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"Bed-in for peace" - Stupid or Genius?
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robert
415 Posts
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28 February 2014 - 11.18pm

Into the Sky with Diamonds said

Who doesn't want peace? It's just that everyone wants it on their terms.

 

Slightly off topic - but here is where people get confused - do people want peace or freedom? It's easy to have peace with no freedom (North Korea for example)  - but freedom always takes a war to achieve - sad but true.

"She looks more like him than I do."

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Ron Nasty
5556 Posts
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28 February 2014 - 11.47pm

Not strictly true. The former Soviet block all gained freedom without war, and many of them - East Germany, Hungary, Poland, etc., found where they wanted to be in the world without a shot being fired. Yes, unfortunately, some did descend into ethnic violence, but that was largely in those countries that had been constructed in the 20th Century. And in recent years, again unfortunately, we have seen Russia flexing its muscles about countries that must not leave its sphere of influence (Georgia, Ukraine) and move towards Western Europe.

Those cases, however, do not change my basic point that war is not always to gain freedom.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

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robert
415 Posts
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1 March 2014 - 7.09pm

Not strictly true. The former Soviet block all gained freedom without war, and many of them - East Germany, Hungary, Poland, etc., found where they wanted to be in the world without a shot being fired. Yes, unfortunately, some did descend into ethnic violence, but that was largely in those countries that had been constructed in the 20th Century. And in recent years, again unfortunately, we have seen Russia flexing its muscles about countries that must not leave its sphere of influence (Georgia, Ukraine) and move towards Western Europe. Those cases, however, do not change my basic point that war is not always to gain freedom.

 

Not to be argumentative - but the idea that the USSR fell without a shot being fired is a US/Western Europe construct (and I'm from the US). I am fairly sure that the thousands upon thousands of people who fought Soviet oppression and died fighting for their freedom for over 80 years (the Polish Solidarity movement, Yugoslavia, Afghans, East Germans, Czechoslovakians, Serbs, Croatians etc., - not mention Russian dissidents) would beg to differ.

I agree that war is not always to gain freedom, however it is sad but true that freedom is never gained without bloodshed. Into the Sky with Diamonds said "Who doesn't want peace? It's just that everyone wants it on their terms."

Which is why I made the distinction between whether people want freedom or peace. Even John Lennon himself ultimately understood this which is why he "fought" (there's all types of wars) to stay in the US - even though he felt his life was at risk. If he'd just wanted peace he could have gone back to England, but what he really wanted was freedom - artistic and otherwise.

 

"She looks more like him than I do."

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Ron Nasty
5556 Posts
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1 March 2014 - 7.48pm

I should have said barely a shot, and I did intend to, don't know how that got lost! However, my point was that it doesn't always take a war.

If we zoom in on just one, East Germany. Yes, many East Germans died seeking freedom, however there was no war needed when East Germany gained freedom and the two halves unified. The same goes for, in their time, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Poland. They may all have had freedom movements suppressed, with Poland being the most recent of them at the time, but they were not at the time they gained freedom.

Obviously, Czechoslovakia is a slightly different case as the Czechs and Slovaks didn't come of gaining their freedom without bloodshed - but I recognised that.

My point was, history aside, how many people died in the 1989/1990 move from Soviet domination to democracy in East Germany, Hungary and Poland? And what WAR was there, in those examples at that time?

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

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robert
415 Posts
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2 March 2014 - 12.04pm

My point was, history aside, how many people died in the 1989/1990 move from Soviet domination to democracy in East Germany, Hungary and Poland? And what WAR was there, in those examples at that time?

 

And my point is that the time frame we should be looking at is from about 1950 - 1990 - that was the length of what we call the "Cold War". 1989/1990 is the date of the end of that war. That is actually the surrender of the war - not the war itself.

"She looks more like him than I do."

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fabfouremily
Sitting in an English garden
2929 Posts
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2 March 2014 - 3.23pm

Though it's good to discuss important subjects, perhaps we should keep this to a more appropriate thread? (here, for example: http://www.beatlesbible.com/fo.....ad-thread/ )

Moving along in our God given ways, safety is sat by the fire/Sanctuary from these feverish smiles, left with a mark on the door.

(Passover - I. Curtis)

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Musketeer Gripweed
Coldspring Harbor, NY
249 Posts
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6 March 2014 - 10.36pm

MJA love the video post, it gave people a great way to voice there opinion in a peaceful manner as opposed to rioting. It wasn't meant to be genius or anything, it was meant to promote an opinion or idea which it was successful of. This was a confusing time for the people of the entire world. A time when anti-establishment was growing throughout the entire world. People were very confused and weren't sure what to do. Like Berkley was an example of protesting/control gone wrong. John is just promoting that if action is going to be taken by either side pro-war or anti, that it should be attempted in a peaceful manner. So in retrospect I think it was great PR work on Johns part and provided an amazing medium for people to voice opinion.It is also showing people you don't have to just protest by marching the streets, that there are other ways to protest. I think they also handled the media frenzy that ensued the bed-in, the best way possible. Also the media were panning John and Yoko at the time, so he gave them a twist if there gonna be covering me anyway why not promote peace.  This is a great documentary on the Toronto Bed In. 

 

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