Help Oppose John Lennon's Killer from getting Parole  | Page 3 | Fab Forum | The Beatles Bible

I downloaded some Department of Justice data. I haven’t been able to dig into it yet, but I’m confident Chapman will have served more then the average. And Zig, I know this is pedantic, but I have to correct your error.

Zig said

The person that killed John Lennon in front of his wife in cold blood is getting exactly what a jury of his peers sentenced him to – 20 years to “life”.

You are not sentenced by a jury; the judge handles all sentencing. In fact, seeing as how he plead guilty to second degree murder, no jury was ever involved. So he is not “getting exactly what a jury of his peers sentenced him to”.
(Yes, that was truly nitpicky. I don’t care).

LTJX said 

Let’s see, you don’t care about being nitpicky, and I don’t care if Chapman has to spend the rest of his life in prison.  

I’m fine with that.

And I care even less if his sentence is way above average: Good! I’m glad!  It should be, because his horrible crime was way above average.  I also don’t care if who he killed is a major factor in his punishment.  He killed someone who made life better, more interesting and more enjoyable for millions of people around the world.  His sentence was 20 years to life, and that includes the possibility of serving life in prison, does it not?

Yes, it does. But it doesn’t mean it must be a life sentence, does it?

 His sentence didn’t say anything about depending on a comparison with the average murder sentence.  And going before a judge or jury was entirely Chapman’s choice, he chose a plea bargain.  Besides, Judges are often bound by strict sentencing guidelines anyway.  Chapman got more rights than he really deserved – IMO he deserved hanging and I would have been glad to help string him up right on the spot of his evil and pointless deed (“get a rope…”).  

Unfortunately, the US Constitution disagrees. The Fifth Amendment is more important then your petty beliefs

Why did Chapman have to use lethal, exploding ammunition – some have described them as “dum-dum bullets” – a type that was even banned by the Geneva convention for use in war, because they caused such horrible wounds!  Lennon might have had a chance at the hospital, but the ammunition Chapman selected and used closed off any real possibility of survival, and Lennon didn’t even get near the hospital while still alive.  Chapman is an evil punk, who should suffer for his abominable crime.

32 years in prison isn’t suffering? I’m not denying Chapman’s an ass, but to deny he hasn’t suffered is to reject facts.

And what’s with all these people saying Lennon was no better than anyone else?  Of course he was better than almost everyone else.  And the Beatles as a creative group were much more talented and influential than 99.999% of the people of who have ever lived. The fact that we are all still talking about him 32 years after he was brutally and senselessly murdered is pretty good proof of that.

We are saying he is legally no more important then anyone else. Therefore, his killer can’t be given excessive punishment due to his victim (8th Amendment to the US Constitution)

 If everyone is equal, then why don’t you post some of the great songs you’ve composed and recorded… — No? I didn’t think so.  Well, Lennon had more than a few of those great songs to his credit (not to mention his books, film and art), so you’ve got lots of catching up to do (we all do) if you’re going to maintain the fantasy of total equality that is.

I’ve never made that claim – don’t make me laugh. I know John was a special man – but in terms of judicial actions, he is no different.

Now, deal with what I actually said, instead of inventing claims.

Whether or not who you kill should affect your sentence is a argument to be had (I don’t support it, personally), but it is established legal doctrine that all men are equal. Zig said it well when he said he killed a human being who was also John Lennon . That is how he is viewed.

LTJX said

mr. Sun king coming together said
Unfortunately, the US Constitution disagrees. The Fifth Amendment is more important then your petty beliefs

I try not to cultivate petty beliefs, but I don’t think the 5th Amendment is even relevant in this case.  Chapman was indicted by a Grand Jury, he was not forced to testify against himself (I don’t believe he testified at all) and he was not put in a double jeopardy situation.  I said he should have been executed, and that has always been an accepted form of punishment for murder under American statute and legal tradition.  Chapman could have been legally executed as long as they had first convened a Grand Jury and then tried him for 1st Degree Murder, which it obviously was.  The 2nd degree plea bargain was a sham compromise by a timid and/or lazy DA.  In truth, it was a cold-blooded, highly-premeditated, planned killing than did not involve any “heat of the moment” or “passion of infidelity” issues or even the most far-fetched suggestion of “self-defense” – all factors which are sometimes seen as mitigating murder and assault.  Therefore, I believe it’s quite proper that the Parole Commission (or whatever it’s called) in denying his release, describes Chapman’s awful crime in the 1st Degree Murder language that is absolutely accurate in reality; if not in the abstract technicalities of the bogus plea bargain deal.  He shot a completely innocent man in the back not once, but 5 times!, using a form of explosive ammunition that Chapman specifically selected for its infamous reputation of producing especially horrible and deadly wounds in its victims.  

If you really think that everyone is legally equal, maybe you just haven’t seen enough of how the real world works behind the scenes.  

Honestly, I’m not even seeing why I put in the part about the fifth amendment. It does seem very However beside the point.

About the legally equal: I must be an idealist. I see no reason to have who you kill dictate sentence length, and obviously you disagree. 

Death penalty: It is obviously a practice that has been used in very similar circumstances (Jack Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald’s killer, was sentenced to it. He died of lung cancer before he could be executed, but it is still a perfectly valid resource). I however, don’t support it, but that’s besides the point.

 

 We are saying he is legally no more important then anyone else. Therefore, his killer can’t be given excessive punishment due to his victim (8th Amendment to the US Constitution)

Correction: the 8th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says only the following:

“Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”

As you can see above, the 8th Amendment says nothing about “excessive punishment” as you claim it does.  It prohibits “cruel and unusual punishments” and it says absolutely NOTHING about the identity of the victim not being considered.  That’s a legal concept you have proposed, not the Constitution.  There is nothing especially cruel or unusual about Chapman’s sentence, even if it lasts his entire lifetime.  All imprisonment is cruel.  In this case, it’s meant to be.

If I may quote Justice William Brennan (Furman v Georgia, 1972): 

The test, then, will ordinarily be a cumulative one: if a punishment is unusually severe, if there is a strong probability that it is inflicted arbitrarily, if it is substantially rejected by contemporary society, and if there is no reason to believe that it serves any penal purpose more effectively than some less severe punishment, then the continued infliction of that punishment violates the command of the Clause that the State may not inflict inhuman and uncivilized punishments upon those convicted of crimes.”

I maintain that allows cruel and unusual (the wording of the Constitution) to equal excessive punishment. I meant to say cruel and unusual, but i wrote excessive, hoping to get the same point across. Point taken on identity.

Edit: I’m very pleased we can continue on a pleasant path, at least in tone. I’d much prefer to continue this discussion in a civil tone, as it makes everything better. Welcome to the forum, by the way.