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Song structure analysis and terminology
8 April 2015
7.26pm
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ewe2
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Rishikesh
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PeterWeatherby said
Again, we're talking about an ascending line of perfect fourths, not a descending line. So, no, I don't think the Beatles used it prior to Lovely Rita , at least not as far as I've found.

Just from a bassplayer's point of view, I don't hear that as ascending. He's using a walking style of passing notes that descends through each of those chords and for variation sometimes walks up on the Gb and then zips back to the Eb. Could you explain what you mean by ascending if that's a harmonic sense of the usage, because I frequently get confused by it? For me the fun of that bassline is the almost vocal walking around the chords and the Cm triad that manages to not sound minor! And of course the wacky Abm noodling at the end.

I'm like Necko only I'm a bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin and also everyone. Or is everyone me? Now I'm a confused bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin everyone who is definitely not @Joe.  This has been true for 2016 & 2017 Sig-Badge.png but I may have to get more specific in the future.

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8 April 2015
8.07pm
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PeterWeatherby
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ewe2 said

PeterWeatherby said
Again, we're talking about an ascending line of perfect fourths, not a descending line. So, no, I don't think the Beatles used it prior to Lovely Rita , at least not as far as I've found.

Just from a bassplayer's point of view, I don't hear that as ascending. ... Could you explain what you mean by ascending if that's a harmonic sense of the usage, because I frequently get confused by it? 

"Ascending" just in the sense that he's moving up by fourths along the scale -- not in the sense of the literal pitch frequency, necessarily (i.e., an Eb4 as opposed to an Eb3).

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ewe2

Not a bit like Cagney.

8 April 2015
8.14pm
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MOCKSWELL
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 Oh I'm not on about Lovely Rita . It's very 30's sounding. Again, it's kind of ... wrong, to discuss Beatles chord progs as if they are separate in some way.... I mean, Sweet Georgia Brown, and a raft other tunes, are D7/G7/C7/F/. LOTS of tunes...

Right String, Wrong YoYo. A weird Jimmy Campbell song I ran into last night... and oodles others.

Not to forget - when the Beatles emerged, they were in direct competition with the 50s songwriters, heavyweight company songbirds, writing for largish orchestras. Not like The Stones, for ex. who stuck perty much to R n B.

 Really, what's so cool about Fab4 stuff, is the melodies. Sounds obvious but there you go, it's that simple. The same exact progressions can, and do, sound trite in less inspired hands.

 I will babble on ... Last nite I wanna Hold Yer Hand came on, and there is 1-6-2-5 in there somewhere, but sneaky! Not obvious at all, and when you play that sequence it usually stands out like a sore thumb, as half of the fifties popSongs used it. The vocal groups used it to death. It used to be called 'We Want Cantor'.

 For guitarists... if u play this progression straight, 1-6-2-5, be aware that its really actually only two chords, the one and five. You will see a lot of 1-6-4-5 as well, same deal.

Or you can think of it that way. Then, when playing away modally on the root major scale, try and separate it, via arps, into two four note groups. Much more 'melodic' playing should ensue, as you will be on top of the actual changes, without a lot of thinking, which can muddy the waters. (*) 

Paul is a very good bass player. Very good, so he uses lines all over the place, I'm still looking for someone like him to start a band with. * )

8 April 2015
8.49pm
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ewe2
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PeterWeatherby said
"Ascending" just in the sense that he's moving up by fourths along the scale -- not in the sense of the literal pitch frequency, necessarily (i.e., an Eb4 as opposed to an Eb3).

Right, thinking about the scale, not the chord progression, gotcha. This gets me every time.

I'm like Necko only I'm a bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin and also everyone. Or is everyone me? Now I'm a confused bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin everyone who is definitely not @Joe.  This has been true for 2016 & 2017 Sig-Badge.png but I may have to get more specific in the future.

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10 April 2015
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MOCKSWELL
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 Remembering the 50s books we had, way back when. Mickey Baker, who I think Paul mentions, and Mel Bay and Nick Manoloff.

The Manoloff book came with a 'chord wheel', I still have one around somewhere. You turn the wheel and all the relative chords show up, in every key. Sub-dominant etc.

 Did I say Paul was a 'very good' bassplayer? Better clarify that. What I liked, was the old tunes, like a couple of Fats Waller songs they did. The basslines for those had to be adapted somewhat, for rock bass, but he did a very nice job.

Mainly tho, Paul was/is a rock bassist, and that means a few things. First it means you have to be able to play well on one chord. Given an E7 that runs on for a minute or two, McCartney always played great. That's a big part of 'rock' as opposed to rockNroll. Bass players never got much attention, it was primarily a support role. Paul doesn't get many 'solos' in Beatles music but he did a lot of jamming and, to my ears, was better at simple rockin' stuff than more technically advanced players. (End McCartney aggrandizement section)****

 

Watched a Joe Pass instructional vid, he is quite entertaining. AND he explains everything there is to know about playing melodic chord patterns on the guitar. Ted Green's books contain more cool chord changes than my brain can hold. Don Mock is another terrific teacher. We had nothing like this, just books, so stop complaining about how hard it is.) 

12 April 2015
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PeterWeatherby said

MOCKSWELL said
 A fifth up is a fourth down, so the cycle goes both ways. 

But a fifth up is not a fourth up, so no, the cycle really doesn't go both ways. I was talking about a song using a progression of ascending perfect fourths.

MOCKSWELL continued

Essentially it's a descending chromatic line, against a minor triad. Lke Stairway to Heaven Yes? Beatles used it a few times before then.

Again, we're talking about an ascending line of perfect fourths, not a descending line. So, no, I don't think the Beatles used it prior to Lovely Rita , at least not as far as I've found.

What Mockswell meant was, ascending perfect fourths are the same as descending perfect fifths. 

AND the descending circle of fifths applies nicely to flats scales (which Lovely Rita evidently is on) while ascending circle usually concerns sharps. 

Also, naming of scales matters only on paper as it is plainly audible that the harmony goes downward, crisscrossing through the instrumental scale freely in the fashion of "Root Eb - Fifth down to Ab (the same as fourth up to Ab) - fourth up to Db (the same as fifth down to Db) - fifth down to Gb (the same as fourth up to Gb)". On paper it could be noted by upward fourths just as well as downward fifths.

So no Revolution here.

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