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history of violence??
24 December 2013
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acmac
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John squelching Cynthia’s artistic endeavors is one of the most disturbing things about John, to me. I wonder if the painting-over event happened before or after Sgt Pepper as John shows some awareness of himself with the “I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loved” line.

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^ It happened before, I think they’d only just moved into Kenwood. I agree that this aspect of John isn’t a very nice one, to say the least. I don’t know if it’s because of jealousy because he liked to be the best, and Cynthia had/has talent, or what….

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Funny Paper said 

Lennon was a great musician; a piss-poor and reckless politician.

 

 

Lennon actually achieved much success as a “politician”, more so than many others, in my opinion.  John Sinclair, who was sentenced to 10 years hard time for possessing two marijuana joints (that’s right, two freakin’ joints!) and denied parole on more than one occasion, was suddenly released from prison literally two days after John Lennon performed his song ‘John Sinclair’ at a rally in support of the man, I’d say that he was even feared by other politicians because of his political pull, “reckless”?  Sure, but far from “piss-poor”.  He even survived attempts by others to victimize him with politics, such as the repeated attempts to have him deported, he appeared to me to have somewhat mastered the game of politics.

 

The well documented, and much criticised Peace Campaigns were later proved to be far ahead of their time.  ‘Give Peace A Chance ‘ is an anthem that’s become a staple at most peace demonstrations worldwide many decades later.  While John’s message is still getting out there, most politicians who took up office in 1969 are long forgotten, most people can’t even recite their names let alone their message today.  The ‘Happy Xmas (War Is Over)’ record which didn’t fare too well in the United States at the time of its release (although it was a big hit in the UK) is still used very effectively each year to remind those of us who are more fortunate than others to think of those who aren’t at Christmas time.

 

John’s political shenanigans were very difficult to digest by many of those who’d followed his music career since the early days, some were even turned off by him forever, but it’s kinda hard not to acknowledge the far reaching success of his political ideals and the effect on today’s society, it’s as immeasurable as The Beatles’ effect has on today’s world and very comparable.  Just as The Beatles spawned generations of countless souls seeking to further establish musical and cultural boundaries, Lennon “the politician” has spawned generations of his own, inspired to give back the “Power To The People “…:-) 

3 January 2014
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I agree with much of what you say there, BR. Unfortunately have to disagree that Lennon had anything to do with John Sinclair’s released, or that Sinclair’s release was at all sudden.

The rally, which featured many prominent artist including Stevie Wonder, Bob Seger and Phil Ochs, was held when it was held because there was a case due at the Michigan Supreme Court two days after that rally challenging the constitutionality of the State’s marijuana laws.

Sinclair’s imprisonment under those laws brought them to national prominence, but he was far from the only person imprisoned under them.

The Michigan Supreme Court struck down the State’s harsh marijuana laws as unconstitutional, and Sinclair was released alongside many others following the day after the Court’s ruling.

The Sinclair case was a small part of America’s constant battle before and since between Federal, State and local law, and the Michigan case is famous not for the release of Sinclair, but for the lines it drew in enforcing anti-marijuana laws between Federal, State and local law/policy.

A battle that is still going on today, and has every chance of reaching the US Supreme Court as more States legalise marijuana against Federal law.

Sinclair was not released unexpectedly because John sang a song he wrote about the injustice of him being imprisoned under Michigan’s laws regarding marijuana, but because the State’s Supreme Court threw out those laws as breaking your constitution, which meant Sinclair and many others were freed. Once the State’s ruled the law unconstitutional, Sinclair’s release was completely expected.

 

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While I agree that it would be idealistic to suggest that “because John sang a song he wrote” were the chief reason for Sinclair’s release, I think it’s inaccurate to say that he didn’t have “anything to do with John Sinclair’s release” just the same.  While much of the publicity centered around the Michigan State Laws and whether or not they were justified, John shone a light on the humanitarian aspect to which many weren’t aware of, the fact that an American Family Man was being given the same treatment as one would a Foreign Terrorist for simply possessing two marijuana joints.  Raising awareness about the John Sinclair case, which mirrored many others, could very well have been what ultimately turned the tide.  I’d say that John Lennon , along with Jerry Rubin, were instrumental in finally having this man reunited with his family for up until their involvement, John Sinclair was just another American Criminal that no one cared to know about.  Political pressure was mounting on the powers that be from all sides, but only John Lennon could steal the headlines from the politicking that had been delaying and denying this man’s release that was long overdue…:-)

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A recent situation that nearly turned violent had me oddly thinking about John. Did John actually know how to fight? I remember a documentary about The Who where Roger was talking about fighting his way out of the stage door after a concert. Beyond the whole Mods vs Rockers situation, he said there was also rampant homophobia triggered by him wearing sheer chiffon tops, makeup, purple velvet pants, etc… Where I live we have an event called Fleet Week where ships of sailors who have been patrolling the Pacific dock into San Francisco Bay and cause havoc. I’ve gone a few times and there are sailors punching each other on every corner. So my thoughts go to Hamburg. I just don’t see Paul, George and Ringo taking on drunken sailors, so did that task fall on John. If so (as I suspect) who taught him how to fight. That kid on the back of the truck at St Peter’s Church does not look too tough. Most of my friends learned how to fight from their father. My mom did not allow my dad to teach me how to fight, which may be why I’m even thinking about this.

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sigh butterfly said
A recent situation that nearly turned violent had me oddly thinking about John. Did John actually know how to fight? 

  

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GEORGE: In fact, The Detroit Sound. JOHN: In fact, yes. GEORGE: In fact, yeah. Tamla-Motown artists are our favorites. The Miracles. JOHN: We like Marvin Gaye. GEORGE: The Impressions PAUL & GEORGE: Mary Wells. GEORGE: The Exciters. RINGO: Chuck Jackson. JOHN: To name but eighty. 

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Yup, that’s how I looked too.a-hard-days-night-ringo-15

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26 June 2022
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Especially in the modern age, there is a trend of calling out past behaviour. It does annoy me when John gets raked over the coals as if it’s some big revelation. He openly spoke about it all, particularly in his last interviews. If he were alive, how many times would he be expected to repeat regrets before being allowed to move on? John being a darker, troubled soul with caustic wit is actually part of why I love him, and I understand others just won’t understand that. Which makes him their least favourite Beatle. The general populace is hoodwinked with the Imagine caricature.

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1 July 2022
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Timothy said
Especially in the modern age, there is a trend of calling out past behaviour. It does annoy me when John gets raked over the coals as if it’s some big revelation. He openly spoke about it all, particularly in his last interviews. If he were alive, how many times would he be expected to repeat regrets before being allowed to move on? John being a darker, troubled soul with caustic wit is actually part of why I love him, and I understand others just won’t understand that. Which makes him their least favourite Beatle. The general populace is hoodwinked with the Imagine caricature.

  

It’s a bunch of things but most of the blame lies with the management of the Lennon estate. Yoko wanted to sell John’s image as a saint and for a while that was possible because the people who grew up with his music wanted him to be perfect. But following generations simply aren’t going to have that perspective, and the harder that the Lennon estate tries to sweep his problems under the rug, the more fun it becomes to muckrake them. John had a lot to hide and a lot to be ashamed of, and the fact that he is not here today to own up to his mistakes is partly what makes it easy to paint a target on him. After all, John is dead. There’s nothing he can do or say to defend himself.

However the other part of it is John himself. For better or for worse, John tried to be honest about what he was feeling and thinking, even though he was prone to switching on a dime depending on how manic he felt that day. (John was deeply unwell and he would have benefited greatly from a lithium prescription to manage his mood swings IMO.) But he himself admitted that he was an abusive man who hurt people. He talked openly about how he “fought men and beat women” throughout the 1970s. In his final interview in 1980 he said that he was deeply ashamed of how he had treated women as a young man and that he wouldn’t be able to publicly face his history of pointless cruelty and abuse for a very long time.

Well, it turns out that he never got that chance. So John is now frozen in a strange limbo state: we know that he was self aware enough to know that he had physically, emotionally, and psychologically damaged people but he never got the chance to do penance for his mistakes. 

I am willing to believe Cynthia when she says that John only hit her once but it doesn’t erase the emotional and mental abuse he put her through because he was such an awful person. She was marked and damaged by it to the end of her days. Julian still feels the hurt. Sean still feels the weight of what happened to him and he only knew John for 5 years. John was so viciously hateful, cruel, and vindictive towards his best friend Paul McCartney that Paul, to this day in TYOOL 2022 at age 80, still isn’t entirely sure if John ever truly loved him or if John was lying to him for all those years. (In fact I recently read an older interview where Paul openly talked about how he felt suicidal in 1970 and actually considered killing himself because he was so emotionally and psychologically destroyed by the break up of the band…which of course was entirely driven by John Lennon . The only reason Paul didn’t do it is because he couldn’t bear to leave Linda, Heather, and Mary. So he didn’t.)

So it is easy for John Lennon to become an internet hatesink when he himself confessed his history of domestic violence and abuse. He patently admitted that he deserved whatever criticism came his way, hence his comments about “not being able to publicly face” how he had treated women as a young man.

And on top of it all, rich white men are just easy internet hatesinks, especially when they’re dead and can’t defend themselves. Steve Jobs was similarly abusive like John, and he is also a popular figure to pour vitriol onto.

I am willing to cut John a modicum of slack. He had a deeply unstable family situation with his father abandoning him, his mother abandoning him only to walk back into his life when he was a teen because she felt guilty about being a deadbeat mom, and then he had to grow up with that awful abusive aunt of his, Mimi Smith. (Let’s not forget that dear Aunt Mimi actually had John’s pet dog euthanized in a fit of jealous rage when John ran away from home to be with his mother for a few days. Pete Shotton talked about this in his book and said that it was the only time he ever saw John cry.) John Lennon had no positive male role models when he was growing up and he is in fact a critical example of how badly boys need fathers and strong men in their lives to demonstrate and teach honor, integrity, compassion, etc. because if boys don’t have those role models then they will instead gravitate toward anti-social behavior, just like John did. The real miracle of John Lennon is that he could have in fact done much, much worse. What kept him from going too far off the rails is that he had that kernel of self awareness that I think stopped him cold a few times. And the truth is that he had that soft core to him, that he desperately wanted to give love and tenderness and safety to the people around him.

When I think of John’s struggles I actually think of Peter Cullen, the voice of Optimus Prime. Peter Cullen once talked about how he was about to audition for the voice role of Optimus and his older brother gave him some advice: “You are strong enough to be gentle.” And that Peter made this the centerpiece of the Optimus Prime role and hence is still one of the most iconic VAs ever. Peter’s brother was a Vietnam war veteran himself and knew the true value of peace.

But the problem with John is that he was weak. He was not strong enough to be a gentle person, though I think he desperately wanted to be.

I feel badly for John up to a point — I did make him my pfp here for a reason — and I understand he had a lot of baggage that made it incredibly hard for him to be the kind and loving person that he wanted to be. But that only goes so far. John made his bed and he knew he had to lie in it, that he couldn’t hide behind his own history of being an abuse victim. The psychological and emotional damage that he inflicted on the people who loved him and were loyal to him is still visible. Paul McCartney is still not whole without his creative partner and when I watched Paul performing with John’s projection at Glastonbury, I saw a man fighting not to burst into tears. But John Lennon is the one who made that break up so horrific and awful, with great deliberation and forethought. Julian and Sean Lennon both love John as a father but they are also visibly conflicted about him, which is often the case for children who were raised by abusive parents. Having a parent who abused you is the most damaging relationship possible and John inflicted this on both of his children before he passed.

In the long run it is not fair to John that he has turned into a hatesink. For god’s sake, Chris Brown almost murdered Rihanna when he tried to kill her by beating her near to death. Ringo Starr himself almost killed at least one of his wives by accident because he got drunk and high and almost beat her to death — the only detail I’m fuzzy on is if it was Maureen or Barbara. (Maybe even both…God , I hope not, but there you go.) But on the other hand, well, he chose it. He chose it every time he did something awful. He chose it when he painted over Cynthia’s creative talents, he chose it when he slapped Thelma for not having sex with him, he chose it when he burst Sean’s eardrum when he screamed at him, he chose it when he shouted at Julian to stop laughing. He chose it when he drove Paul McCartney to suicidal despair.

It sucks that John is an internet hatesink but he earned every last bit of it. To me, the saddest part is that he knew that.

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Maddingway said

He chose it when he drove Paul McCartney to suicidal despair.

  

I dont think this is really fair or accurate – Paul himself was as much to blame for the Beatles breakup as was John. As was George; and Yoko, and heroin, and Allen Klein, etc.

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Von Bontee said

Maddingway said

He chose it when he drove Paul McCartney to suicidal despair.

  

I dont think this is really fair or accurate – Paul himself was as much to blame for the Beatles breakup as was John. As was George; and Yoko, and heroin, and Allen Klein, etc.

  

Oh, Paul McCartney was absolutely insufferable from at least Revolver onwards. Diva behavior, control freak, jerking the other band members around, and essentially descending into petty tyranny starting with Sgt. Pepper because he had not yet accepted that John had abdicated his leadership role and that he didn’t want to be a Beatle anymore without being strong enough to leave the band on his own.

But that doesn’t make John’s tactics okay. He was warned by Mick Jagger that Allen Klein was a bad investment after Klein spent a good while withholding money from the Stones and playing games with their profits. John was the one who signed up for Allen Klein’s divide and conquer tactics. John is the one who convinced George and Ringo to outvote Paul instead of keeping the four man consensus. John is the one who, quite deliberately, used the years of frustration and petty grudges to entice George and Ringo into forcing Paul into a corner. John was the one who refused to let Paul go legally after John made a big fuss about divorcing Paul and ending the Beatles which forced Paul to sue him to cut legal ties with him. John is the one who tried to strongarm Ray Connolly into leaking the story about the divorce because John didn’t want to be publicly seen as breaking up the Beatles.

Is Paul a jerk? Sometimes. Is he a controlling bully? You bet. Is he mindful of the well being of his co workers and friends when he’s knee deep in a project? Nope. Was he there for John when John needed him when his mental health was collapsing from 1965-1968? Naw.

OTOH Paul also tried to commit suicide by smothering himself in his pillows because of how hateful and vicious John was during the break up. Including that oh so delightful “Lennon Remembers” interview which John later had to recant, where John pretended that he had never liked Paul, that he had stopped writing with Paul for years (which earlier interviews proved was not the case, they were writing in the same room together as late as 1968 if not 1969), the interview where John did his best to burn down everything good about his relationship with Paul. John wanted to put the same doubt, fear, and despair into Paul that plagued John through out his life. He did it very deliberately. I have to emphasize this because I think that there’s this perception that John didn’t necessarily mean to hurt Paul or that he was just so in love Yoko that he couldn’t help himself. but he meant to do it. He intended it.

John didn’t intend for Paul to consider killing himself but he absolutely meant to hurt Paul. The entire purpose of releasing HDYS was to hurt Paul as deeply and cruelly as he could. And he succeeded. He succeeded in convincing Paul that John had never loved him in the first place — a fact that we as outside observers can see was patently false, that John cherished their friendship to the end, but due to John’s emotional baggage and personal flaws he could not bring himself to tell Paul that.

Paul became a petty tyrant over the rest of the band and that’s awful especially since he helped blow the whole thing up, but I personally can’t let that obscure the weight of what John did especially in the context of John’s already established history of abuse. John treated Paul even worse than he treated Cynthia in some ways, and both of these urges of his came from the same place.

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Maddingway said

Von Bontee said

Maddingway said

He chose it when he drove Paul McCartney to suicidal despair.

  

I dont think this is really fair or accurate – Paul himself was as much to blame for the Beatles breakup as was John. As was George; and Yoko, and heroin, and Allen Klein, etc.

 

OTOH Paul also tried to commit suicide by smothering himself in his pillows because of how hateful and vicious John was during the break up. 

  

Wow, I’ve never read about that story, tho I knew of Paul’s depression in 1969-70, awful. 

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vonbontee said

Wow, I’ve never read about that story, tho I knew of Paul’s depression in 1969-70, awful. 

  

Don’t blame you at all, Paul has done his best to keep it buried after he vomited it up at random during an interview. He mentioned it once (I think in the same interview that he admitted he actually tried heroin in a serious fashion that same year because he was trying to numb himself to everything but the heroin never did anything for him so he gave up on it.) Paul clearly does not like talking about it and I think he regrets ever mentioning it. The only reason I know about it is because I found it floating on Tumblr, it came from a scanned magazine in the 1980s I think? I’d have to go back through my blog to find it, I’ll do it when I have a rainy day. but yeah, 1970 was a horrible awful year for all four of them.

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I think, you are talking about this interview by Playboy (1984), with Linda and Paul : http://www.beatlesinterviews.o…..atles.html

Or maybe, the one where is talking about how painful it was to listen How do you sleep (with the “muzak” thing) but I can’t find it.

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sigh butterfly said
A recent situation that nearly turned violent had me oddly thinking about John. Did John actually know how to fight? I remember a documentary about The Who where Roger was talking about fighting his way out of the stage door after a concert. Beyond the whole Mods vs Rockers situation, he said there was also rampant homophobia triggered by him wearing sheer chiffon tops, makeup, purple velvet pants, etc… Where I live we have an event called Fleet Week where ships of sailors who have been patrolling the Pacific dock into San Francisco Bay and cause havoc. I’ve gone a few times and there are sailors punching each other on every corner. So my thoughts go to Hamburg. I just don’t see Paul, George and Ringo taking on drunken sailors, so did that task fall on John. If so (as I suspect) who taught him how to fight. That kid on the back of the truck at St Peter’s Church does not look too tough. Most of my friends learned how to fight from their father. My mom did not allow my dad to teach me how to fight, which may be why I’m even thinking about this.

  

 

Hehe, based on the Fab 4s appearances none of them looked like fighters and probably had no experience in boxing sparring at all. But amongst his Beatle peers, excluding Pete Best, John was probably the most “rough” individual (but that doesn’t mean too much, lol). Look at the photos with Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali from their 1964 tour and you can see that Ali would have probably tumbled all of them over each other with one jab like bowling pins if he got mad.

John claimed that he “fought” other men but beat women… But if you look at the men John “fought” they were always either smaller than him or heavily intoxicated on some substance. Look at Bob Wooler who was quite a short man that John almost beat to death, or the weaker “friends” he taunted and smashed washboards on, or the drunken sailor… And in art school he had some large Indian man that protected him when people of his own size wanted to fight.

Although I love the man’s music and find him and his intellect fascinating (especially from the Rubber Soul to the Abbey Road era), I must admit that he was a bully who took advantage of weaker people (both men and women) and mocked the disabled and so forth. But during the later Beatle years he became more interesting/”artsy”, introspective and creative and less violent due to psychedelics, the avant garde scene and maturity.

When The Hell’s Angels occupied Apple during the Christmas season in 1968 John seemed like he was far removed from his Teddyboy era with his goofy santa costume over his greasy long hair, grandma glasses and dirty canvas shoes – and an equally goofy looking Yoko by his side. From what I’ve read Harrison was actually the only Beatle who had the courage to tell the occupants to leave.

So maybe George was the real tough guy after all?

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That’s a very interesting assessment, @IAmTheLongbus. Thank you.

And in the end

The love you take is equal to the love you make

 

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Maddingway said

Timothy said
Especially in the modern age, there is a trend of calling out past behaviour. It does annoy me when John gets raked over the coals as if it’s some big revelation. He openly spoke about it all, particularly in his last interviews. If he were alive, how many times would he be expected to repeat regrets before being allowed to move on? John being a darker, troubled soul with caustic wit is actually part of why I love him, and I understand others just won’t understand that. Which makes him their least favourite Beatle. The general populace is hoodwinked with the Imagine caricature.

  

It’s a bunch of things but most of the blame lies with the management of the Lennon estate. Yoko wanted to sell John’s image as a saint and for a while that was possible because the people who grew up with his music wanted him to be perfect. But following generations simply aren’t going to have that perspective, and the harder that the Lennon estate tries to sweep his problems under the rug, the more fun it becomes to muckrake them. John had a lot to hide and a lot to be ashamed of, and the fact that he is not here today to own up to his mistakes is partly what makes it easy to paint a target on him. After all, John is dead. There’s nothing he can do or say to defend himself.

However the other part of it is John himself. For better or for worse, John tried to be honest about what he was feeling and thinking, even though he was prone to switching on a dime depending on how manic he felt that day. (John was deeply unwell and he would have benefited greatly from a lithium prescription to manage his mood swings IMO.) But he himself admitted that he was an abusive man who hurt people. He talked openly about how he “fought men and beat women” throughout the 1970s. In his final interview in 1980 he said that he was deeply ashamed of how he had treated women as a young man and that he wouldn’t be able to publicly face his history of pointless cruelty and abuse for a very long time.

Well, it turns out that he never got that chance. So John is now frozen in a strange limbo state: we know that he was self aware enough to know that he had physically, emotionally, and psychologically damaged people but he never got the chance to do penance for his mistakes. 

I am willing to believe Cynthia when she says that John only hit her once but it doesn’t erase the emotional and mental abuse he put her through because he was such an awful person. She was marked and damaged by it to the end of her days. Julian still feels the hurt. Sean still feels the weight of what happened to him and he only knew John for 5 years. John was so viciously hateful, cruel, and vindictive towards his best friend Paul McCartney that Paul, to this day in TYOOL 2022 at age 80, still isn’t entirely sure if John ever truly loved him or if John was lying to him for all those years. (In fact I recently read an older interview where Paul openly talked about how he felt suicidal in 1970 and actually considered killing himself because he was so emotionally and psychologically destroyed by the break up of the band…which of course was entirely driven by John Lennon . The only reason Paul didn’t do it is because he couldn’t bear to leave Linda, Heather, and Mary. So he didn’t.)

So it is easy for John Lennon to become an internet hatesink when he himself confessed his history of domestic violence and abuse. He patently admitted that he deserved whatever criticism came his way, hence his comments about “not being able to publicly face” how he had treated women as a young man.

And on top of it all, rich white men are just easy internet hatesinks, especially when they’re dead and can’t defend themselves. Steve Jobs was similarly abusive like John, and he is also a popular figure to pour vitriol onto.

I am willing to cut John a modicum of slack. He had a deeply unstable family situation with his father abandoning him, his mother abandoning him only to walk back into his life when he was a teen because she felt guilty about being a deadbeat mom, and then he had to grow up with that awful abusive aunt of his, Mimi Smith. (Let’s not forget that dear Aunt Mimi actually had John’s pet dog euthanized in a fit of jealous rage when John ran away from home to be with his mother for a few days. Pete Shotton talked about this in his book and said that it was the only time he ever saw John cry.) John Lennon had no positive male role models when he was growing up and he is in fact a critical example of how badly boys need fathers and strong men in their lives to demonstrate and teach honor, integrity, compassion, etc. because if boys don’t have those role models then they will instead gravitate toward anti-social behavior, just like John did. The real miracle of John Lennon is that he could have in fact done much, much worse. What kept him from going too far off the rails is that he had that kernel of self awareness that I think stopped him cold a few times. And the truth is that he had that soft core to him, that he desperately wanted to give love and tenderness and safety to the people around him.

When I think of John’s struggles I actually think of Peter Cullen, the voice of Optimus Prime. Peter Cullen once talked about how he was about to audition for the voice role of Optimus and his older brother gave him some advice: “You are strong enough to be gentle.” And that Peter made this the centerpiece of the Optimus Prime role and hence is still one of the most iconic VAs ever. Peter’s brother was a Vietnam war veteran himself and knew the true value of peace.

But the problem with John is that he was weak. He was not strong enough to be a gentle person, though I think he desperately wanted to be.

I feel badly for John up to a point — I did make him my pfp here for a reason — and I understand he had a lot of baggage that made it incredibly hard for him to be the kind and loving person that he wanted to be. But that only goes so far. John made his bed and he knew he had to lie in it, that he couldn’t hide behind his own history of being an abuse victim. The psychological and emotional damage that he inflicted on the people who loved him and were loyal to him is still visible. Paul McCartney is still not whole without his creative partner and when I watched Paul performing with John’s projection at Glastonbury, I saw a man fighting not to burst into tears. But John Lennon is the one who made that break up so horrific and awful, with great deliberation and forethought. Julian and Sean Lennon both love John as a father but they are also visibly conflicted about him, which is often the case for children who were raised by abusive parents. Having a parent who abused you is the most damaging relationship possible and John inflicted this on both of his children before he passed.

In the long run it is not fair to John that he has turned into a hatesink. For god’s sake, Chris Brown almost murdered Rihanna when he tried to kill her by beating her near to death. Ringo Starr himself almost killed at least one of his wives by accident because he got drunk and high and almost beat her to death — the only detail I’m fuzzy on is if it was Maureen or Barbara. (Maybe even both…God , I hope not, but there you go.) But on the other hand, well, he chose it. He chose it every time he did something awful. He chose it when he painted over Cynthia’s creative talents, he chose it when he slapped Thelma for not having sex with him, he chose it when he burst Sean’s eardrum when he screamed at him, he chose it when he shouted at Julian to stop laughing. He chose it when he drove Paul McCartney to suicidal despair.

It sucks that John is an internet hatesink but he earned every last bit of it. To me, the saddest part is that he knew that.  

I know your heart is in the right place here, but I believe it is YOU who are also being cruel to John here. You make only very a very passing mention of the atonements he did make, and the effort he put in to be a better person. He crucified himself for it constantly, wrote songs encouraging people NOT to be like he was, AND you seem to insinuate that Sean somehow resents and fears him because of things he apologized for profusely. That is NOT the case in fact.

No one is going to deny he wasn’t perfect, but the man was TRYING, and he died before he could fully become who he wanted to be, which was even more unfair. He did everything a man in his position could dare to be asked to do to change, and here people are, years later, holding a dead man on trial for things he had tried all of his life to atone for. All posts like these are proof of is that too many in this world will never fully understand that man.

He did not “EARN” this!! What he’s EARNED is to be able to rest in peace and be remembered for the man he was underneath his flaws. The man who was honest, caring and forthright about his past. That’s a hell of a lot more than most people could ever dream of.

Further, NO: John isn’t being falsely marketed by Yoko. It Is WE who do it! We, who are the same people that decided to condemn four men to an eternity in “Hell” just because one of those four men happened to say something we didn’t like. We, who decided that four men from Liverpool who enjoy squawking like Seagulls into a microphone just for the juvenile pleasure of hearing their own voices on the delay, should be interpreted as harbingers of suffering and misery by not one, not two, but THREE madmen who each carried out brutal, monstrous, inhuman acts upon their fellow man because of things they thought those four men stood for. WE are the problem, and we were the problem LONG before John Winston Ono-Lennon died. He even told us as much numerous times while he was alive, and we STILL didn’t listen. I think that says a lot more about humanity as a whole than it does about who John as a human being. Someone who, at his core, was nothing more than a child with parental issues thrust into a situation no earthly human at his age could be expected to come out of unscathed. Yet, we sit here and analyze their lives as if we have any right to condemn them for making mistakes, or as if we would have handled it any better by default. I think such thinking is not only unproductive and toxic, but it missed the point to boot: The Beatles are HUMAN, and they were BEAUTIFUL humans, each in their own ways.

There’s a lot – and I do mean A LOT i could dissect about your claims regarding John’s mental health the nature of his relationship with Cynthia, Julian et all. All of which are filled with things that range from a common misconception to just plain untrue, but I’m not going to fight with you. I believe in my heart that It’s not what John would want, and unlike some people these days, I love that man far, far too much to argue as if it will change anything. I can only ask that you try and look at it another way, or else wish you well and move on. I don’t believe you had any Ill will, but i cannot agree with a lot of your assertions at all, and i know plenty here who are smarter than me who will say I’m not alone. ESPECISLLY about Paul, and I’m not interested in discussing that at all.

John was a troubled man, but he was not beyond redemption. FAR from it. I apologize if I’m mistaking your meaning, but I have to call it as i see it and I must disagree with you.

15 August 2022
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MattWatchingWheels
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IAmTheLongbus said

 

Hehe, based on the Fab 4s appearances none of them looked like fighters and probably had no experience in boxing sparring at all. But amongst his Beatle peers, excluding Pete Best, John was probably the most “rough” individual (but that doesn’t mean too much, lol). Look at the photos with Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali from their 1964 tour and you can see that Ali would have probably tumbled all of them over each other with one jab like bowling pins if he got mad.

John claimed that he “fought” other men but beat women… But if you look at the men John “fought” they were always either smaller than him or heavily intoxicated on some substance. Look at Bob Wooler who was quite a short man that John almost beat to death, or the weaker “friends” he taunted and smashed washboards on, or the drunken sailor… And in art school he had some large Indian man that protected him when people of his own size wanted to fight.

Although I love the man’s music and find him and his intellect fascinating (especially from the Rubber Soul to the Abbey Road era), I must admit that he was a bully who took advantage of weaker people (both men and women) and mocked the disabled and so forth. But during the later Beatle years he became more interesting/”artsy”, introspective and creative and less violent due to psychedelics, the avant garde scene and maturity.

When The Hell’s Angels occupied Apple during the Christmas season in 1968 John seemed like he was far removed from his Teddyboy era with his goofy santa costume over his greasy long hair, grandma glasses and dirty canvas shoes – and an equally goofy looking Yoko by his side. From what I’ve read Harrison was actually the only Beatle who had the courage to tell the occupants to leave.

So maybe George was the real tough guy after all?  

I want to point out that as a disabled person, I don’t consider him to have resented or mocked us at all. The “CLAP YOUR HANSHHH” bit, which is what im assuming you’re referring to was maybe in poor taste, but he wasn’t doing it out of hate, I do not believe. I blame the public forcing them on the band constantly. Not even like a make-a-wish, but to PRAY WITH THEM! Creepy stuff! He was bound to joke about it eventually. I dont think he had any hate in his heart about it though.

15 August 2022
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castironshore
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Whatever Johns reasons for violence there is no doubt whatsoever that he was an exceptionally tough guy. There is evidence of him leathering audience members in both Hamburg and Liverpool and very few people stood up to him because of his propensity for violence. Paul even admitted that he hided behind it a bit. 

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