , Every Night , that's all Paul obviously...solos are very 'square', nothing crazy or too inventive but enough to get through the solo, similarly to the way he plays drums, not too high, not too low, fill here or there.  He is/was a very accomplished acoustic guy though, "I've Just Seen A Face " etc.. and that's not so easy to distinguish from him and George. 

Now when you listen to the lead on Another Girl after hearing what I just said, you'll  be able to pick Paul's solo's out of a lineup.  Listen to the end of Another Girl , he barely gets to the end of the song and the final note with Ringo he almost missed it dragging behind, I laugh every time I hear the end, he's slow, he's not a lead guy..but he's Paul, musically inclined with any instrument but Bass is his Vitality.  So when you ask about George, why is he not playing any of these 2 solo's or any other one's he's not playing, it's because Paul (or John) chose to.  Why do you think George was so pissed all the time?  Bad enough he was relegated to one track per side, now you're taking some of the solo work away from him, on songs he could do in his sleep?   That's what I think and know.....Beatle Gear by Andy Babiuk, read that one....every instrument, every solo...Lewissohn's good, this is the best book, that and Here There And Everywhere by Geoff Emerick.

Ask Me Why I Want To Tell You

 

Very well put especially that he could do the solos in his sleep. For some reason I still feel a lot of fans are trying to compare McCartney's guitar ability with George's and there is no comparison. George was a far better guitarist and you are right, McCartney is not a lead guy. He is an excellent acoustic player but not lead. This is why he brings in good guitar players like Anderson to take over that spot in his songs.

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21 February 2013
9.19pm
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vonbontee
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And yet Paul was good enough to take searing solos on "Taxman " and "Good Morning Good Morning "

Someone said 'What were you gonna do when it's all finished,' and I said 'I don't know but it'd be good fun being a DJ.' And since then I've become a DJ, only by word of mouth, you know. SO any minute now you'll read, 'Ringo leaves to become a DJ' but it's not true. - Ringo Starr

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21 February 2013
9.39pm
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Ron Nasty
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vonbontee said
And yet Paul was good enough to take searing solos on "Taxman " and "Good Morning Good Morning "

This would be my point. While Lewisohn made mistakes, and admitted them, he has rarely been wrong about who played what, having had the privilege of hearing the raw tapes. TTR is one of the songs that he gives a detailed breakdown on, and he names Paul as playing the opening lead guitar. Yet there are those, despite his achievements as lead guitarist on songs he didn't write, who want to take away from him something that all the sources, primary and secondary, said he did.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

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21 February 2013
11.53pm
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RunForYourLife
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It's hardly unique to Paul. I've seen the solos in "She's A Woman ", "Slow Down ", "Run For Your Life " among others erroneously credited to he and John.

22 February 2013
2.16am
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So.... just to be contrarian.

McCartney is not a lead guitarist, we can all agree on that. He's never had to; he's never shown an inclination to practice speed and agility; he's never recorded anything more than flights of notes as solos.

But

- he's always been an extraordinarily inventive guitarist. I don't know that I agree that he's always "in the box" as Beatlebob63 says (by the way, welcome Beatlebob63). By "in the box" I assume you mean that a solo from a song in the key of A will be within frets 5-7? "Blackbird " doesn't sound "in the box" nor does "Hot As Sun" (from McCartney). As in the box as they may be, McCartney's little frills in "Another Girl "  and the solo in "The Night Before " work beautifully.

- Harrison was not the prototypical "rock" lead guitarist either.  The only awesome Beatle guitar solo is by Clapton. Harrison was more of a country band guitarist, throwing in little fills and frills (my favorite being the intro to "Octopus Garden") and also being very inventive.

(By the way, who came up with the guitar riffs for "I'm Only Sleeping "? George? John?)

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22 February 2013
2.26am
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Ron Nasty
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Though for quite a while he was The Beatles lead guitarist, after George messed up his live debut as lead with sticky fingers. Remember, when Stu was in the band, it was only John who had a set role as rhythm guitarist. George and Paul were alternating between lead and 2nd rhythm. You cannot ignore the hours and hours when they were a five-piece.

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22 February 2013
5.02am
sinco
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
The only awesome Beatle guitar solo is by Clapton.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by 'awesome', but I think the Hey Bulldog guitar solo sounds pretty awesome!

22 February 2013
1.40pm
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Into the Sky with Diamonds
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Hi Sinco, you're talking to the world's #1 "Hey Bulldog " fan.

Hi heard it one morning on the radio in '68, loved it instantly - and the song disappeared. I wasn't even really sure who the band was.

[As we were just saying in another thread here on the Forum, the song was not in the American release of the Yellow Submarine movie].

And then of course I found it on the album.

Having said all that, it's a perfectly good guitar solo (as is the solo on the single version of Let It Be , I Don't Want To Spoil The Party , Nowhere Man , ...) but if I had to take 20 guitar solos with me on a desert island, I don't know that there would be a Harrison solo in there. His solos complement Beatle songs beautifully, like having just the right mustard on a sandwich, but I don't think of them as awesome solos in their own right.

And just to emphasize the point, that's not a knock on him. His guitar playing was perfect for the Beatles - and that's what you want out of your lead guitarist.

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22 February 2013
2.14pm
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Hi Sinco, you're talking to the world's #1 "Hey Bulldog " fan.

Hi heard it one morning on the radio in '68, loved it instantly - and the song disappeared. I wasn't even really sure who the band was.

[As we were just saying in another thread here on the Forum, the song was not in the American release of the Yellow Submarine movie].

And then of course I found it on the album.

Having said all that, it's a perfectly good guitar solo (as is the solo on the single version of Let It Be , I Don't Want To Spoil The Party , Nowhere Man , ...) but if I had to take 20 guitar solos with me on a desert island, I don't know that there would be a Harrison solo in there. His solos complement Beatle songs beautifully, like having just the right mustard on a sandwich, but I don't think of them as awesome solos in their own right.

And just to emphasize the point, that's not a knock on him. His guitar playing was perfect for the Beatles - and that's what you want out of your lead guitarist.

You know, I was ready to disagree with you with your Clapton comment, but I read the above and...I agree with you 100%. He was a great guitarist and perfect for The Beatles, but if you're going to stand his solos up to others by Clapton, Page, Hendrix, Townshend, etc you wouldn't even pick one. And again, as a HUGE Beatles fan myself, not a knock on George. I'd feel the same about Ringo...a fantastic drummer and perfect for the band, but you wouldn't put him in the same breath as Moon, Bonham, etc

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22 February 2013
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Do you think the Beatles (and Brian Epstein and George Martin) would have allowed albums to go out with flatly incorrect liner notes?

But here's another angle:

Most of the riffs are pretty easy to play. Ringo could have played them.

I'm not so curious as to who played what in the studio

What I wonder is, "Who came up with them?" They're all wonderfully creative and effective.

For all the reasons you guys have mentioned, you can't assume that the person who came up with the riff is actually the one playing it.

Exactly. I can understand curiosity of who played what, but it was their role in the group, they didn't came up with that sound. Ticket To Ride is Lennon's song, and no matter who played the opening riff, it was his composition, his chords, call it whatever you like, and who plays it is irrelevant as all their guitar skills were good enough to play any of their songs. It was like John played solo on Get back, but that was Paul song, his "solo" no matter who played it.

P.S. Let's not make this a Paul vs George thread again :)

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22 February 2013
2.58pm
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vonbontee
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Couldn't agree more. Let's mix it up a bit and make it a Paul vs. Ringo thread! "It was PAUL who thought up that distinctive drum part for Ringo to play!" "But Ringo played it better than Paul ever could! His 'touch' is absolutely, uniquely his and his alone!" Etc.

Actually, motivated by this thread, I was listening to Help ! (and AHDN and For Sale) last night, thinking about this song and wishing, not for the first time, that Ringo had continued to use that beat throughout the second half of the song, rather than just abandoning it right after the first bridge. I wonder why he did that?

Someone said 'What were you gonna do when it's all finished,' and I said 'I don't know but it'd be good fun being a DJ.' And since then I've become a DJ, only by word of mouth, you know. SO any minute now you'll read, 'Ringo leaves to become a DJ' but it's not true. - Ringo Starr

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22 February 2013
3.46pm
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Long John Silver said

Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Do you think the Beatles (and Brian Epstein and George Martin) would have allowed albums to go out with flatly incorrect liner notes?

But here's another angle:

Most of the riffs are pretty easy to play. Ringo could have played them.

I'm not so curious as to who played what in the studio

What I wonder is, "Who came up with them?" They're all wonderfully creative and effective.

For all the reasons you guys have mentioned, you can't assume that the person who came up with the riff is actually the one playing it.

Exactly. I can understand curiosity of who played what, but it was their role in the group, they didn't came up with that sound. Ticket To Ride is Lennon's song, and no matter who played the opening riff, it was his composition, his chords, call it whatever you like, and who plays it is irrelevant as all their guitar skills were good enough to play any of their songs. It was like John played solo on Get back, but that was Paul song, his "solo" no matter who played it.

P.S. Let's not make this a Paul vs George thread again :)

 

Thank you!

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26 February 2013
10.41pm
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Beatlebob63
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Hey guys, my writing interpretation (phrasing) was a little off, Mark Lewissohn's book I meant was good, but the best book is Andy Babiuk's Beatle Gear Revised addition and Here There Everywhere, Geoff Emerick, I didn't write the way I meant, my bad.  All I was trying to say there, is (Babiuk's) said  through his extensive research that Lennon played the opening licks to TTR, hands down I agree because usually whoever wrote it sung lead and some capacity played a dominant

riff or in Lennon's case, the beginning, he plays it at Shea.  Is George capable? of course, but Lennon's playing the studio opening in my book.   I mean, look at Lennon in Get Back , he had no business playing that lead, I was surprised as anyone before I saw all the pictures as a kid and the movie later on that it was him, I assumed it was George, he got better on lead, heroin addict or not at the time.  Lennon was very sick during Let it be, car accidents, missing studio time but that's another area of the FORUM.  Won't bore you here.

But anyway, I read in and am still reading, LENNON, a very comprehensive book about him and THEM that TTR was definitely inspired by his mom.  I didn't think it was until I read that and listened to the words. He's talking about her saying goodbye, not coming back, 'she oughta think twice, she outta do right by me"....that's his mum he's talking about...the most dominant female in his life before Yoko came to town.  Plus he called Yoko mother all the time...that's not an English thing I don't believe, that's just weird....at least that's what George thought at that time.

Hey, I was as surprised as you guys are/were, but I read TTR being about his mom.  Sorry about the confusion of the book's above, Mark's is not correct in addressing the opening of TTR or at least I don't agree with it.  What do I know, I wasn't there but I did/do read a lot and it stuck, that fact.  I'll back it up somehow if you guys don't believe me...

 

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26 February 2013
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Monkey Finger
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 if I had to take 20 guitar solos with me on a desert island, I don't know that there would be a Harrison solo in there. His solos complement Beatle songs beautifully, like having just the right mustard on a sandwich, but I don't think of them as awesome solos in their own right. And just to emphasize the point, that's not a knock on him. His guitar playing was perfect for the Beatles - and that's what you want out of your lead guitarist.

 

To me, perfectly complimenting the song is the definition of a great solo. One of my pet peeves of guitarists is busy, overcomplicated solos that don't serve the song. In keeping with that, George's solo on "Something " is not only one of his best (if not THE best), I'd rank it up there in the best ever, period. Melodic, simple yet dynamic and emotional. Everything you could want in a solo.

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