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Should "Free as a Bird" and "Real Love" count as canon Beatles Songs?
1 December 2014
10.27pm
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meanmistermustard
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Necko said
Yeah.  I count them.

It's the closest thing there will ever be to a Beatles reunion.  Also, you have to keep in mind that there are many songs, especially from the White Album onwards, that only some of the Beatles appear on.  Technically, Real Love and Free As A Bird are Beatles songs more so than Why Don't We Do It In The Road?, Don't Pass Me By , and She Said She Said , because the full line-up (plus Jeff Lynne) appears on the reunion songs.

The issue i have with that argument is that whilst all four don't play on a number of songs ('Yesterday ', 'Blackbird ', 'Julia ' etc) all four either agreed to their release or didn't stop them from being released. With 'Free As A Bird ' and 'Real Love ' John couldn't.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

1 December 2014
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trcanberra
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onlyasouthernsong said
This is an issue that sometimes comes up when discussing the Beatles songs, is that "Should those 2 new songs from Anthology count?" 

In my opinion, they should count, simply by the virtue of having Paul, George, and Ringo performing on them, and that they themselves label it as "The Beatles". I mean, if "I Me Mine " counts with having those 3, why can't this?

Count according to who (or whom - or whatever it is)?

According to the surviving Beatles they do - and that is good enough for me.

I have been listening to a lot of the Beach Boys albums lately and if I was as fussed as some folks here are about those two songs then about 50% of the songs on the albums wouldn't 'count' as Beach Boys tracks (because Mr. Beloved Wilson didn't have much or any involvement on them).

 

So, my tenet is, if I like a song I will listen to it and enjoy it and I don't give a fig who counts them as Beatles or Beach Boys or Rolling Stones (one of them died) or The Who (ditto) etc. etc.  I don't need someone else to validate my opinions.

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1 December 2014
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Linde
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I don't count them. I only count their albums as canon. Everything released after 1970, after the split up is solo work in my eyes. There are songs on Ringo's records which George and John play on. So that's 3 Beatles. Does that mean they're automatically Beatles records? No it does not.

There are Beatles songs with only 1 or 2 Beatles on them. Are they part of the canon? Yes, because they were meant to go on Beatles albums. The others were aware of that.

Real Love and FAAB obviously were never meant to go on Beatles albums, and John wasn't aware of them being recorded, as he was dead. He wasn't there. To me it's just Lennon solo work that was reworked (and screwed up in my eyes) for the Anthology. The Beatles were still split up. I don't count this as a reunion at all. I have always found, and still find it, a very weird idea how they just took a tape of John's and completely frankensteined it.

2 December 2014
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trcanberra
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Linde said
I don't count them. I only count their albums as canon. Everything released after 1970, after the split up is solo work in my eyes. There are songs on Ringo's records which George and John play on. So that's 3 Beatles. Does that mean they're automatically Beatles records? No it does not.

[SNIP]

Do those records have the Beatles name listed as the artist?  Didn't think so.

I wonder how folks here would have coped if the lads had replaced Paul with Klaus and gone on recording as the Beatles.  I think we sometimes treat them like an inviolate religious object unlike other bands where members come and go, no wonder John was keen to be away from them.

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9 July 2015
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I have to agree with ExTex, in that if it's released under The Beatles and with their approval, it is canon - including the Anthologies, LIBN, BBC, YSST, Hollywood Bowl...

For FAAB and RL - what if instead, the three had not used John's demos at all and simply got together and wrote new songs?  No Lennon involvement at all (even if John were still alive).  If that gets an official release as The Beatles, it's canon.  I think we were all very lucky that the guys cared enough about John to include him when, if they were just about any lesser band, they would have tried a comeback reunion to simply cash in.

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9 July 2015
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Bongo
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YES!    It's released as The Beatles, therefore it is canon!apple02apple01

I also consider Parlophones 1966 "A Collection Of Oldies But Goldies" LP as part of their canon, because of the song "Bad Boy"! a-hard-days-night-ringo-15

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9 July 2015
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Beatlebug
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I don't include them in my personal canon, just because I don't think of them in the same way I do other songs. But I still count them as Beatles songs. 

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9 July 2015
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Mr Nasty and I and others had a ding dong over this issue.......Obviously it wasn't in this thread??

I've said all I can about this and just agree to disagree. The 'It's not canon' were/are the winners I can live with that.

 

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10 July 2015
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Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<
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For what it's worth, I do consider 'Real Love ' and 'Free As A Bird ' Beatles songs. Yes, John was dead, so I definitely see where people are coming from. But I see it like this:

John recorded those demos for Paul. I would guess he knew, perhaps even hoped, Paul would do something with those tapes. Perhaps it was meant as an olive branch, we'll never know. But the simple fact that he recorded those songs for Paul, makes John a contributor. Especially since apart from fixing the bad audio quality, John's parts are kept mostly intact, and the "whatever happened to..." bits were he same note for note; they just completed the lyrics; not unlike they have done so many times in the past.

So by that definition, I do consider them Beatles songs. So do/did George, Paul, and Ringo. That's good enough for me, so I'm including them in what *I* consider to be Beatles Canon. 

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10 July 2015
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meanmistermustard
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'Real Love ' wasnt recorded for Paul; John had planned to include a recording of it on the follow up to 'Double Fantasy '. Can't honestly say for definite about 'FAAB' but i would doubt it since John ditched the song in 1977 after a few run-throughs on piano - the same as he did for hundreds of demos. Anyway isnt one theory that 'FAAB' is about John getting away from the 'Beatles', someone posted that on here.

Its all a great Hollywood story; John records demos for Paul to break the ice and reunite the Lennon-McCartney partnership and friendship which unfortunately gets stopped by his senseless murder only for Yoko and Paul to make a way and give us 2 wonderful Beatles tracks and a full blown reunion; but in my opinion thats just Hollywood gloss. 

I know the story goes that Paul approached Yoko but it was actually George and Neil according to Yoko.

Ono says that it was Harrison and former Beatles road manager Neil Aspinall who initially asked her about the concept of adding vocals and instrumentation to Lennon's demo tapes. Ono stated: "People have said it was all agreed when Paul came over to New York to induct John into "The Rock And Roll Hall of Fame", but it was all settled before then. I just used that occasion to hand over the tapes personally to Paul." (souce: wiki)

And to be honest i cant see George being too enamored at finishing two tracks that were for Paul only.

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10 July 2015
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onlyasouthernsong said
This is an issue that sometimes comes up when discussing the Beatles songs, is that "Should those 2 new songs from Anthology count?" 

In my opinion, they should count, simply by the virtue of having Paul, George, and Ringo performing on them, and that they themselves label it as "The Beatles". I mean, if "I Me Mine " counts with having those 3, why can't this?

I'm not so sure. If it wasn't approved by all four of them, it's hard for it to be labelled a true Beatles track, in my eyes.

Lots of stuff on The White Album was written & recorded entirely without the involvement of the other members, for example, but they all approved the final track listing for the record. When John passed the chance for any truly new Beatles material passed with him, I think.

10 July 2015
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Listen up folks, if Joe has them in his Beatles Bible Discography, then it is the end of this discussion....a-hard-days-night-paul-11

https://www.beatlesbible.com/d.....kingdom/2/

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10 July 2015
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Necko
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Honestly, I didn't realize that anyone wouldn't consider them to be before this forum.

I'm Necko.  I'm like Ringo except I wear necklaces.

I'm also ewe2 on weekends.

Most likely to post things that make you go hmm... 2015, 2016, 2017. 

10 July 2015
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meanmistermustard
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The difference i think is in what people like me are getting it. The Beatles discography is like a cake with two (or three depending on how you want to see it*) tiers - or nice decoration. The first tier is the canon which comprises of all songs released on Parlophone and Apple between October 1962 and May 1970. Then you get the non-canon tier(s) that is everything on Anthology, BBC etc; offically released but after the split and not included on 'Please Please Me ' to 'Let It Be ' + 'Past Masters '. Its all Beatles just not all canon. 

 

*Some would argue that 'FAAB' and 'RL' would fall into the third layer simply because it wasnt even recorded between the time John and Paul met and the Beatles split. Some may even go further and opine that anything pre-Ringo is not 'Beatles'. 

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10 July 2015
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IMHO, people put too much emphasis on the canon thing. Who cares if it's considered canon or not? If it's the Beatles, it's the Beatles. But that's just how I feel about it a-hard-days-night-ringo-15

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10 July 2015
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meanmistermustard
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For me it matters in how you assess and view their output. The singles and albums the Beatles put out between '62 and '70 was highly (i cant think of the right word) - had to meet a high standard by the four, Brian and George Martin and therefore shouldnt be viewed, analysed, included and measured alongside extraneous material from the 'Anthology', 'BBC' etc. Some view it (and I think Apple see it the same way) that if outtakes from 'Let It Be ' for example are issued they will damage the Beatles canon and legacy as they don't stand up to material such as what was put out from that period offically on the singles or 'Let It Be ' album.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

10 July 2015
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meanmistermustard said
The difference i think is in what people like me are getting it. The Beatles discography is like a cake with two (or three depending on how you want to see it*) tiers - or nice decoration. The first tier is the canon which comprises of all songs released on Parlophone and Apple between October 1962 and May 1970. Then you get the non-canon tier(s) that is everything on Anthology, BBC etc; offically released but after the split and not included on 'Please Please Me ' to 'Let It Be ' + 'Past Masters '. Its all Beatles just not all canon. 

 

*Some would argue that 'FAAB' and 'RL' would fall into the third layer simply because it wasnt even recorded between the time John and Paul met and the Beatles split. Some may even go further and opine that anything pre-Ringo is not 'Beatles'. 

That post had me in tiers!

10 July 2015
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^Snort. LOL, @Wigwam.
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I do a lot of work all year. It is all mine. However, I only put the best stuff from the year in my evaluation portfolio. That's my "canon".

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10 July 2015
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@Bongo  said
Listen up folks, if Joe has them in his Beatles Bible Discography, then it is the end of this discussion....a-hard-days-night-paul-11

https://www.beatlesbible.com/d.....kingdom/2/

If you were to quote @Joe, surely the reference should be to the Song List. Now, how does he comment there...

Welcome to the Beatles Bible song list. On this page you'll find links to articles on all the songs recorded by The Beatles during their career, from Love Me Do to Let It Be .

We've also written about the Anthology tracks, live radio-only recordings from Live At The BBC , and a few extras - such as Child Of Nature and Carnival Of Light - which deserved to be included too.

Now, I am not claiming this represents Joe's view in any way, it does however acknowledge two clear groups of songs, with acceptance of a third group of songs (unreleased) some of which nudge their way into the second because of their mythical status.

EDIT: And all I am trying to say here, is don't represent the Discography as Joe's final word on how things are judged. It is a very nuanced assessment, and many of us ses those nuances slightly differently. It's what makes here endlessly fascinating.

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11 July 2015
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Ron Nasty said

@Bongo  said
Listen up folks, if Joe has them in his Beatles Bible Discography, then it is the end of this discussion....a-hard-days-night-paul-11

https://www.beatlesbible.com/d.....kingdom/2/

If you were to quote @Joe, surely the reference should be to the Song List. Now, how does he comment there...

"Song List" is also a pretty good indication, unfortunately it also lists the george-martin Instrumental songs from Yellow Submarine which we can assume, are not Beatles canon. Or are they?????? But no Instrumental songs from the US Capitol Help !

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