Please consider registering
Guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
Announcement: Changes to All Together Now
5 March 2018
6.18am
Avatar
Joe
Pepperland
Admin
Forum Posts: 5039
Member Since:
31 March 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi everyone.

I'm going to make some changes to the forum in the coming days. This follows extensive discussions with the mod team, and I wanted to give everyone else here enough warning and the opportunity to have your say.

For a while now we've felt that the All Together Now section (ATN ) is a bit out of control. I know the whole point originally was to discuss anything and everything non-Beatles, but we've increasingly felt that it's overrun with chatter about other music, current affairs, politics, sports, and personal matters. It sometimes seems like The Beatles are a sideshow to the rest of the broader forum.

On the subject of music alone, there are many, many threads and posts on non-Beatles songs, albums, artists, concerts and so on. Then there are the posts on people's height, cars, languages spoken, food, films, TV shows, books, dreams, philosophy, and pretty much everything else. It's become much harder to manage and moderate, and has meant we've had to keep across a number of discussions in which we may have little or no interest. We came here to chat about The Beatles, stayed for a cuppa and a biscuit, but didn't anticipate that a large multi-purpose town hall would be built around our table and chairs.

There are more suitable places for those sorts of discussions elsewhere on the net – either on specialist forums or broader communities like Facebook, or even on the PM system here. So we've decided to make some changes to ATN , to bring the focus back to The Beatles – the original and still core purpose of the forum.

a-hard-days-night-paul-7blue-meanie stay-on-topic

We're not proposing to stop all non-Beatles discussions, but we are going to limit the number of threads in ATN . Only the mod team will be able to create new ones in the section (note: this does not apply to the rest of the Fab Forum).

The list of open ATN threads will be (tbc):

We're still going to allow people to introduce themselves, wish others a happy birthday or holiday, commemorate those lost, and discuss what's happening in their lives. The "Incredibly Impossible to Derail This Thread" thread will remain the catch-all place for making off-topic chat on-topic.

Some Beatles-related threads are being moved from ATN to the relevant forum section (most likely Yesterday And Today). Some ATN discussions are about this site, so will probably move to Getting Better.

Other than that, we'd like this to be a Beatles forum first and foremost. So in a week or so, all the other ATN threads will be moved to a new archive section, locked and made read-only.

beatlemaniacs_02_gif

Please bear in mind that these decisions were not made lightly, and each aspect was debated fairly extensively. I know it won't be popular, but we have to do it for our sanity's sake. A while ago we had to put a stop to the many, many non-Beatles games on the forum. There were grumbles when the change came, but people managed to carry on. I hope the same will eventually happen here.

We also know that change is rarely popular, and some will choose to leave the forum rather than remain on a more Beatles-focused place. We're sorry to lose people, but we hope that as the site grows and new users come the quality of discussions will not overly suffer.

One thing we haven't managed to work out is whether we can accommodate a single thread for non-Beatles music. My fear is that it'll swiftly become 100+ pages long, there'll be a lot of repetition, and it'll descend into a bit of a mess. Ideas welcome.

The mods and I are happy to discuss any and all of this, and will read every comment. Please don't sling too much hate our way.

heart

The following people thank Joe for this post:

meanmistermustard, SgtPeppersBulldog, Evangeline, Zig

Can buy me love! Please consider using these links to support the Beatles Bible: Amazon | iTunes
Or buy my paperback/ebook! Riding So High – The Beatles and Drugs

Don't miss The Bowie Bible – now live!

5 March 2018
7.40am
Avatar
Ron Nasty
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 9190
Member Since:
17 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hugely disappointed by your decision, @Joe. You've just taken away the reason many people spend so much time here, without actually closing down any avenue of conversation (we can just stick it in the derail thread, though many of those locked threads were created because the derail was getting too clogged and it was thought certain things deserved their own threads so subjects someone might not be interested wasn't shoved down their throat, but now, comments on gun control and what arses some Americans on the subject, goes in the derail thread, record I'm listening to, goes in the derail thread, food I'm eating, goes into the derail thread, and it reverts back to the same ugly mess that other threads were originally created to deal with).

I don't doubt you've made @Zig a very happy bunny, thinking it will go back so some mythical forum that never truly existed. This forum has had a strong social element since I joined it back in god knows when. The majority of your current users joined because of that social element, and how it was conducted, as well as The Beatles.

Much of the Beatles conversation comes from people who come here to socialise, and having that taken away gives less reason to check in as much, and so less Beatles conversation.

I have no intention of leaving the forum (sorry, Zig) but will be a less frequent visitor. I'm taking my social conversation across to @Starr Shine?'s forum, where silly restrictions to curtail the conversation are hopefully not going to be imposed, and hoping that others who have enjoyed the social aspect you have provided for so long will join me.

A decision debated with three people, only one of whom I imagine defended the status quo. You suggest it's up for debate now, but you're not going to reverse this decision, no matter how many of us object and tell you you're losing a vital aspect of the forum, and how important that aspect of the forum has been to so many of us.

A sad day for the forum, but hopefully we can all carry on here. Sorry I'll be spending less time here, and that no longer is there a reason to have this site open all the time, but there's no point arguing or being upset. It is what it is, and will have the effect it does.

This is not like, as Zig likes to say, something changing colour; it's disowning much of the behaviour of a child because you don't like how it's growing up. Such a shame, because I thought the forum was growing up into special. We'll just have to take that special elsewhere and drop in here once or twice a week.

Sad days indeed (most peculiar, Mama!).

The following people thank Ron Nasty for this post:

Beatlebug, The Hole Got Fixed, WeepingAtlasCedars, Little Piggy Dragonguy

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

5 March 2018
8.11am
Avatar
Starr Shine?
Waiting in the sky
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 15558
Member Since:
1 November 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I can see the derail thread ending up more like a slower chat room/box. Kinda takes the comradery out of the forum for me. I feel this will make the Beatles bible not unlike those soulless tech support forums where people make accounts to ask one question then bleep off never to return. I know if there wasn't a general discussion, I would of left this site long ago.

This is a forum where users got together and rebuilt a thread from archives and google catches. I doubt that would of ever happened without ATN existing as a place for us all to get to know each other.

Also, may end of the year awards remain if changed to have only Beatles related categories? Maybe rename it the toppermost of the poppermost?

The following people thank Starr Shine? for this post:

Beatlebug, AppleScruffJunior

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

Brainwashed by RadiantCowbells.

If you can't log in and can't use the forum go here and someone will help you out.

5 March 2018
8.19am
Avatar
Ron Nasty
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 9190
Member Since:
17 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Are you happy for those who feel like me to use your forum to continue the free conversation we were allowed here, @Starr Shine??

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

5 March 2018
8.25am
Avatar
Starr Shine?
Waiting in the sky
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 15558
Member Since:
1 November 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes, as long as you come back here for Beatles discussion and Beatles forum games.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

Brainwashed by RadiantCowbells.

If you can't log in and can't use the forum go here and someone will help you out.

5 March 2018
8.48am
Avatar
Joe
Pepperland
Admin
Forum Posts: 5039
Member Since:
31 March 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Ron Nasty said
it was thought certain things deserved their own threads so subjects someone might not be interested wasn't shoved down their throat, but now, comments on gun control and what arses some Americans on the subject, goes in the derail thread, record I'm listening to, goes in the derail thread, food I'm eating, goes into the derail thread, and it reverts back to the same ugly mess that other threads were originally created to deal with).

It's precisely because of the food and the what-i'm-listening-to-now threads (among others) that we're doing this. They're often inane and inward-looking, and don't really add much in the way of quality discussion. Those are the sorts of things I'd really like to see the back of, and I do think they'd fall by the wayside if we had one generic off-topic free-for-all thread.

I don't doubt you've made @Zig a very happy bunny, thinking it will go back so some mythical forum that never truly existed. This forum has had a strong social element since I joined it back in god knows when. The majority of your current users joined because of that social element, and how it was conducted, as well as The Beatles.

Much of the Beatles conversation comes from people who come here to socialise, and having that taken away gives less reason to check in as much, and so less Beatles conversation.

Maybe. Perhaps not. People came here in 2008 because it was a Beatles forum and they liked the tone and community. It was active and lively before ATN ever existed. It just contained a higher proportion of discussions about The Beatles than it does currently.

People came for the band, stayed for a chat, liked the other people, and asked to be able to discuss off-topic matters. We just want to revert the balance of the scales a little, and I'm open to suggestions on how it might be achieved.

I full well realise that many people come here for the non-Beatles chat. It's great that they've felt welcome enough to spend time here. But in the coming months I'm hoping to grow the overall traffic this site gets, and that should correlate with an increase in forum members. That would, in turn, involve many more non-Beatles discussions, all of which would have to be moderated.

I have no intention of leaving the forum (sorry, Zig) but will be a less frequent visitor. I'm taking my social conversation across to @Starr Shine?'s forum, where silly restrictions to curtail the conversation are hopefully not going to be imposed, and hoping that others who have enjoyed the social aspect you have provided for so long will join me.

And you're more than welcome to do so. As I said in my original post, there are more suitable and lively places to discuss Pink Floyd or football. Have at it.

A decision debated with three people, only one of whom I imagine defended the status quo. You suggest it's up for debate now, but you're not going to reverse this decision, no matter how many of us object and tell you you're losing a vital aspect of the forum, and how important that aspect of the forum has been to so many of us.

Hey, look, we are interested in discussing it. That's why I've created this thread. I've introduced changes before without any forewarning or discussion, and been criticised for it, so I'm doing things differently this time.

I don't think there's a way to do this and keep *everyone* happy. I'm interested in finding a middle ground, keeping my own sanity and interest, and ensuring the (unpaid, brilliant) mod team don't have an impossible task.

@Starr Shine? said
I can see the derail thread ending up more like a slower chat room/box. Kinda takes the comradery out of the forum for me. I feel this will make the Beatles bible not unlike those soulless tech support forums where people make accounts to ask one question then bleep off never to return. I know if there wasn't a general discussion, I would of left this site long ago.

That's fine. It's not possible to please everyone, and I long ago stopped attempting it. But when a hefty chunk of my own forum isn't something I'd want to spend time on, that's when I think it's time to do something. I honestly haven't done any of this in a hurry – the mod team have been discussing it on and off for months, but I've always lost my nerve and chosen inertia instead.

This is a forum where users got together and rebuilt a thread from archives and google catches. I doubt that would of ever happened without ATN existing as a place for us all to get to know each other.

It might have done. I honestly don't know. As I said before, this was a pretty lively place before ATN , but it was centred more on The Beatles than it currently is. People were loyal and passionate from year one. It might not have been YOUR ideal forum, but it was still a good place.

Also, may end of the year awards remain if changed to have only Beatles related categories? Maybe rename it the toppermost of the poppermost?

Yes, I think we can probably do that. As I said before, some discussions in ATN are either about the Beatles or this site, and can be moved into the appropriate place. We can work something out with the awards, assuming there's anyone left here to take part.

...So, given all that, does anyone have any positive suggestions on how we might make this place better?

Can buy me love! Please consider using these links to support the Beatles Bible: Amazon | iTunes
Or buy my paperback/ebook! Riding So High – The Beatles and Drugs

Don't miss The Bowie Bible – now live!

5 March 2018
9.07am
Avatar
Starr Shine?
Waiting in the sky
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 15558
Member Since:
1 November 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree about the inward threads that's one of the reasons I wasn't a fan of the listening thread.

If we are going to be shifting gears to an older more beatles centric time, bringing back that more lazzie fair additude and casualniss of the older fourm. If I was around back then, I don't doubt I'd have more fun with a more open casual style like it was in 2010.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

Brainwashed by RadiantCowbells.

If you can't log in and can't use the forum go here and someone will help you out.

5 March 2018
9.18am
Avatar
Joe
Pepperland
Admin
Forum Posts: 5039
Member Since:
31 March 2008
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

OK, one last quick post before I leave to pick up my kids from school (and I'll be back here tomorrow to answer anything else).

It seems fairly certain that we'll prevent new threads from being created in ATN , to avoid the free-for-all that we currently have ("What are you whistling right now?"; "What's your favourite colour" etc). But I would like people to chime in with suggestions on what else from the current crop we should keep.

I proposed a core set of six threads in my first post here, but if people have a burning desire for more please speak up and say which ones.

Bye for now.

Can buy me love! Please consider using these links to support the Beatles Bible: Amazon | iTunes
Or buy my paperback/ebook! Riding So High – The Beatles and Drugs

Don't miss The Bowie Bible – now live!

5 March 2018
9.30am
Avatar
Starr Shine?
Waiting in the sky
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 15558
Member Since:
1 November 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I say the Beatles Bible House thread. It is very Beatles related and is sort of like a role play where we all live together and brings many elements of Beatles songs and film to life.

The following people thank Starr Shine? for this post:

Beatlebug

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

Brainwashed by RadiantCowbells.

If you can't log in and can't use the forum go here and someone will help you out.

5 March 2018
10.06am
Avatar
Expert Textpert
In bed.
Rishikesh
Members
Forum Posts: 4333
Member Since:
18 April 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have to say I agree with the general thrust of this idea. I don’t come here to read why people think Donald Trump is a great guy, why abortion should be illegal, or why incest should be legal.

I do agree that the awards thread should be kept. 

I also think Remembering Elvis should be kept, since he was a major influence on The Beatles and they met him.

The following people thank Expert Textpert for this post:

sir walter raleigh, SgtPeppersBulldog, meanmistermustard, Zig, penny lane

"This Beatles talk bores me to death.” —John Lennon 

5 March 2018
10.18am
Avatar
sir walter raleigh
In our yellow (IN OUR YELLOW) submarine (SUBMARINE AHA!)
Rishikesh
Members
Forum Posts: 4339
Member Since:
26 January 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think several of the ATN threads about contemporaries of The Beatles are useful and relevant. Perhaps that can be an all purpose thread for bands that are connected to The Beatles and play into their history; ex: The Beach Boys , Elvis, The Rolling Stones, Dylan

The following people thank sir walter raleigh for this post:

Expert Textpert, SgtPeppersBulldog, meanmistermustard, Von Bontee, Vera Chuckandave

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

5 March 2018
10.34am
Avatar
Evangeline
1334 North Beechwood Drive
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1808
Member Since:
14 February 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Expert Textpert said
I also think Remembering Elvis should be kept, since he was a major influence on The Beatles and they met him.  

If Joe keeps it for that reason, it should be moved to the Yesterday And Today thread.

Back on topic:

One idea I might broach is that the forum could shut down most of the ATN thread for a trial period of 6 months or so. If it starts a huge backlash and the forum starts becoming empty and forlorn, ATN could be reinstated.

Also, if the problem of traversing all the ATN threads is too much for the mods we have now. There is the option of appointing more mods.

Ron Nasty, I mean, it is Joe's forum and he can do with it what he wishes. So I wouldn't fight too much for or against something that doesn't belong to you.

The following people thank Evangeline for this post:

Beatlebug, Joe, Vera Chuckandave, Little Piggy Dragonguy

I am you as you are you as you are you and you are all together. 

5 March 2018
10.46am
Avatar
Father McKenzie
Liverpool England
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1118
Member Since:
14 November 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I personally like the Beatles picture game and the 'Caption It' game also. Hopefully they are going to be staying......a-hard-days-night-paul-7

Still writing the words to the sermon that no one will hear......

5 March 2018
11.33am
Avatar
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator

Moderators

Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 17818
Member Since:
20 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Father McKenzie said
I personally like the Beatles picture game and the 'Caption It' game also. Hopefully they are going to be staying......a-hard-days-night-paul-7  

Those will go over my dead *mod* body. a-hard-days-night-ringo-6

The Elvis one could be one to keep and move to Yesterday and Today. Without Elvis, the Beatles wouldn't have been according to John Lennon .

I wish the nesting of threads could work. We could have one "Who Influenced The Beatles" thread with categories under it. You were working on threaded replies last May. If you can get that to work, is that a direction you would want to go, Joe?

We have a few Elvis threads https://www.beatlesbible.com/f.....;include=2

The following people thank Ahhh Girl for this post:

Father McKenzie
5 March 2018
11.39am
Avatar
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator

Moderators

Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 17818
Member Since:
20 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

sir walter raleigh said
I think several of the ATN threads about contemporaries of The Beatles are useful and relevant. Perhaps that can be an all purpose thread for bands that are connected to The Beatles and play into their history; ex: The Beach Boys , Elvis, The Rolling Stones, Dylan  

This reply goes with my previous one. How can we keep some sort of coherence if we have one big thread (if nesting doesn't pan out). How would you be able to pull the posts about Buddy Holly together when he is jumbled up with all the other people and groups?

There are no problems, only solutions...OK, John, we need one.

5 March 2018
11.46am
Avatar
meanmistermustard
Moderator
Members

Reviewers


Moderators
Forum Posts: 21974
Member Since:
1 May 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

We are mindful of the community spirit and don't want to lose that but at the same time the over-reaching desire is to keep the heart, focus and vision of the forum Beatles and that is what we are seeking in doing this. It is a Beatles forum after all and ATN is 28 pages long and growing. We do respect and want your voice to be heard regarding what goes on from here so let your views, concerns and thoughts be known and let's discuss what will make the forum better going onwards instead of what might be lost.

Father McKenzie said
I personally like the Beatles picture game and the 'Caption It' game also. Hopefully they are going to be staying......a-hard-days-night-paul-7  

The games and all other sub-forums will remain as is. We have no plans to alter them.

The following people thank meanmistermustard for this post:

Father McKenzie

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris) 

"Don't make your love suffer insecurities; Trade the baggage of 'self' to set another one free" ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)

5 March 2018
11.57am
Avatar
AppleScruffJunior
Sitting here doing nothing but procrastinating...
Apple rooftop
Reviewers

Members
Forum Posts: 5919
Member Since:
18 March 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

At the very least can the 'What Are You Reading Thread?' become 'What Beatley-Book Are You Reading?'

And so at least I have one thread to remember me by if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, 'Beatley Things We Learned Today'. 

 

Apart from that, I don't know how/if this will work but I do agree the forum was being flooded with crap like Bee Gees threads (sorry if there actually is a Bee Gees' thread, I picked a random group). 

I'm sad to see restrictions on the ATN section but I understand they were needed.

The following people thank AppleScruffJunior for this post:

Beatlebug, Father McKenzie

 

INTROVERTS UNITE! Separately....in your own homes!

                 ***

Make Love, Not Wardrobes!

                ***

"Stop throwing jelly beans at me"- George Harrison

5 March 2018
12.04pm
Avatar
Shamrock Womlbs
Waiting for the van to come
Rishikesh
Members
Forum Posts: 2790
Member Since:
24 March 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

AppleScruffJunior said

I'm sad to see restrictions on the ATN section but I understand they were needed.  

^ i agree with that.
I was wondering if the thread about William Shares campbell updates could be kept until he rejoins/finishes his adventure.

"I Need You by George Harrison"

5 March 2018
12.27pm
Avatar
Ron Nasty
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 9190
Member Since:
17 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Being a Monday, @Shamrock Womlbs, I was able to exchange a couple of emails with WSC. He's disappointed by the news, but wanting his weeklies to continue, has agreed for them to appear on SS?'s forum. sir walter will start a new thread for them there in the next couple of days. We hope you will visit to keep up with his adventures.

The following people thank Ron Nasty for this post:

SgtPeppersBulldog, sir walter raleigh, Shamrock Womlbs

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

5 March 2018
12.30pm
Avatar
SpecialCup
eating chocolate cake in a bag
Royal Command Performance
Members
Forum Posts: 231
Member Since:
1 September 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It's clear that many of the posters who strongly support the neutering of ATN will be the ones who don't post there much anyway and have no skin in the game. And those who don't like Joe's decision are more likely to be those who post a lot in ATN . I do not believe that ATN in any way keeps people from enjoying the Beatles section of the forum, as it is tucked away at the bottom of the page, and no one is forced to visit it if they aren't interested. Not sure if the intended strategy is to try to force more people onto Beatles threads if the non-Beatles threads are taken away, but it won't work. The fact is that some posters have been here a long time and have almost exhausted anything new to discuss about the Beatles (until Lewisohn vol. 2 comes out in 2035), but are still the lifeblood of this place and really come here for the social aspect, paying tribute by posting occasionally in Beatles threads. And others who are newer (like me) love the Beatles and were happy to discover other people who do too, and come back to the forum because of the genial social atmosphere. All of us who visit are helping to earn Joe ad revenue. It is going to be harder for users to get to know each other and connect socially if the discussion is restricted to Beatles and birthdays.

Joe might not be interested in posting on all the threads, but why does he need to like them all? I disagree that the forum is entirely Joe's. Yes, the site belongs to Joe, but a forum needs many active participants to survive and thrive, and it is the long time posters who have built and allowed the forum to succeed, while new blood helps keep it fresh. Because of the community built here, loyal posters have bought Joe's book, spread the word about it, and have written positive online reviews, actions which all help Joe.

Joe, I disagree that the "Listening" thread is inane and offers nothing. It is a place for posters to express themselves, have fun connecting over shared love of music, and discover new music. The other day Von Bontee posted some cool experimental piano thing I would've never been turned on to elsewhere. In any case, I think it is poor judgment to try to get rid of all music related threads or just have one mega thread. If anything, music threads are crucial to this forum. Lets be real; every person here is on this forum because of music, and the Beatles influence reaches into almost all modern popular music, so we ought to be able to talk about and share it.  And if we are going to keep the "Remembering Elvis" thread due to his influence on the Beatles, there should be room for Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, Lonnie Donegan, Little Richard, Eddie Cochran, Everly Brothers, Gene Vincent, Big Bill Broonzy, Larry Williams, Barrett Strong, Crystals, Smokey, Shirelles threads as well. If we are gonna keep Beach Boys and Stones cause they were influenced by the Beatles, then why can't we also talk about Cheap Trick, Guns n Roses, Tom Petty, Todd Rundgren, Simon and Garfunkel, ELO, etc.?

Seems to me the bottom line is that mods are burnt out and looking to cut their workload, which tells me there is a need for new or more mods, or the current ones should start getting paid a little something, then the non-Beatles threads might not seem like such a chore. This site is a mod's dream compared to any other forum out there. The community here is neither hostile nor fractious; seriously, most everyone here is respectful, even in disagreements. If someone starts a Bee Gees thread or a favorite fart thread and no one posts on it, its not like it's a ton of work for mods to police it. Just let it fall down to the bottom, and clean up as needed. But gutting ATN entirely seems drastic.

The following people thank SpecialCup for this post:

penny lane, Evangeline, Beatlebug, sir walter raleigh, Father McKenzie, The Hole Got Fixed, Von Bontee, Shamrock Womlbs, WeepingAtlasCedars, BeatleSnut, Vera Chuckandave

"Life is good; life is wonderful, and with friends like these, who needs life?"

Forum Timezone: America/Chicago
Most Users Ever Online: 597
Currently Online: Kaniffee
1
Guest(s)
Top Posters:
Starr Shine?: 15558
Beatlebug: 14126
Ron Nasty: 9190
Necko: 7838
parlance: 7111
mr. Sun king coming together: 6403
The Hole Got Fixed: 6306
Mr. Kite: 6148
trcanberra: 6045
50yearslate: 5961
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 87
Members: 2662
Moderators: 4
Admins: 2
Forum Stats:
Groups: 3
Forums: 44
Topics: 4708
Posts: 316194
Newest Members:
Lissa, JAIME, Her Majesty, paulmccsassy, steenbergentom
Moderators: Joe: 5039, Zig: 9806, meanmistermustard: 21974, Ahhh Girl: 17818
Administrators: Joe: 5039, Ellie: 4