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Mark David Chapman
30 July 2015
7.51am
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Starr Shine?
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ahdn_paul_06 If he repented then he would then have to go to purgatory to wash the sins off himself.

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30 July 2015
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If you believe in purgatory, then yes.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

30 July 2015
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Sorry.......Despite it's blood thirsty nature we didn't actually have Hell in the Old testament .......It wasn't until Jesus meek and mild that we got eternal damnation......Thought control in this world and if there's another one then that one as well.........Looking forward to a celestial North Korea is not my cup of ambrosia!

In any case, who has Jesus not forgiven?

I overstated things with the 'party' comment and Pepperish is right to take me to task. I'm sure that really no one on this board would celebrate Chapman's release.......Some others will though.

I'm afraid I don't have the comfort faith must give to those who have it........I don't believe saying saying a few words puts everything right. I don't believe that out of all the thousands of similar virgin births......This god is the one and that god is not. That Odin or Zeus  are childish fairy tales the Jesus story is nothing like that.

What helps other people is great for them...........But if so called repentance in the name of any faith mitigates Chapman or his ilk from their crimes count me out. 

The Pope stopped selling indulgences a while back....they've found better fund raising activities. 

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O Boogie, Beatlebug
30 July 2015
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Jesus did not teach or believe in Hell. In fact, there was no doctrine of Hell for the first 500 years of the church's existence.

The following words were translated as Hell by the translators of the Bible:

Gehenna (the word most commonly used by Jesus): The garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where trash and the bodies of criminals burned in a perpetual fire.

Tartarus: A place where Angels went to be judged.

Hades: The Greek underworld.

Sheol: The Jewish underworld.

Had these words been translated properly we would have no concept of Hell.

Hell is actually an Old English word that means "hole in the ground." Our modern concept of Hell was developed by St. Augustine and borrowed from the Zoroastrian religion. Augustine had deep guilt for his sexual excesses, and was the inventor of the concept of "Original Sin." Augustine taught that sin was passed on to children through the sex act, and was contained in the semen.

None of this was taught or believed by Jesus Christ, who was a Jew.

Jesus came to bring "life more abundantly" to all people. The Bible says "all mankind will see God 's salvation." It also says "In Christ will all be made alive."

These concepts were largely ignored by the Church Fathers, who created Hell as a means of controlling the populace.

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30 July 2015
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Their is more to christian religion then one book

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30 July 2015
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Annadog40 said

Their is more to christian religion then one book

Correct...there are the books written by the cloud of witnesses of Saints and Church Fathers. There are also the anti-Nicene Fathers, who wrote before the Creeds of the Church were developed. Then there are the Gnostic sects.

I believe that we should take what is useful from these books and leave the rest. We could get into a theological debate about whether the teachings of the Church are infallible since the Holy Spirit leads its affairs. Personally, I think the Church is a social institution like any other, and therefore susceptible to power and corruption. Personal revelation is, to me, more important.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

30 July 2015
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Wigwam said

Sorry.......Despite it's blood thirsty nature we didn't actually have Hell in the Old testament .......It wasn't until Jesus meek and mild that we got eternal damnation......Thought control in this world and if there's another one then that one as well.........Looking forward to a celestial North Korea is not my cup of ambrosia!

In any case, who has Jesus not forgiven?

I overstated things with the 'party' comment and Pepperish is right to take me to task. I'm sure that really no one on this board would celebrate Chapman's release.......Some others will though.

I'm afraid I don't have the comfort faith must give to those who have it........I don't believe saying saying a few words puts everything right. I don't believe that out of all the thousands of similar virgin births......This god is the one and that god is not. That Odin or Zeus  are childish fairy tales the Jesus story is nothing like that.

What helps other people is great for them...........But if so called repentance in the name of any faith mitigates Chapman or his ilk from their crimes count me out. 

The Pope stopped selling indulgences a while back....they've found better fund raising activities. 

And Wigwam, I have no problem with those who worship Odin or Zeus. As St. Augustine said, the true religion has existed since the beginning of time and only recently began to be called Christian. In many ways, Christianity is only paganism refashioned.

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30 July 2015
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castironshore said
If chapman had murdered some ordinary joe from the streets he would be long released, lets be honest about it. 

I disagree. It was first degree murder, with conspiracy (imo), although he plead to and was convicted of 2nd degree. I don't think he would have been "long released" regardless of who he was and who he killed - although I suspect he'll be in longer than the "ordinary joe" would. I have my doubts that Yoko and Sean are would be in danger. Like I said before, I'd much rather see him held for life for his own safety than have a fellow Beatlemaniac end up in jail for doing what someone would definitely do to him if he were set free. Despite the whole peace & love attitude of the Beatles, one of us would betray that creed and do him in, without a doubt. And I'm ashamed to say that I'd be glad, and even better if the person put him to a long, tortuous death 🙁 Something like Ramsay Bolton did to Theon Greyjoy, only eventually finishing him off. God I can't believe I just wrote that...

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30 July 2015
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If a Beatles fan was going to murder MDC like that, they should be in jail anyway.

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30 July 2015
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Matt Busby
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Annadog40 said
If a Beatles fan was going to murder MDC like that, they should be in jail anyway.

And that's the main point I was trying to make - I don't want to see a another fan go to jail, regardless of how justified I'd feel he was. And again I want to emphasize that it shames me that I feel the way I do towards the devil's left hand.

Half of what I say is meaningless...

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30 July 2015
12.44pm
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What on earth is a fan going to gain from killing Chapman aside from wrecking yet more lives? How on earth does that do anything for Chapman killing John back in December 1980? I dont particularly want Chapman out but neither do i want someone going and getting revenge in the name of John's murder. 

As for the religion the only person you have to worry about with your faith is yourself. What others believe in is up to them. As to which faith is right what gives anyone the right to say they are correct and someone else is not.

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30 July 2015
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Come to think about it, he'd rot more in the outside world than in jail. Having to look over your shoulder, constantly. That would be a pretty rotten existence. 

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For tomorrow may rain, so I'll follow the Sun

30 July 2015
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I say next time let the guy on parole cause he already got his fame so he doesn't have insensitive to kill and plus he could be a magnet for murderous Beatles fans so they can be stopped before they kill other people.

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30 July 2015
4.50pm
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^^^True. If some Beatlemaniac(s) would be crazy enough to kill Chapman if/when he is given parole, then they are just as deranged as he is.

"If people could only know each other, they would neither idolize nor hate." - Elbert Hubbard

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30 July 2015
5.28pm
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To Pepp3rish, I wouldn't say the two things would be exactly the same; the Beatles fan who would shoot Chapman would be doing so out of righteous rage & revenge for a horrible, heinous act already perpetrated by Chapman.  Chapman, on the other hand, had absolutely no reason at all to so brutally rip Lennon out of his life, Yoko's life, and all our lives.  So no, the two would not be equally deranged.

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30 July 2015
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Fuck Chapman, he deserves everything he gets in my opinion. 

No murderer should ever be allowed out of prison. You took a life, you stay in there for the rest of yours. 

30 July 2015
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Pineapple Records said
To Pepp3rish, I wouldn't say the two things would be exactly the same; the Beatles fan who would shoot Chapman would be doing so out of righteous rage & revenge for a horrible, heinous act already perpetrated by Chapman.  Chapman, on the other hand, had absolutely no reason at all to so brutally rip Lennon out of his life, Yoko's life, and all our lives.  So no, the two would not be equally deranged.

I respect your opinion.

According to me, anyone who is willing to wreck their life or their families, and God knows what else for a person who didn't even know they existed, and probably wouldn't have given 2 hoots about them even if he knew, that's just senseless.

Equally deranged doesn't mean they are deranged in the same way, they are just deranged in their own ways.

 

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30 July 2015
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Wigwam
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Pineapple Records said
To Pepp3rish, I wouldn't say the two things would be exactly the same; the Beatles fan who would shoot Chapman would be doing so out of righteous rage & revenge for a horrible, heinous act already perpetrated by Chapman.  Chapman, on the other hand, had absolutely no reason at all to so brutally rip Lennon out of his life, Yoko's life, and all our lives.  So no, the two would not be equally deranged.

I agree not equally deranged but a fan that went after Chapman would be deranged all right......perhaps even more deranged. I wouldn't weep over Chapman if he was shot with hollow nosed bullets signing a copy of his autobiography outside a chip shop......but I wouldn't laud his killer. 

Having slept on this.....I feel it's better not to upset anyone regarding the way they see the world....ie, through stained glass spectacles. It's a view and who knows you may be right. What's a fact though is that no amount of 'discussion' would 'altar' (Freudian slip) anyone's belief........ And really there's no point to stirring things up.....

And talking of being stirred up I recognise that I need to calm down.......There are two people mentioned on this board that get me riled........Both of them were stalkers and both of them stalked John..........Both of them got their man.   

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30 July 2015
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Sure Wigwam; I wasn't condoning the idea of killing Chapman.  While it could well be deranged for a fan to do it, I wouldn't say it would necessarily be deranged, if it was out of extreme distress.  It would still be wrong, but not deranged.  Anyway, these are fine points, and I realize not everyone shares my interest in nitpicking philosophizing -- or the fine, lost art of casuistry -- here's a good book on it: 

https://books.google.com/books.....TiJgiWcqQC)

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30 July 2015
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Thanks P3pperish; that makes sense.

A ginger sling with a pineapple heart,

a coffee dessert, yes you know it's good news...

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