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Odd time signatures
6 November 2024
12.22pm
think for myself
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The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it's like the "just let me hear some of that--" line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

6 November 2024
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Sea Belt
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think for myself said
The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it's like the "just let me hear some of that--" line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

  

6/8 can overlap with 4/4, but it's kind of hard to explain how.

As for various Beatles songs where they put in a measure here or there in some exotic time -- as a songwriter (and as a person) I'm kind of OCD, and I feel like, if one of my lyric lines seems to need to be in 5/4, I feel like maybe I should make the whole song 5/4 -- or change that line to 4/4.  I try to avoid mixing up different time signatures in the same song -- unless it seems inspired to do so.

Now today I find, you have changed your mind

7 November 2024
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Shamrock Womlbs
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think for myself said
The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it's like the "just let me hear some of that--" line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

  

Dig A Pony sounds in plain and simple 3/4 to me. Even the intro, i do not find any 4/4 measure there mccartney-shrug_01_gif

"I Need You by George Harrison"

7 November 2024
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think for myself
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Shamrock Womlbs said

think for myself said

The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it's like the "just let me hear some of that--" line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

  

Dig A Pony sounds in plain and simple 3/4 to me. Even the intro, i do not find any 4/4 measure there mccartney-shrug_01_gif

  

So I did some research and found that you can count the intro of Dig A Pony as 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2 which are four bars of 6/8, but you can actually interpret this as two bars of regular 4/4 but with triplets, though Ringo's drumming on the intro is in regular 3/4, 1-2-3, 1-2-3. the verses are indeed just regular 3/4.

7 November 2024
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think for myself said

So I did some research and found that you can count the intro of Dig A Pony as 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2 which are four bars of 6/8, but you can actually interpret this as two bars of regular 4/4 but with triplets, though Ringo's drumming on the intro is in regular 3/4, 1-2-3, 1-2-3. the verses are indeed just regular 3/4.

But... why would you do that? the strong beat is the first one of every group of three 1-2-3, 1-2-3... It goes like this:

https://www.noteflight.com/mus.....dig-a-pony

Even they count 1-2-3 before start playing

  

"I Need You by George Harrison"

8 November 2024
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Shamrock Womlbs said

think for myself said

So I did some research and found that you can count the intro of Dig A Pony as 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2 which are four bars of 6/8, but you can actually interpret this as two bars of regular 4/4 but with triplets, though Ringo's drumming on the intro is in regular 3/4, 1-2-3, 1-2-3. the verses are indeed just regular 3/4.

But... why would you do that? the strong beat is the first one of every group of three 1-2-3, 1-2-3... It goes like this:

https://www.noteflight.com/mus.....dig-a-pony

Even they count 1-2-3 before start playing

  

  

Yeah, you're right on that.

8 November 2024
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Von Bontee
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Sea Belt said

Probably the most famous pop example of 3/4 time on top of 4/4:
 

  

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Bill Withers' "Ain't No Sunshine", great song! You're talking about the "I know I know I know I know etc..." ×17 bit, no doubt...

And it just occurred to me now that John L does something very similar in the chorus of "John Sinclair", using three beats to chant a two-syllable phrase ("Got-ta got-ta" in place of "I Know") and repeating that many, many times over a long stretch, 16 bars or whatever. I'd say there was a very good chance that soul-music superfan John was consciously thinking of "Ain't No Sunshine" while recording that "Sometime in NYC" album track; it would have been mere months after Withers' hit took the world by storm.

Paul: Yeah well… first of all, we’re bringing out a ‘Stamp Out Detroit’ campaign.

         

9 November 2024
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Von Bontee said

Sea Belt said

Probably the most famous pop example of 3/4 time on top of 4/4:
 

  

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Bill Withers' "Ain't No Sunshine", great song! You're talking about the "I know I know I know I know etc..." ×17 bit, no doubt...

And it just occurred to me now that John L does something very similar in the chorus of "John Sinclair", using three beats to chant a two-syllable phrase ("Got-ta got-ta" in place of "I Know") and repeating that many, many times over a long stretch, 16 bars or whatever. I'd say there was a very good chance that soul-music superfan John was consciously thinking of "Ain't No Sunshine" while recording that "Sometime in NYC" album track; it would have been mere months after Withers' hit took the world by storm.

  

Wow, nice example. I had never heard this song before today (which tells you something about my fanship of Lennon's solo years).  I still prefer Withers' 3/4 overlay because it's subtler yet in a way has more impact because of the stately slow tempo.

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Now today I find, you have changed your mind

14 November 2024
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Oh, Withers' song is much better than John's bit of propaganda, no doubt - propaganda which ended up being entirely meaningless, since Sinclair was ultimately released upon appeal, before the song was even released!

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GEORGE: In fact, The Detroit Sound. JOHN: In fact, yes. GEORGE: In fact, yeah. Tamla-Motown artists are our favorites. The Miracles. JOHN: We like Marvin Gaye. GEORGE: The Impressions PAUL & GEORGE: Mary Wells. GEORGE: The Exciters. RINGO: Chuck Jackson. JOHN: To name but eighty. 

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5 December 2024
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Sea Belt
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Another example of 3/4 on top of 4/4 -- Gregg Rolie's superb organ solo on Evil Ways.

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx4.....FjeeKeONHQ

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6 December 2024
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A beatley example of 4/4 over 3/4 is on the "when I hold you..."  section in Happiness Is A Warm Gun  

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6 December 2024
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JasonParis
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think for myself said

But... why would you do that? the strong beat is the first one of every group of three 1-2-3, 1-2-3...

Even they count 1-2-3 before start playing

The answer is, well, complicated.   

It boils down to the function of 6/8 in music.   For example, why do composers use 6/8 and not 3/4?   Aren't they exactly the same?

No, they're not.

3/4 is 'waltz time'... think OOM-pah-pah, OOM-pah-pah... ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three.   Each beat has the duration of a quarter-note, as indicated by the /4.   And, as there are three quarter-notes to each bar, the time signature is 3/4.

6/8, on the other hand, is really 2/4 with a faster feeling.   Consider a slow 2/4 beat:  ONE - TWO, ONE - TWO.   Again, each beat has the duration of the quarter-note.   Now, break the ONE into equal thirds, and do the same to the TWO.   You've now got ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three, which is 6/8.   But do you see that the 2/4 is still "inside" the 6/8?   

See how 6/8 feels much faster than 2/4?   That's because the basic meter has just been cut into thirds:  from quarter-notes to eighth-triplet-notes.

If you're confused, here's a helpful analogy.   Consider a clock face, with an hour-hand and seconds-hand.   In the space of one hour, the hour-hand goes round once, but the seconds-hand goes round 60 times.    Why?   Because the seconds-hand is counting smaller quantities of time, and therefore moves faster than the hour-hand.

So it is with 6/8:  it's counting smaller quantities of time (i.e. eighth-triplet-notes), so it feels faster than 2/4 (which is counting quarter-notes). 

Now, let's bring all this back to 'Dig A Pony ', before one of us has a cerebral haemorrhage... 

I propose that the song's time signatures, from a musicologist's perspective, actually run as follows:

INTRO:  3/8 x 8 bars.   (A fast OOM-pah-pah.)

VERSE:  4/4 x 1 bar.   2/4 x 1 bar.  1/4 x 1 bar.   2/4 x 1 bar.   4/4 x 1 bar.

With the beats falling like this:

1           2           3          4              1            2                          1                                         1         2            1                                       2                  3              4

I - a-hi hi  a-hi hi              dig a  po-ony     Well you can celebrate anything you want       yes,  you can celebrate any-thing you want.       Oh now.

When considered this way, the switch from the eighth-note-based meter in the Intro to the quarter-note-based meter in the Verse has the effect of slowing the feel right down, while maintaining the same tempo.  (Of course, the */4 bars have a triplet feel, which maintains the rhythmic relationship with the Intro.)

Obviously The Beatles weren't thinking about this nonsense when writing/performing the song... they weren't musicologists.   Which, in a sense, is a pity, because if Ringo, as the laying-down-the-beat dude in the band, had thought this way, he would've struck his bass drum, not snare, on the eighth beat of every verse ("want"/"go"/"are"/"no"/"see"/"row"), which better fits the 'Bass Drum on 1 and 3 / Snare on 2 and 4' pattern.   

(Incidentally, he makes this same 'error' in 'Happiness Is A Warm Gun ', in the "I need a fix" section.   "Down to the bits" should start with a bass drum note, not snare.)

Told you it was complicated... ahdn_john_08_gif

Explaining how 'Yer Blues ' and 'I Me Mine ' (two songs that share 'Dig A Pony 's triplet feel) speed up/slow down through time-signature changes is even more complicated! They go from 4/4 to 4/8 then back to 4/4... while retaining the triplet feel the whole time!  paul-mccartney-facepalm_gif

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22 March 2025
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I appreciate Jason's detailed post, even if i can't understand a lot of it!

Now today I find, you have changed your mind

22 March 2025
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Shamrock Womlbs said
A beatley example of 4/4 over 3/4 is on the "when I hold you..."  section in Happiness Is A Warm Gun  

  

That is brilliant. I never noticed that. 

 

Unrelated to the Beatles, heres my favorite time feel change. Happens during the verse of this song (start at 2:35)

Technically it doesnt change time signatures, the drums switchfrom a straight 4/4 to a heavy swing at a different tempo, and then back. So cool. 

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Shamrock Womlbs

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22 March 2025
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@JasonParis I think youre overcomplicating the verse. Listen to Ringo's accents, the happen on the 1 and 4 of a 6/8 measure. I don't think there are time signature changes every measure, just tasteful fills from George that begin on off beats and confuse the time feel, but Ringo never shifts during the verse, and I'll take cues from him about the time signature before anyone else

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

3 April 2025
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@sir walter raleigh just looked at your signature. Never knew you were into the beach boys!a-hard-days-night-john-6 Whats your favorite album?a-hard-days-night-ringo-7 Mines is SMiLE.ahdn_george_08

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¨Why would i retire? Sit at home and watch TV? No thanks Id rather be out playing.¨

4 April 2025
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I'll give you a top 5. I love the post SMiLE era but I take Brian in his prime over anything. 

Pet Sounds

Today!

SMiLE

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"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

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