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Was John Haunted By His Inner Emptiness?
15 November 2015
9.32pm
Wigwam
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Expert Textpert said
 I wonder to what degree being raised by a gay uncle was an influence (his uncle George and aunt Mimi never had sex). It's clear that with Paul, Brian, Stuart, the Maharishi, Magic Alex, Arthur Janov, and others, John was always looking for a strong male presence in his life. I think he found this in Yoko, who is very male.

I agree about your Yoko point but Uncle George gay because he never had sex with Mimi?.....If that's the only evidence I'm not so sure. Could be lots of reasons for that......Apart from anything else  I'd imagine Mimi only coming near George's privates wearing kitchen gloves while holding a pair of coal tongs.

15 November 2015
9.51pm
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Starr Shine?
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ahdn_paul_06 No sex doesn't mean gay. One or both could be asexual or maybe they are celibate.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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15 November 2015
10.38pm
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Ron Nasty
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There is certainly speculation about George Toogood Smith's sexuality, though nothing proved. However, his marriage to Mimi was sexless, and is often seen to be a marriage of convenience. It is easy to see what Mimi got from the marriage (status, an escape from the family home, a situation that allowed her to give up working), but far less easy to understood what George got. Because of the laws on homosexuality at the time, many gay men married to avoid speculation and rumours.

I am not saying George was gay, merely agreeing that he may have been, though there is no any evidence he ever acted on those feelings if he was.

Certainly, with Mimi known to have had a sexual relationship with at least one of the students who lodged at Mendips after George's death, she wasn't someone who was adverse to sex.

One interesting thing to note about George's gravestone is that there is no mention of his marriage, no "Beloved Husband of Mimi". I'm not saying that proves anything, but it is an interesting absence in light of what is known of their marriage.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

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16 November 2015
5.03am
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meanmistermustard
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Maybe they married, found they didn't like each other and spent the next 40 years (or whatever it was) casually tolerating each other whilst staying together for the sake of John and the prying eyes and ears of society.

Who knows but it wouldn't have been the first marriage where sex was not happening between the two.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

16 November 2015
10.32am
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Zig
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meanmistermustard said
Maybe they married, found they didn't like each other and spent the next 40 years (or whatever it was) casually tolerating each other whilst staying together for the sake of John and the prying eyes and ears of society.

Who knows but it wouldn't have been the first marriage where sex was not happening between the two.

Good points - here's another. People did not get divorced so quickly back then either. If memory serves, weren't Alfred and Julia Lennon still technically married when Julia gave birth to John's half sisters?

In any event, I've read nothing definitive that says Uncle George was or wasn't homosexual. Has anyone else?

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, let it roll for all its worth. And all the children boogie.

16 November 2015
10.57am
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meanmistermustard
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I've never read Uncle George was gay anywhere, not even as a rumour in the worst, most grubbiest Beatles biographies out there - and there has been tons of crap written. If there was any hint of a suggestion from anyone it would surely have been printed or repeated somewhere.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

16 November 2015
11.22am
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Philip Norman does everything but come out and say it directly that George was gay. He strongly hints at it.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

16 November 2015
11.39am
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I thought of the wrong George at first... a-hard-days-night-paul-4

Anyway, isn't Phillip Norman somewhat unreliable? Not that I've ever read any of his books but I seem to recall folk round these parts saying that he wrote a lot of bunk. 

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16 November 2015
12.05pm
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Silly Girl said

I thought of the wrong George at first... a-hard-days-night-paul-4

Anyway, isn't Phillip Norman somewhat unreliable? Not that I've ever read any of his books but I seem to recall folk round these parts saying that he wrote a lot of bunk. 

Well, his bio of John strongly hinted that John was gay, and then Yoko came out and said he was attracted to men--so I wouldn't discount Norman's insights. I found his style of writing rather annoying, though.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

16 November 2015
12.13pm
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I gave up reading 'Shout' as it was so badly written.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

16 November 2015
6.32pm
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George wasn't a shirt-lifter.......Just imagine attempting to maintain your poise when Mimi attacks with her rubber gloves and coal tongs.

 

I remember enjoying SHOUT......There wasn't anything like the number of books around then that there are now and so I was learning lots of stuff that was new to me.

That obviously becomes less and less the case theses days. Having read more there's less that's new in any book I come across. 'Knew that, knew that, knew that knew that, knew that.....Ooo didn't know that!............Don't believe it!'

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16 November 2015
7.09pm
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Ron Nasty
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Can I please request that terms like "shirt-lifter" are not used here? It is a derogatory way of referring to homosexuals, and given we are likely to have homosexual members of the forum, and we are asked always to be respectful of other forum users, I do not believe that type of offensive and outdated language has any place here.

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"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

17 November 2015
2.39am
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Ron Nasty said
Can I please request that terms like "shirt-lifter" are not used here? It is a derogatory way of referring to homosexuals, and given we are likely to have homosexual members of the forum, and we are asked always to be respectful of other forum users, I do not believe that type of offensive and outdated language has any place here.

 

Are you a Mod Nasty or just the spotty swot in the front row whining to the teacher that Valerie Greenwood has just farted?

 

Ban me....and done with it........ but it's not your business to interfere.

17 November 2015
8.41am
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Ron Nasty
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I am sorry you feel that way, @Wigwam. @Joe has previously commented that it is not his and the mods job alone to police the forum, but that it down to all users to ensure the forum is the welcoming and friendly place we all want it to be. If I see something I believe detrimental to the forum, I will voice my opinion (as should others so long as it's kept polite and constructive). I could, of course, just have reported your post for offensive and derogatory language, but didn't see the need - hoping that a polite request would be enough.

I'm sorry you feel only Joe, @Ahhh Girl, @meanmistermustard and @Zig are in a position to object to language that is likely to cause offence, and that other forum users should just ignore such things.

Though not a mod, as you know, I see nothing wrong in objecting to a term such as "shirt-lifter" being used here to describe homosexuals, and requesting that it not be.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

Stay at home, protect your nation's health services, save lives, and do...
The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

17 November 2015
9.19am
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Ahhh Girl
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@Wigwam, I didn't perceived RN's request as interference. He was just thinking about what is best for the forum and its members. Please don't leave. We all value your contributions to the forum.

17 November 2015
1.12pm
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meanmistermustard
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Everyone has the right to raise their voice in regards to comments they feel are unsavoury or potentially offensive, not just the mods. Maybe its better to report the comment via the report button, maybe not.

In regards to the term "shirt lifter" as it can be taken as an offensive term it would be better for the forum as a whole if such a term is not used as we want everyone to feel at home and not be put off - the same as a number of words and phrases. However I am highly confident that no offense was intended and no one is getting banned or put into quarantine or anything like that. 

Just move on and continue the conversation that the thread is about.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

17 November 2015
1.37pm
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Zig
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I can't add much more than AG and mmm already have. I will confirm, however, that anyone who is offended by terms or language that could be deemed as derogatory can certainly voice their opinions. The manner in which it is done should also be taken into consideration in order to avoid the appearance of calling someone out in public.

Apologies to anyone who experienced any awkward feelings and I do hope we can learn from this and move on.

Thanks. 

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, let it roll for all its worth. And all the children boogie.

17 November 2015
1.38pm
Wigwam
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I'm 63......unreconstructed and working class.....

If the rough edges haven't all been knocked off me by now they'll have to fit in the coffin with me. 

If the comedic/affectionate term (in my world) 'shirt-lifter' gives Ron a Nasty turn of the conniptions, I don't give a fly's belch. 

 

However i do value his knowledgeable contributions to this board.

 

As you see I'm canvassing hard for the End of Year, 'Square Peg in a Sea Of Holes award'

17 November 2015
1.53pm
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meanmistermustard
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We all have to be thoughtful and mindful of everyone else on here otherwise it just becomes a little less fun for everyone.

 

We were talking about Uncle George and his state of marriage with Mimi, lets get back to that.

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17 November 2015
2.18pm
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Shamrock Womlbs
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I think john's biggest emptiness was Julia 's absence. But, mainly, the absence of the person who encouraged him to be what he finally became. His mother, friend, music partner, soulmate, etc...

So i think he was probably haunted by the fact that he couldn't share all his triumphs with his mother, the only support he has when wanted to learn to play guitar.

besides of being his mother, she was his encouragment.

More or less

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