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17 March 2017
4.47pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Alternative track 1 + 2 in my mind:

1. Birthday  

2. Piggies

3. Glass Onion

4. Ob La Di

5. Dear Prudence

etc

opener for side two: Back In The USSR

 

That could work.

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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17 March 2017
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Dark Overlord
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Von Bontee said
Well, as you'll see earlier on the thread (and elsewhere on the site) there's always speculation (dubious or not) that "Prudence" has more than one drum track, and Ringo contributes. (Doubt he did vocals myself.) And if he had nothing to do with either of the two openers, I wouldn't take it as a disrespectful move in particular - keep in mind that Ringo had the album closer all to himself, and the last song on the final side is at least as prestigious a spot as Side One, Track One (if not more). 

Anyways, I think "Back In The USSR " is as close to an obvious album opener as one can imagine, regardless of Ringo's absence or not. And I can't imagine any other track besides "Pru" following it up, certainly not after hearing that particular combination so many hundreds of times over the last 30+ years!  

It is possible that the drum track is a composite similar to Back In The USSR with Ringo doing additional drums although it seems that Paul did drums on the backing track, who knows, maybe Ringo did some overdubs to this song on September 3rd. As for Back In The USSR , I doubt Ringo's anywhere on that track although I wouldn't be surprised if some guy is on the internet claiming that Ringo did drums on the backing track and what Paul was really bothering him about was the tom tom fills that he wanted as an overdub.

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6 May 2017
2.47pm
Fastbak
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Even if Ringo didn't play on the track, I think he had an influence on how Paul played because he had long before established what drums on a Beatles song should sound like. It should have a steady, unwavering beat with fills only at the right moments while having it's own unique feel. When you hear "Back in the U.S.S.R." or "Dear Prudence " you don't notice that the drumming is any different.They sound like they fit the song which is what Ringo's true genius was. He never imposed a style on the songs. He let the songs dictate what the drumming should be.  I don't think Paul tried to copy Ringo precisely but he knew if he overpowered the whole track with drums it wouldn't be a Beatles song. He waits until 2:50 when the bridge comes to go crazy which is probably what Ringo would have done. 

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8 May 2017
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Heath
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Fastbak said
Even if Ringo didn't play on the track, I think he had an influence on how Paul played because he had long before established what drums on a Beatles song should sound like. It should have a steady, unwavering beat with fills only at the right moments while having it's own unique feel. When you hear "Back in the U.S.S.R." or "Dear Prudence " you don't notice that the drumming is any different.They sound like they fit the song which is what Ringo's true genius was. He never imposed a style on the songs. He let the songs dictate what the drumming should be.  I don't think Paul tried to copy Ringo precisely but he knew if he overpowered the whole track with drums it wouldn't be a Beatles song. He waits until 2:50 when the bridge comes to go crazy which is probably what Ringo would have done.   

Speaking of the bridge, I think that Paul goes crazy there and I think that's what John wants to convey at that point musically, along with the keyboard arpeggios.  At about 3:20 the drumming becomes straight forward to the point of being on automatic pilot as George's guitar climbs ever higher, then everything resolves on the last line and John's guitar gently returns to the ground.

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17 May 2017
1.01pm
Fastbak
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Ringo definitely would have gone crazy on the bridge too as that was probably what John wanted but it would have obviously been different. Paul's drumming in the bridge is pretty erratic, slowing down, speeding up hitting the high hat at random moments. Ringo would have the same energy but been more controlled.

Also in the first verse Paul starts drumming one way(tapping 1/16ths on the high hat to keep the beat), but then hits the toms and snare in the second verse. He then switches back to high hat for the chorus. I don't think Ringo would do that. He would have been more consistent and done the first two choruses on snare and THEN switch to the other for the chorus. Then for the "Look around round" Paul plays only the toms. Again I think Ringo would be more consistent. I do want to make it clear, I'm not knocking Paul's drumming. It's what gives the song a lot of it's distinction and I can't imagine the song without it. It's just a "what if".

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18 May 2017
12.27am
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sir walter raleigh
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One of Ringo,s classic snare fills would have fit the song very nicely. 

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18 May 2017
2.05am
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Shamrock Womlbs
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What drum kit did Paul use? Just curious about that.

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18 May 2017
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Dark Overlord
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He probably used Ringo's drum set, which at the time was a 1964 Ludwig Super Black Oyster Pearl, there are reasons to support this:

1. Ringo didn't keep a drum set at his house at the time because he wanted to separate his work from his personal life, so his drums stayed in the studio.

2. Ringo stormed out of the session for Back In The USSR , which means that he didn't take his drums with him.

3. There are pictures of Paul using Ringo's kit.

paul-mccartney-drums-the-beatles-white-album-1968.jpgImage Enlarger

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18 May 2017
11.10am
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Shamrock Womlbs
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Well, since it was recorded at Trident studios i don't think he used Ringo's kit.
Probably he jumped into whatever random drum kit was available at that studio that day.

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18 May 2017
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Dark Overlord
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You're kidding me. If you know the answer, then why the hell did you ask the question, this isn't a trivia game. It'd be like if I said "I was wondering, what bass did George use on Maxwell's Silver Hammer " and when someone says "he used the Fender Bass VI" I say "Actually, he used his Jazz Bass".

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18 May 2017
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Ron Nasty
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I'm with @Dark Overlord on this one, @Shamrock Womlbs, I think it most likely that Ringo's kit was used. I don't think the session being at Trident makes any difference.

Their own equipment would have needed moving across from AR to Trident for the session, and I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't have had Ringo's drums moved across as well, rather than rely on their being a kit at Trident they were comfortable with.

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18 May 2017
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Shamrock Womlbs
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Dark Overlord said
You're kidding me. If you know the answer, then why the hell did you ask the question, this isn't a trivia game. 

1. I can do whatever i want since i'm a grown person and this is a free world and blahblahblah...
2. I was curious so i asked first. Then curiosity kept bumping so i did a bit of a research and made my own theory about it.
3. Then you replied with your stuff.
4. Then i answered back with my own theory.

So i make a question, someone replies then you reply to that reply and so on... so that is how this such thing of forums and internet kinda works...isn't it great??

Ron Nasty said
I think it most likely that Ringo's kit was used. I don't think the session being at Trident makes any difference.

Their own equipment would have needed moving across from AR to Trident for the session, and I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't have had Ringo's drums moved across as well, rather than rely on their being a kit at Trident they were comfortable with.  

Well that might very well have been the case...or not.
I found out this pic, dunno if it's from that session but looks like it's from that time:
paul-drums-68.jpgImage Enlarger


That looks like Trident but the drum kit doesn't look like Ringo's Ludwig... but again, it might be another location. I'm not sure about it.
About not using other studio equipment well they used Trident mics, console and tape... why wouldn't they use their amps and other stuff...? Professional studios use to have good pieces of equipment of their own as well...

Anyway, @Dark Overlord , next time you talk to me just remeber:
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18 May 2017
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Dark Overlord
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I guess I went a little too hard on you there, but I still think you should've said what you thought while asking the question because it seems rude to ask a question and then tell someone their answer is wrong. Here's an example of how to both give a possible explanation and ask a question (by the way, this is a real question I have and not just something I made up).

Do you guys think John uses an acoustic or an electric guitar on this song, I think he used an electric guitar on the backing track and then double tracked it with an acoustic guitar, which seems like something he would do and also, some parts of the song sound like an electric and other parts sound like an acoustic, especially the part towards the end where John strums D D/C D/B D/Bb and if you listen to the isolated vocals from The Beatles Rock Band multitracks, it sounds like he's playing an acoustic guitar in the background, which could also mean he recorded vocals and acoustic guitar simultaneously.

Here's a theorized instrumentation:

John Lennon : Lead and Backing Vocals, Rhythm Guitar (1965 Epiphone ES-230TD Casino, 1964 Gibson J-160E), Tambourine, Backing Vocals, Handclaps

Paul McCartney : Bass Guitar (1964 Rickenbacker 4001S), Drums, Piano, Backing Vocals, Handclaps, Flugelhorn

George Harrison : Lead Guitar (1957 Gibson Les Paul), Backing Vocals, Handclaps

Ringo Starr : Drums?, Backing Vocals?, Handclaps? (According to Beatles Book Monthly, Ringo sings backing vocals and claps his hands, although I am unsure if this is ture, also some people say that this is a composite drum piece which couold mean that Ringo added some drums during the song)

Mal Evans: Tambourine, Backing Vocals, Handclaps

John McCartney: Backing Vocals, Handclaps

Jackie Lomax: Backing Vocals, Handclaps

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19 May 2017
12.20am
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Dark Overlord said
I guess I went a little too hard on you there, but I still think you should've said what you thought while asking the question because it seems rude to ask a question and then tell someone their answer is wrong. Here's an example of how to both give a possible explanation and ask a question (by the way, this is a real question I have and not just something I made up).

Do you guys think John uses an acoustic or an electric guitar on this song, I think he used an electric guitar on the backing track and then double tracked it with an acoustic guitar, which seems like something he would do and also, some parts of the song sound like an electric and other parts sound like an acoustic, especially the part towards the end where John strums D D/C D/B D/Bb and if you listen to the isolated vocals from The Beatles Rock Band multitracks, it sounds like he's playing an acoustic guitar in the background, which could also mean he recorded vocals and acoustic guitar simultaneously.

Here's a theorized instrumentation:

John Lennon : Lead and Backing Vocals, Rhythm Guitar (1965 Epiphone ES-230TD Casino, 1964 Gibson J-160E), Tambourine, Backing Vocals, Handclaps

Paul McCartney : Bass Guitar (1964 Rickenbacker 4001S), Drums, Piano, Backing Vocals, Handclaps, Flugelhorn

George Harrison : Lead Guitar (1957 Gibson Les Paul), Backing Vocals, Handclaps

Ringo Starr : Drums?, Backing Vocals?, Handclaps? (According to Beatles Book Monthly, Ringo sings backing vocals and claps his hands, although I am unsure if this is ture, also some people say that this is a composite drum piece which couold mean that Ringo added some drums during the song)

Mal Evans: Tambourine, Backing Vocals, Handclaps

John McCartney: Backing Vocals, Handclaps

Jackie Lomax: Backing Vocals, Handclaps  

I definitely hear Ringo's voice in the "Round Round Round Round Round" backup vocal.

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19 May 2017
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I mentioned this better on the previous page but pretty much, although most people think Ringo isn't on this song, The Beatles Book Monthly says otherwise and I believe it since it was written in 1968, the same year the album was released whereas sources that say he was entirely absent are all from after The Beatles split, although both claims have their flaws.

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31 July 2018
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I had the same experience as georgiewood (related one page and several years ago!) with this song. It was the definition of a grower. I would not have thought, my first time through the White Album , that it was going to be not only one of my favorites on that album but one of my favorite Beatles songs. It points to something I regret about the changes in the way people experience music as physical media recedes in importance: the tendency many have now to just download the big hit or a few songs. It was always such a pleasure to listen to new albums over and over and see my favorites shift on me, and to find those tracks that were not the flashiest but would sink in. I hope that's never lost for those who come after me. I suppose if people are crazy enough about their favorite artist, they'll want to hear everything, and the idea of releasing sets of 12 or 15 songs at once will never go away. 

We all learn in Introductory Beatles that Ms. Farrow's isolation in her tent in Rishikesh was the inspiration for the song, but it seems to me "about" so much more than that. I subscribe to the sexual-awakening reading, and the name "Prudence" lends itself so well to that: it makes us think of a very cautious, somewhat fearful heroine. I love the way the song builds from its gentle, tentative opening to that ecstatic, wild release, and then calm equilibrium. And if I'm on the right track, the linking of the pleasures and thrills of the adult world with childlike entreaties ("Come out to play") is ingenious. Lennon in his words, and the players in their music, do make the world seem inviting. And it isn't really only about the erotic world, but the whole world of possible experiences. You are part of everything. It's yours. 

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27 February 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed
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I'm a firm believer Paul played drums on this track... but...

I was listening to the center channel of the 5.1 mix from the 2018 mixes, and oh boy... am I confused!

The center track is (almost completely) vocals and handclaps, with some leakage from the vocal headphones, I believe.

And in the section with the awesome drumming, the leakage doesn't correlate with what's heard on the drum track - also, if one looks at the spectrogram for the front channels (especially the right one) (picture below), you can see the hi-hat stops abruptly before the alleged edit... did Paul overdub this entire section? Because I'm convinced someone overdubbed it!

dp.PNGImage Enlarger

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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27 February 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said

And in the section with the awesome drumming, the leakage doesn't correlate with what's heard on the drum track - also, if one looks at the spectrogram for the front channels (especially the right one) (picture below), you can see the hi-hat stops abruptly before the alleged edit... did Paul overdub this entire section? Because I'm convinced someone overdubbed it!

dp.PNGImage Enlarger

  

we know for certain that "someone overdubbed it!"...  have you heard the isolated vocals yet?...  pretty obvious who's sloppy drumming it is bleeding over, while it's just as "obvious" who did the overdub...:

 

 

Paul does a nice job of holding the basic beat but it falls apart at the seams as soon as he starts to get "fancy"...  sounds like a completely different drummer covered up his mess...  that's because it was a different drummer...:-)

27 February 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Yes, that bleed was exactly what I was talking about. Not the original drum track - but an overdub by Paul or Ringo? Sounds more like Ringo but I don't think it's out of Paul's ability. 

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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27 February 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said
Yes, that bleed was exactly what I was talking about. Not the original drum track - but an overdub by Paul or Ringo? Sounds more like Ringo but I don't think it's out of Paul's ability. 

  

I personally believe that it was out of his ability, especially during the summer of 1968...  his drumming did improve once he'd done more of it (practice makes perfect so be careful what you practice...;-) after The Beatles broke up with his solo projects and even playing on other's works...  but he doesn't possess the loose feel that Ringo is known for...  compare the bit that they did keep where he holds a crispy closed high-hat against the discarded portion as he opens up the hats and flounders about...  now compare the overdub to Ringo's smashing of the cymbals while gracing the toms towards the end of 'Helter Skelter ' from the same album...  it's his signature...

 

I urge you to search throughout webland for a video where Ringo himself demonstrates this "feel" to Dave Stewart (of Eurythmics' fame)…  while this session with Dave kinda adds to the confusion where Ringo talks about being a left-handed drummer utilizing a right-handed setup (something that him & Paul both have in common), he also discloses a type of late kinda lagging afterbeat beyond the fours (he uses 'Ticket To Ride ' as an example) which most seasoned drummers fail to replicate due to their own predispositions built in...  'Dear Prudence ' has this "signature" written all over it...  even Sir Paul McCartney , to this day, wouldn't be able to knock this one off...  Paul's best drumming, in my opinion, is on the 'Band On The Run ' album...  you can trace his tightly locked in passages, ala the first 2/3 of 'Dear Prudence ', all over this record but nothing anywhere remotely close to Rings' overdub on 'Dear Prudence '...:-) 

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