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Paul "rewrites history?"
1 August 2015
7.32am
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Ron Nasty
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@O Boogie said

Ron Nasty said
That did, sort of, happen, JPM-Fangirl. John and Paul in the early days wrote all their lyrics in exercise books. They were in Paul's possession, until his housekeeper threw them out in around 1967 thinking they were rubbish (not the lyrics, she just thought they'd been left out to be thrown away). And, with that, many of their earliest songs were lost forever. Just the few they could remember survive.

I read it somewhere that it was actually Jane Asher that threw them away thinking it was nothing important, while cleaning their house. 

EDIT: I read it right here, on this website

http://www.beatlesbible.com/pe.....e-asher/2/

As with many things Beatles there are conflicting accounts. What is in little doubt, since Paul has never turned around and said, "That's rubbish! I still have them!" is that the exercise book(s) was accidentally thrown away.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

1 August 2015
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I like the Jane Asher one better. Makes for a better story.

 

For tomorrow may rain, so I'll follow the Sun

6 August 2015
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I think each of the Beatles tended to tell the version of events they wanted to tell, in the way they wanted to tell it, not just Paul.

As for Philip Norman, of all people, accusing Paul of re-writing history ... Pot, meet kettle. How many factual inaccuracies were there in Shout! that were the result of Norman's unabashed pro-John and anti-Paul and anti-George bias? Off the top of my head ...

The "air raid" the night John was born.

Paul wanted to boot Sutcliff out of the band to claim the position of bass guitar for himself -- something George, Paul and Ringo all denied, but Norman kept it in later editions ...

John came up with the idea for the Butcher cover (wrong, it was the photographer).

John was the driving force behind Sgt. Pepper 's.

Ivan Vaughn "hesitated to introduce Paul to John" because Ivan only introduced "great guys" to John, and Paul didn't qualify ... which is the complete opposite of what Ivan actually says in The Beatles: The Authorized Biography.

Glass houses and stones, Mr. Norman.

      

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6 August 2015
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Don't hold back, pickles.  Let it rip!

“Send John out first; he’s the one they want.”

~ someone said it, dammit.

Memphis, 1966

6 August 2015
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I get the impression that Paul wants the Beatles remembered in the best possible light. About reversing the songwriting credits, I believe I read something about Paul saying that when the credits are shown on electronic devices, because of the small display it stops displaying at Lennon's name and doesn't show Paul's name. Something like that.

6 August 2015
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sigh butterfly
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@CrossingAbbeyRoad, I read that too. Actually I've started noticing several sites online that have the names reversed such as http://www.azlyrics.com/b/beatles.html (Credits listed as Writer(s): Paul Mccartney, John Lennon ). Btw-if you want to keep track of activities at your namesake here is a link to a 24 hour cam. Lots of folks recreate the album cover crossing at all times of the day and night. http://www.abbeyroad.com/crossing

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6 August 2015
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Slight derail on the topic of the zebra crossing.

If you haven't seen the video of Joe, our fearless leader, crossing Abbey Road and the posts leading up to and following the video, treat yourself to this fun forum moment http://www.beatlesbible.com/fo.....4/#p113853 (the conversation starts on the page prior to the page where the video is).

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7 August 2015
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The problem with Paul McCartney was that he was so incredibly talented that he doesn't come across as human, so to speak. Take his voice, for example. I cannot sing many of his songs because he goes too high or too low for my range, which got very frustrating. John Lennon , however, had the same vocal range as I have, so I can handle any of his songs (except the part in Happiness Is A Warm Gun ). 

Another thing that is not helping Paul's image is the year of 1967. It started with John writing Strawberry Fields Forever , and Paul tried to one-up him, but he only managed to write Penny Lane . I understand anyone who thinks it is a great song, certainly it has a way of moving from happy go lucky to solitary and back again, but it is not nearly as personal or powerful as SFF. The next thing to happen in 67 was Sgt. Pepper . Paul McCartney was the leader of the band, it is undeniable. The only problem is that the two best songs on the album are usually seen as John Lennon songs. Sadly, Paul's best moment on the album, IMHO, was his vocal on the opening track. His section on A Day In The Life would not have been a great song if it had to stand on its own. It is the hype that surrounds it in that the listener knows something incredible is about to happen. For LSD, John Lennon sings the lead vocals, so everyone assumes he wrote the entire song, no matter what Paul claimed in the '80s. Moving onto MMT, Paul has an idea for a single in All Together Now , but John has All You Need Is Love , and it gets played as a "live" performance on TV, as well as taking the A side of the single. Paul finally gets his chance for an A side to show his abilities as a songwriter to the public. This time, he writes a catchy ballad called Hello, Goodbye . Sadly, John has I Am The Walrus , and, even though Paul wins the battle for the A side, the rest of the band totally sabotaged him in the recording of the promotional film. Clearly, Paul was the only one who enjoyed himself on the video, and the viewer is bound to think, "Paul must have forced this one on the band". On the other hand, I Am The Walrus got an awesome promotional clip, and the viewer is back to thinking he is watching the happy Beatles performing, once again, a John Lennon song. 

Well, I could go through everything that happened in 68 and 69, but I am sure you already know the story: John writes deep, personal songs that connect to the listener while Paul just can't get away from silly pop songs. The one time Paul got it right was Hey Jude . I used to think Oh! Darling was a legitimate, heart felt love song. I thought that until I found out it took him a week to get his vocal sound just right. It was a dead giveaway: it's just a sound. Compare it to Don't Let Me Down . IMO, I can hear the pain and weight in John's voice, and it comes through in every version of it I've heard: the single, the rooftop, and several rehearsals. He didn't have to get his voice "just right" because he truly meant it. 

Anyway, I should stop. I honestly wish I didn't know everything I just typed, because then I would love both John and Paul as equals. If you disagree with me, I respect your opinion. The fact is that a lot of people see John Lennon as greater than Paul McCartney , so they are going to have a hard time with him making claims that seem out of line. Now that I think of it, this whole comment could be moved to a more appropriate thread, because I think it would help McCartney fans understand where many John Lennon fans come from. 

Peace. 

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7 August 2015
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Yes, I disagree with you, @Sheepdog. I think you've got a very skewed view of both John's and Paul's songs and abilities. You're entitled to your opinion, but I certainly do not agree.

 

p.s. I can sing all of Paul's songs just fine; does that make me less human too?

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Sheepdog said
The problem with Paul McCartney was that he was so incredibly talented that he doesn't come across as human, so to speak. Take his voice, for example. I cannot sing many of his songs because he goes too high or too low for my range, which got very frustrating. John Lennon , however, had the same vocal range as I have, so I can handle any of his songs (except the part in Happiness Is A Warm Gun ). 

Another thing that is not helping Paul's image is the year of 1967. It started with John writing Strawberry Fields Forever , and Paul tried to one-up him, but he only managed to write Penny Lane . I understand anyone who thinks it is a great song, certainly it has a way of moving from happy go lucky to solitary and back again, but it is not nearly as personal or powerful as SFF. The next thing to happen in 67 was Sgt. Pepper . Paul McCartney was the leader of the band, it is undeniable. The only problem is that the two best songs on the album are usually seen as John Lennon songs. Sadly, Paul's best moment on the album, IMHO, was his vocal on the opening track. His section on A Day In The Life would not have been a great song if it had to stand on its own. It is the hype that surrounds it in that the listener knows something incredible is about to happen. For LSD, John Lennon sings the lead vocals, so everyone assumes he wrote the entire song, no matter what Paul claimed in the '80s. Moving onto MMT, Paul has an idea for a single in All Together Now , but John has All You Need Is Love , and it gets played as a "live" performance on TV, as well as taking the A side of the single. Paul finally gets his chance for an A side to show his abilities as a songwriter to the public. This time, he writes a catchy ballad called Hello, Goodbye . Sadly, John has I Am The Walrus , and, even though Paul wins the battle for the A side, the rest of the band totally sabotaged him in the recording of the promotional film. Clearly, Paul was the only one who enjoyed himself on the video, and the viewer is bound to think, "Paul must have forced this one on the band". On the other hand, I Am The Walrus got an awesome promotional clip, and the viewer is back to thinking he is watching the happy Beatles performing, once again, a John Lennon song. 

Well, I could go through everything that happened in 68 and 69, but I am sure you already know the story: John writes deep, personal songs that connect to the listener while Paul just can't get away from silly pop songs. The one time Paul got it right was Hey Jude . I used to think Oh! Darling was a legitimate, heart felt love song. I thought that until I found out it took him a week to get his vocal sound just right. It was a dead giveaway: it's just a sound. Compare it to Don't Let Me Down . IMO, I can hear the pain and weight in John's voice, and it comes through in every version of it I've heard: the single, the rooftop, and several rehearsals. He didn't have to get his voice "just right" because he truly meant it. 

Anyway, I should stop. I honestly wish I didn't know everything I just typed, because then I would love both John and Paul as equals. If you disagree with me, I respect your opinion. The fact is that a lot of people see John Lennon as greater than Paul McCartney , so they are going to have a hard time with him making claims that seem out of line. Now that I think of it, this whole comment could be moved to a more appropriate thread, because I think it would help McCartney fans understand where many John Lennon fans come from. 

Peace. 

I don't agree with all of this but you make some good points fellow Bulldogger.

I think Paul feels John gets a tiny bit more credit than he deserves for some of their collaborations and Paul himself a little less than he warrants.

Over my time on this board I've come to appreciate Paul, George and Ringo more.......and even though I'm a John man thru and thru.....My respect for John has diminished somewhat......... I think that puts me closer to what was the reality.

OK Cricket's on gotta go.

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7 August 2015
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It's actually getting to the stage now where it's reaching the other extreme and retrospectively paul is almost getting too much credit for the beatles success.John lennon's songwriting always was more based in emotional truth than paul's work and that is a major part of the groups appeal. Just as much as the studio innovations or the musicianship.

However it's not true to say that pauls contribution to "A Day In The Life " was lesser. The arrangement and structure of the song is very much mccartney. "Penny Lane " is in no way inferior to "strawberry fields" either. They are just 2 sides of the same coin.

The real problem that john faced in the beatles was not a superior songwriter in mccartney but the fact that john lost interest very quickly. He relinquished control of the group to his partner around 66 while he explored psychedelics and never really got it back. Hence why he nearly always acquiesced to paul up until he met yoko.

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7 August 2015
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castironshore said
"Penny Lane " is in no way inferior to "strawberry fields" either. They are just 2 sides of the same coin.

Hmmmm...

Sounds like a great topic for a separate discussion.

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, let it roll for all its worth. And all the children boogie.

7 August 2015
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JPM-Fangirl said
Yes, I disagree with you, Sheepdog. I think you've got a very skewed view of both John's and Paul's songs and abilities. You're entitled to your opinion, but I certainly do not agree.

 

p.s. I can sing all of Paul's songs just fine; does that make me less human too?

There's this little thing called different types of voicesa-hard-days-night-john-6

Of course, no one's denying that Paul has incredible vocal versatility: whereas most singers specialise in a particular style-- either screaming or crooning, for instance-- Paul does both, with equal proficiency. So I can sort of see where Sheepdog is coming from, on that point at least-- it's pretty mind-blowing to listen to Why Don't We Do It In The Road and then I Will right after and realise those are sung by the same guy. 

But I agree with JPM-Fangirl, on disagreeing with Sheepdog. If that makes sense. apple01 & heart 

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7 August 2015
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Sheepdog said
The problem with Paul McCartney was that he was so incredibly talented that he doesn't come across as human, so to speak. Take his voice, for example. I cannot sing many of his songs because he goes too high or too low for my range, which got very frustrating. John Lennon , however, had the same vocal range as I have, so I can handle any of his songs (except the part in Happiness Is A Warm Gun ). 

Another thing that is not helping Paul's image is the year of 1967. It started with John writing Strawberry Fields Forever , and Paul tried to one-up him, but he only managed to write Penny Lane . I understand anyone who thinks it is a great song, certainly it has a way of moving from happy go lucky to solitary and back again, but it is not nearly as personal or powerful as SFF. The next thing to happen in 67 was Sgt. Pepper . Paul McCartney was the leader of the band, it is undeniable. The only problem is that the two best songs on the album are usually seen as John Lennon songs. Sadly, Paul's best moment on the album, IMHO, was his vocal on the opening track. His section on A Day In The Life would not have been a great song if it had to stand on its own. It is the hype that surrounds it in that the listener knows something incredible is about to happen. For LSD, John Lennon sings the lead vocals, so everyone assumes he wrote the entire song, no matter what Paul claimed in the '80s. Moving onto MMT, Paul has an idea for a single in All Together Now , but John has All You Need Is Love , and it gets played as a "live" performance on TV, as well as taking the A side of the single. Paul finally gets his chance for an A side to show his abilities as a songwriter to the public. This time, he writes a catchy ballad called Hello, Goodbye . Sadly, John has I Am The Walrus , and, even though Paul wins the battle for the A side, the rest of the band totally sabotaged him in the recording of the promotional film. Clearly, Paul was the only one who enjoyed himself on the video, and the viewer is bound to think, "Paul must have forced this one on the band". On the other hand, I Am The Walrus got an awesome promotional clip, and the viewer is back to thinking he is watching the happy Beatles performing, once again, a John Lennon song. 

Well, I could go through everything that happened in 68 and 69, but I am sure you already know the story: John writes deep, personal songs that connect to the listener while Paul just can't get away from silly pop songs. The one time Paul got it right was Hey Jude . I used to think Oh! Darling was a legitimate, heart felt love song. I thought that until I found out it took him a week to get his vocal sound just right. It was a dead giveaway: it's just a sound. Compare it to Don't Let Me Down . IMO, I can hear the pain and weight in John's voice, and it comes through in every version of it I've heard: the single, the rooftop, and several rehearsals. He didn't have to get his voice "just right" because he truly meant it. 

Anyway, I should stop. I honestly wish I didn't know everything I just typed, because then I would love both John and Paul as equals. If you disagree with me, I respect your opinion. The fact is that a lot of people see John Lennon as greater than Paul McCartney , so they are going to have a hard time with him making claims that seem out of line. Now that I think of it, this whole comment could be moved to a more appropriate thread, because I think it would help McCartney fans understand where many John Lennon fans come from. 

Peace. 

I think this post does a great job of illustrating how the John vs. Paul "Which one was the greater genius" issue is never going to be resolved, because so much of its simply revolves around personal, subjective opinion.

You argue that Paul "only" managed to respond to "Strawberry Fields Forever " with "Penny Lane ," which you don't find as powerful or personal as SFF. That's entirely within your right, but critical musical opinion disagrees with your opinion that "Penny Lane " is somehow a lesser song than "SFF." Even Robert Christgau -- hardly disposed to ever favor Paul -- describes "Penny Lane " as the equal of "SFF" -- and in his sycophantic essay in "The Ballad Of John And Yoko ," no less. Gould, Spitz, Mellers, MacDonald -- all regard "Penny Lane " as a masterpiece. You personally don't, which is fine ... but basing your entire argument that "Paul is a lesser talent than John because I personally don't like his stuff as much" is a flawed argument, and it seems as if that's what your post amounts to.  

Second, you claim that John's songs are the best ones on "Pepper" -- again, your opinion, which you are entitled to, but many disagree: Music critic Ned Rorem described "She's Leaving Home" as "the equal to anything Schubert ever did." You may be right -- Paul's lyrical contribution to "ADITL" may not have been impressive if it hadn't been integrated with John's lyrics -- but you neglect to mention that Paul was the one who conceived the idea for the song's orchestration and final piano chord. As for your assertion that "Paul finally gets his chance" to show his skills with an A-side Single and produces the fun but shallow "Hello/Goodbye:" Have you read MacDonald? Paul started producing most of the band's A-side singles after "We Can Work It Out " outsold "Day Tripper ," in 1965.  

As for your assertion that in 1968 and 1969 John was writing deep, personal songs while Paul was writing silly pop songs: I find that somewhat of a simplification. What is "Hey, Jude" or "Let it Be" if not a heartfelt song? How, exactly, is "Bungalow Bill" a deep, personal song? John was producing some deep, personal songs at this time -- "Don't Let me Down" is a tour-de-force -- but so was Paul. You're right: A lot of people see John as greater than Paul. But some people don't. IMO, too much of the "John was greater than Paul" assessment is tied up in personal, subjective musical opinion, and tends to ignore certain facts. Its also influenced by the many inaccurate and unfair comments John made during the breakup era, and by atrociously biased "biographies" of the group such as Shout! -- which, for the record, also ignores numerous facts.

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Silly Girl said

There's this little thing called different types of voicesa-hard-days-night-john-6

 

I agree, which is why I mentioned it. 

 

Thanks for the apples heart

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Wow, I didn't expect so many replies. I kind of just started typing and then realized I'd been at it for an hour already. 

Maybe "doesn't come across as human" could have been said better. Think of it this way. There is a hard working genius in the band that has a bit of an ego. At first he works with them as a team but gradually he becomes more and more independent. Soon we have some really good songs (maybe even great) that have him playing the majority of the instruments. Eventually people are going to think, "wasn't George the lead guitarist of this band? Can't Paul let us hear him play?", etc. Now, when Paul says anything to indicate he did even more for the Beatles, it will inevitably rub some the wrong way. It doesn't really bother me, but it makes sense if it would for others. 

Basically, the 67 paragraph means that Paul's luck almost always failed him. He was the hardest working, most dedicated Beatle by far, but their output still tells most people that John was the leader of the band even though it was Paul. It also doesn't help that John started the band and his name is first on the songwriting partnership. When Paul tries to set the record straight, most people already have the opinion that John was the creative force and that Paul is just trying to get credit for too much. 

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Ahhh Girl said
Slight derail on the topic of the zebra crossing.

If you haven't seen the video of Joe, our fearless leader, crossing Abbey Road and the posts leading up to and following the video, treat yourself to this fun forum moment http://www.beatlesbible.com/fo.....4/#p113853 (the conversation starts on the page prior to the page where the video is).

Big thanks for pointing me in this direction @Ahhh Girl!! apple01I really enjoyed reading the thread and seeing Joe at the crossing. A Fab Forum highlight indeed!

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Sheepdog said
Wow, I didn't expect so many replies. I kind of just started typing and then realized I'd been at it for an hour already. 

Maybe "doesn't come across as human" could have been said better. Think of it this way. There is a hard working genius in the band that has a bit of an ego. At first he works with them as a team but gradually he becomes more and more independent. Soon we have some really good songs (maybe even great) that have him playing the majority of the instruments. Eventually people are going to think, "wasn't George the lead guitarist of this band? Can't Paul let us hear him play?", etc. Now, when Paul says anything to indicate he did even more for the Beatles, it will inevitably rub some the wrong way. It doesn't really bother me, but it makes sense if it would for others. 

Basically, the 67 paragraph means that Paul's luck almost always failed him. He was the hardest working, most dedicated Beatle by far, but their output still tells most people that John was the leader of the band even though it was Paul. It also doesn't help that John started the band and his name is first on the songwriting partnership. When Paul tries to set the record straight, most people already have the opinion that John was the creative force and that Paul is just trying to get credit for too much. 

I still don't agree with you.

All Beatles had/have an ego; not just Paul. Don't forget that when they had their first recording session at Abbey Road , They were just 19 (George), 20 (Pete and Paul, technically 19, but who cares about a few days) and 21 (John and Ringo) years old. Every 20-something lad that's being adored by thousands of screaming teens wherever they go will develop an ego. There's nothing wrong with that.

You make it sound like it was Paul's idea to change instruments, but they did that regularly; always have. George played lead on most songs, so there's hardly any justification in saying "why can't Paul let George play lead". Besides, have you ever considered that they may have enjoyed changing it up a bit, or that they wanted to give Paul the chance to show he was great at playing guitar too? After all, bass was not his instrument of choice to begin with and had he not been a lefty, he may never have become the bassist in the first place. It was fairly easy for John and George to argue Paul should take Stu's place, because Paul didn't have a guitar on hand when Stu left. Had Paul been right-handed, they couldn't have used the argument of not wanting their guitars restrung, and it may as well have been up to George to pick up the bass. We'll never know.

What I really don't get is the idea that Paul shouldn't ay what he did for the band. Why on Earth should he diminish his role? He did do a lot, and he deserves to be recognised for it. If it rubs people the wrong way when they learn how many instruments he can and did play, or what he contributed to the Beatles catalog, then that's their problem, not Paul's. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Paul have by far the most songs on the later albums, and most A-sides too? I wouldn't call that bad luck. He wrote some of the Beatles' biggest hits in those days. 

I will agree with you on your last point. People do tend to think John =/= the Beatles, and Paul does receive a lot of flak for trying to set the records straight. It's been that way for a long time, and I think it's very unfair. Alas, many people only see black and white. Thus, John becomes the hero, and Paul the villain, though both were neither. 

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I feel that from Brian's death on, the Paul/George Martin axis was too much for John. The shoe was on the other foot. After the White Album (a strong one for John) he began to decline. Still great though!

 

What I've always felt with Paul is that he wants to let people know what he did and so he drops little hints for this reversed tape or that drum sound.......I can't say that's wrong,........Just wish he had less need to do so. Ironically I'd like to see him more self-confident and even dismissive of his achievements, his talent and musicianship.

I really enjoyed his esquire interview.....That's how I like him to be. He's a dominating character, he's no need to wheedle around pretending he isn't.

You don't become a national treasure like Sir Paul without incredible  talent and a pair of unfeasibly large testicles to match...........Just go for it Paul get it all out.......Stop dancing around....... Plain and straight and over with.

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Ahhh Girl
8 August 2015
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I don't know whether to ignore this thread or go bonkers.

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