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Song structure analysis and terminology
16 November 2014
5.33am
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Musketeer Gripweed
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Will be above mosts heads right now but http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds.....s_on.shtml is a complete analysis on every Beatles song. I think it took Alan Pollack 10 years or something. Might be good down the road for you guys looking to learn. Covers Key, time signature, structure/form, arrangement, melody and harmony. Best free online analysis I've seen.  

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16 November 2014
11.16pm
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MOCKSWELL
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 This is ludicrous. "double bridge with single verse intervening" ... this type of triplet, a favorite of Johns...."

Nope, sorry. Elevating pop tunes to this level is abject disinformation. Let's go after the DC5 tunes next, then, a detailed breakdown of 'Yummy, yummy, yummy." Insulting to real musicians. Not over anyone's head, just nonsense. It ignores all other music, as if Al's ideas about the Beatles tunes is some kind of special deal. He misses all kinds of obvious stuff while going on about things that never came near the minds of the chord-banging 12-bar influenced Beatles.

 Remember Paul saying 'aeolian cadences' etc. - how they knew nothing about it. This is what he was talking about.

If you want to start in on any of a hundred much more musically adept acts, we can publish a huge run of books yammering on about tunes that were knocked out on guitars in twenty minutes and layered with strings by hired guns. There's thousands of examples. They are simple tunes, nothing special at all, other than, in the Beatles case, great performances. Good singers, yah?

 The Beatles never ever wrote a tune any more complex than a twelve-bar blues. Don't argue. The five chord in a blues can and does often verge into related scales above the ability of the boys to understand or utilize. This analysis comes in backwards, assuming the Beatles were some kind of great technical musicians, or composers, despite their repeated insistence that they were average at best, an obvious fact. )

 I'd like to see Paul's take on this, let alone Ringo's.

17 November 2014
12.38am
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Musketeer Gripweed
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MOCKSWELL said
 This is ludicrous. "double bridge with single verse intervening" ... this type of triplet, a favorite of Johns...."

Nope, sorry. Elevating pop tunes to this level is abject disinformation. Let's go after the DC5 tunes next, then, a detailed breakdown of 'Yummy, yummy, yummy." Insulting to real musicians. Not over anyone's head, just nonsense. It ignores all other music, as if Al's ideas about the Beatles tunes is some kind of special deal. He misses all kinds of obvious stuff while going on about things that never came near the minds of the chord-banging 12-bar influenced Beatles.

 Remember Paul saying 'aeolian cadences' etc. - how they knew nothing about it. This is what he was talking about.

If you want to start in on any of a hundred much more musically adept acts, we can publish a huge run of books yammering on about tunes that were knocked out on guitars in twenty minutes and layered with strings by hired guns. There's thousands of examples. They are simple tunes, nothing special at all, other than, in the Beatles case, great performances. Good singers, yah?

 The Beatles never ever wrote a tune any more complex than a twelve-bar blues. Don't argue. The five chord in a blues can and does often verge into related scales above the ability of the boys to understand or utilize. This analysis comes in backwards, assuming the Beatles were some kind of great technical musicians, or composers, despite their repeated insistence that they were average at best, an obvious fact. )

 I'd like to see Paul's take on this, let alone Ringo's.

RELAX. I didn't say it was perfect said it was a good free online source. There is still usefull information what your knocking is really based off your personal opinion...I haven't looked through it all, but either have you, so you can't really discredit a whole research project of one glimpse.....Also anyone can argue they wrote complex tunes because complexity really comes down to that persons personal opinion...I never heard The Beatles call themselves average song-writers or composers either...They knew they weren't the most polished technically but they took there song-writing as a point of pride...Its a matter of opinion really but their some of the most respected song-writers, in mine and other musicians I've collaborate with. 

Edit: Also not sure what song or section you read but above the analysis is  the basic information about the song. So this appears at the top of ever song. It is a centralized source to find out information about the song like below if you don't agree with the in depth analysis.

Key: A Major
Meter: 4/4
Form: Intro | Verse | Verse | Bridge | Verse | Bridge |
| Verse | Outro (fade-out)
CD: "Help !", Track 7 (Parlophone CDP7 46439-2)
Recorded: 15th February 1965, Abbey Road 2
UK-release: 9th April 1965 (A Single / "Yes It Is ")
US-release: 19th April 1965 (A Single / "Yes It Is ")

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17 November 2014
1.07am
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Musketeer Gripweed
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This is also Alan Pollack's educational information. Pollack holds a B.A. in Music from Brooklyn College and both an M.A. and PhD from the University of Pennsylvania in Music Theory and Composition. He was an instructor of music theory and composition at Yale University from 1975–1977. I know that he holds the degrees but lacks the personal experience of a musician but you still can't discredit everything he has done because of that. 

I am personally self taught with a a background in theory but don't hold any degree in music. Have taken courses on composition, theory and audio engineering. I just use the site as a reference point for basic information because it is a centralized source. I thought if some of the other posters on this topic wanted to see if they were breaking down the structure correctly they could use site as a reference. Also just thought since it is a centralized source on many of the topics discussed in this thread that others who were interested in learning might enjoy checking it out....

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19 November 2014
6.29am
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MOCKSWELL
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 I can in fact discount any and all 'experts' on 'pop music' and I am very relaxed indeed. I do have an axe in my hand, however. )

LIsting the a/b/a ... what is that, a simplified notation for someone who can't look at actual chord charts? 4/4 - wow! The other option is 3, right?

 I'm just too interested in my breakdown of later 1910 Fruitgum compositions to bovver reading these posts. After that,  I thought I might start dissecting some of the mid-period 13th Floor Elevators tunes, just the easy ones, don't wanna get too deep.

 Then. for dessert, the first 30 seconds of the Rite of Spring.... not as impressive as Sgt. Peckers Bonyhead Brainfarts, of course....

Rubbiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiish!

The Rutles knocked off every 'style'of da Beatles, probably inna few days. I have never run into a Beatles tune I couldn't learn and explain in ten min. That was in the seventies. ANY serious analysis of Beatle's music is bogus and pompous off the top.

How many times did they tell you this? Paul, John.... yet the myth tries to continue, via analysis of their guitar-based poptones. Unbelievable.

Ghod. What's next - Rolling Stones?

Degrees in music are no excuse for this sort of thing, drop it and go after some real adult music if you want to sound knowledgeable.

There's a book of classical guitar for Beatles sitting here. It's fairly challenging to get the melody and harmony together. Read that, or look at the funny little golfclubs on the lines and you might learn something. What you trying to 'learn' I cannot figure out. Learn. Stuff about Beatles music. Well, Okay.....

I have no sympathy or mercy and will jump up and down on this sort of thing until it is dead. An analysis of one of the best punkrock bands of 1961.

Vastly insulting to legions of superior musicians who need attention, and have actually written some stuff worth looking at.

 

Thing is - some people seem to believe the crap you hear- Lennon/McCartney are the greatest songwriters etc. etc.  Once Schubert is mentioned, then you know you are hearing audio crapola. Not even close, two leagues below any music like Schubert, at least.  

 

Heh. Heh. This went on - exactly the same - forty years ago. So don't get too chuffed off. Just go practice yer Harmfulmonic scale for A, so that if u play, say, She's So Heavy you can think about slipping it in against the E7 there... but you won't be ble to, cos Beatles music doesn't work that way. It's perfect and GodLike and worth getting on your knees and crawling across the desert for, and __-***** (Mockswell carried off by ambulance attendants) *

19 November 2014
10.54pm
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IveJustSeenAFaceo
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…what

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20 November 2014
12.27am
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georgiewood
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Oh dear. a-hard-days-night-ringo-4

I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did'.
Kurt Vonnegut, Timequake, 1997

20 November 2014
12.42am
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meanmistermustard
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Howdie.

Whilst folk are entitled to disagree and have differences of opinion (such a thing can make a healthy forum) it is important that people are respectful in how they post, reply and interact with others. If you cant do so in such a manner then don't reply.

@MOCKSWELL, if you think its pointless discussing serious analysis of the Beatles music then simply don't post in a thread on the topic where folk want to discuss such matters.

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21 November 2014
8.13pm
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MOCKSWELL
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No. I actually have to deal with this stuff, constantly. You have no idea how many glassy-eyed 40+ year-olds have showed up, plugged in, and started pounding out Beatles tunes, ignoring all, as if by the simple hacking at at Fab4 tune, they are somehow in their league, or something. I can't figure these people out.

 Having been around the lads...and many others like them... and knowing, yep, knowing how the whole thing went down... can't let this go by - even though this is just chat on the endless internet, it is still annoying to wander in here and find the same attitude as I have to suffer through publically. (Suffer, suffer.)

 The Beatles tried very hard to expose the sham, the myth, but it has been denied and covered up. They were average musicians. They were

assisted, big-time, by better musicians. Okay? The proof is there, though you can forget it coming out openly.

 Went to a yard party t'other night. Some guys got up and guess what - Beatles. Saw her Standing, Ticket 2 Ride, etc.

Lousy, crappy - compared to the record. No problem there.... but, there were actual musicians present, and they were ignored.

This is common behavior, and I have had more than enough of it. The dream is over, you can't extend Beatles into adult music-world.

I am sorely tempted to just start putting stuff up online, real, trouble-making factual stuff... so this kind of conversation is mild indeed.

Mild. Now... long-overdue analysis of 'Mr. Henry's Lollipop Shop' 1969, by the Tricycle.

It is 4/4. It starts with 'Ba-dat-dah' - 4x... this recurs, but, sometimes it seems as if they are singing 'Dat-dat-dah' ... is this signifigant? Maybe.

What is the Lollipop shop? -...is it a real Lollipop Shop, or a metaphor for something deeper?

'Do what you want, don't have to stop." Clearly - this is Crowley. (Do what you wanta do)

So. A Magik Lollipop shop... Marshmallow Floss... Gingerbread dough.... The multi-tracked vox are ... multi-tracked... because it sounds better probably...

There are triplets galore. The reverb setting on the Fender amp is between 5-6, approximately. This, combined with the room echo, creates a trippy sound that is as 'Tricycle' as it gets.

"you'll be walking on the ceiling.'  Is this a reference to Spider-Man?

Then - an actual bar of two shows up! The organ plays a little circus theme, doo-dah, doo-dah... unusual, vaguely reminiscent of calliopes and country music.

The Tricycle were not known for odd time signatures, which six isn't , but nevermind it sounds impressive anyway.

 

Just kidding, but watch it, or I will whip out Mockswell's Silly Hammer and squish some Beeetles.

21 November 2014
8.30pm
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meanmistermustard
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@MOCKSWELL, you dont have to suffer such a conversation. Its your decision to come on, read the thread and then reply. You don't rate the Beatles as musicians and believe other better musicians are out there, thats fine and many others will agree, but i will remind you of one of the rules of the forum:

Don't be a troll. If you think The Beatles suck, please don't bother letting us know.

@Joe

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21 November 2014
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@MOCKSWELL I wonder if your name - mocks well - says everything about your reasons for joining this forum. You certainly show little respect for those who do believe that the Beatles are worthy of serious discussion musically, even though this forum asks us to respect different opinions among its few rules.

You're perfectly entitled to believe that The Beatles had little or no musical merit (though why you would join a Beatles forum is beyond me), but why join in conversations just to mock those who believe differently to you?

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21 November 2014
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@MOCKSWELL Hi. Just out of interest, beyond the obvious trolling, what do you hope to get out of this forum? You don't seem to like The Beatles much, and you're disdainful towards those who enjoy discussing them.

Perhaps you should spend your days enjoying yourself rather than getting wound up over things you view as juvenile.

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22 November 2014
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MOCKSWELL
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 ChoRtL*** This has no biz in a 'song' discussion but here goes anyway.

I've heard of Trolling, but dunno wotsit?

Beatles were very good friends here, for real, along with everybody else who has ever been 'in'. It's like being on a chaingang, you become very close, with a common enemy.  Some people may assume that The Beatles were something special, with their own special problems, and secrets, but of course the lads themselves were as you see them. There are much larger issues that override any pop singers, as you may well imagine.

 Do I like the Beatles?  No, I love 'em. They are the only guys who dared, yes, dared to take a shot at the hated 'illuminati' (Henceforth abbreviated to 'Ill')

 Future generations will love them even more, once they see what they have done. They actually managed to get the truth out, hidden in their music.

Spectacular! Beautiful. But of corset, until all relevant parties are deceased... the same repression will continue, and more people may well be gunned down, stabbed, poisoned - like has already happened a bunch of times. Then ,their children take over, and the slavery goes on. That's the plan. 

 The illuminutbars are simply rich people, with no talent or work ethic - who own slaves. Me, Beatles, anyone. This is olde world stuff and I wanta end it.

For Beatles fans... welllllllllllll, they were just the best guys, forget the music for a minute, they put the truth out there when no-one else could. Certain people are not amused.

 The 'secrets' are there, in the tunes. Who I am, for example, and who the parents were, and just the workings of the whole machine. Scary.

Backwards. I don't like it at all, it makes me queezy, but there 'tis.

This mess has been going on, happening to me, for over fifty years, no respite. Unpaid, for doing work that the ILL. leach mils. from. 

To this day. No matter how loud I scream. So, forget me, dig into the Fab4 and find for yerself what and who was there. Break that myth and make John's ghost happy. 

 I have no money, no car, no proper instruments, nuthin, after 50 years of it, and this is how the people who do the actual work are treated. It's slavery, it's evil. 

 

 The songs I know inside-out, boy I just love a lot of them. Up until the group became too popular and they started writing fluff for grannies and babies, and even that they were good at. Them, and the un-named others...

 Sorry about dropping reality into the dreamworld internet, but where else is there? I'm in Canada, but may as well be Treblinka. This is the only outlet.

I'm still hoping to have a decent band together this year, there will be some Beatles tunes, and they will be done up proper or not at all. Best pop group ever.

22 November 2014
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MOCKSWELL said I have no money, no car, no proper instruments, nuthin, after 50 years of it, and this is how the people who do the actual work are treated. It's slavery, it's evil. 

Thanks for sharing that. It says, and explains, and confirms, a lot. I hope things get better for you. Oudis.

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

23 November 2014
10.49pm
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Musketeer Gripweed
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Well that escalated quickly. Didn't think a link would set someone off like that sorry! Also the whole situation is based of peoples personal tastes which is uncontrollable and counter productive to argue over. 

Did anyone check out the link? Its the most in depth free online source I've found. If anyone else knows any other websites or books with musical analysis please share. Would love to know how they decided to use a chord out of key or why in certain situations they chose alternative chords instead of the standard chord for that key and in other songs they didn't. I guess a good example is the Gm  at the "caressing me" part in Across The Universe .  I believe many of their choices had to do with wanting to create a certain mood or feeling musically with the song. 

23 November 2014
11.12pm
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meanmistermustard
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There is nothing wrong with Allan Pollock and his analysis, its been posted on here before by a few folk, so nothing to apologise for @Musketeer Gripweed. Lets all move on and forget about what happened.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

23 November 2014
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Hello again everybody,

This thread was hopelessly derailed, and in a bad way, in circumstances that all of us who have been reading the posts know very well. Some of the posts were difficult to read because of the difficult explanations they contained; in many cases they were unpleasant to read because of their emotional tone.  So hopelessly derailed it was that I decided not to post anything else any more, and the moderators had to intervene (thank you guys). I invite all of you to go back to the original idea: a simple analysis, with the right terminology, of The Beatles’ oeuvre. Choose songs, study them, and see what you can contribute to the thread. Remember: most of us aren’t professional musicians, and I dare say many aren’t musicians at all. Follow the “Keep It Simple” rule. I thank you all in advance.

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Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

24 November 2014
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I've been keeping quiet on this one for a while since things started getting a little crazy.  I feel partly responsible for the way this thing turned out, but I'm hoping that my original posts were helpful?  I would like to keep trying to explain/teach some of these concepts if anyone still wants my help or opinion.

For what it's worth, I loved reading Alan Pollack's 'Notes On' series even way back when it was on rec.music.beatles.  It helped me to think more about what was going on not only in Beatle music, but other music as well.

@Musketeer Gripweed , for some books of musical analysis, Walter Everett's Beatles as Musicians books are great for that. Like an expanded, even more in-depth and scholarly version of the Pollack series.

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24 November 2014
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Musketeer Gripweed (kezron9) said
Will be above mosts heads right now but http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds.....s_on.shtml is a complete analysis on every Beatles song. I think it took Alan Pollack 10 years or something. Might be good down the road for you guys looking to learn. Covers Key, time signature, structure/form, arrangement, melody and harmony. Best free online analysis I've seen.  

Thank you for the link you posted, @Musketeer Gripweed; the atmosphere in this thread was so dense that I decided not to post anything here anymore, but now that the problem has been solved I’m writing to you to say I appreciate it. My life has been rather hectic the past few weeks, but I will check the link pretty soon and then let you know. As ever, Oudis.

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Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

24 November 2014
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Joe
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stay-on-topicstay-on-topicstay-on-topic

Hi all.

Over the weekend one of the Fab Forum's periodic blow-ups occurred, when things veered wildly off topic and got heated.

This was partly my fault, because I engaged and accused when I should have steered things back on track. You live and learn, right?

Some messages got put into moderation, one thing was deleted, but everything else has since been published. However, I would ask you all to keep this thread on-track and relevant, and not respond to nonsense. This forum works really well when we're all discussing things sanely and rationally, but when a discussion on song structure turns to talk of the illuminati you know you're seriously in the wrong place.

So let's work together and keep things on course. Thanks for reading and for making this place such a great collective.

stay-on-topicstay-on-topicstay-on-topic

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