Please consider registering
Guest
sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

8   +   8   =  
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
George Harrison should have had a bigger role in The Beatles
21 January 2016
1.06pm
Avatar
Derek_Francis
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 119
Member Since:
20 January 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

He was slowly developing as a songwriter.  It's a shame that just when he was at his peak in Abbey Road , the group disbanded.  It was practically a crime to limit such a soulful singer and great guitarist to just 2 songs per album.  What I would have done: after The White Album , they should have had a more equal split in songwriting: 30% George, 30% John, 30% Paul, 10% Ringo.

Lennon brought the Beatles into the psychedelic phase when there was a clear need for a change in direction.  Likewise, I think The Beatles were starting to get some inertia at the end tip of their career.  Paul's late-Beatles songs were hit and miss ; very few of them drove the band in a bold new direction.  George coming in and totally changing up the sound could have given them the boost they needed for a few more albums.

Plus, giving Harrison a lead role would have eased the tensions in the band.  First, it would give him less motivation to want to mount a solo career so soon.  He likely would have cooperated more with Ringo to make sure he was valued and put an end to the granny-music that drove Lennon away.

The following people thank Derek_Francis for this post:

pepperland
21 January 2016
3.18pm
Avatar
pepperland
vanished in the haze
Hollywood Bowl
Members
Forum Posts: 732
Member Since:
3 August 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree that George deserved more songs on their albums but if he did, we certainly wouldn't have the masterpiece All Things Must Pass (at least in the form that it is today). 

The following people thank pepperland for this post:

Beatlebug

Times I find it hard to say / With useless words getting in my waySuprised about this one.Sad about this one

21 January 2016
3.27pm
Avatar
natureaker
Blue Jay Way
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1477
Member Since:
28 July 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I agree that George should've got more songs on the albums. But, at the beginning, he never wrote songs, and didn't start writing songs until I believe 1964 (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, he did write lots at some point, but I'm pretty sure he was fine with how much stuff he had on an album. I believe he stated something like "I had my share of songs on one or two albums, but I wasn't really tied down (not able to have songs on their albums). John and Paul were the main songwriters, and that's just how it was".

So yes, I agree that he should've had a little more songs, but I don't think he would've really wanted more of a "lead role", as you would say. He enjoyed playing instruments and occasionally singing, and he just kept on doing what he was doing, y'know? a-hard-days-night-george-9

The following people thank natureaker for this post:

pepperland, Beatlebug, KaleidoscopeMusic, Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<
21 January 2016
3.33pm
Avatar
pepperland
vanished in the haze
Hollywood Bowl
Members
Forum Posts: 732
Member Since:
3 August 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

natureaker said
But, at the beginning, he never wrote songs, and didn't start writing songs until I believe 1964 (correct me if I'm wrong).

1963 with Don't Bother Me . (Well, you told me to correct you) a-hard-days-night-john-6

The following people thank pepperland for this post:

Beatlebug, natureaker

Times I find it hard to say / With useless words getting in my waySuprised about this one.Sad about this one

21 January 2016
3.49pm
Avatar
meanmistermustard
Here when I am. Not when I am not.
Moderator
Members

Reviewers


Moderators
Forum Posts: 23245
Member Since:
1 May 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

George took longer to match the level of output to rival Paul and/or John; his desire at the beginning was to play guitar and songwriting only came about when he saw the royalties John and Paul were making and thought if they could so could he. He started getting more of a backlog in the mid-60's but I don't know to what level exactly - a few titles are bandied around as coming from then but were they finished to the same standard that he eventually released?

As John said it was hard as even tho he and Paul saw George was matching them by even 1968 in terms of quality their egos meant they were never going to let him get that space.

I think personally that overall George had a pretty big role in the Beatles its just less pronounced, reported and expressed.

The following people thank meanmistermustard for this post:

Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<, O Boogie

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

21 January 2016
3.49pm
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 17260
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Even though it kind of sucked for George, I'm rather glad it happened the way it did. It pushed George to become a better songwriter and I like George's solo career so a-hard-days-night-paul-11 I mean, All Things Must Pass ... nuff said a-hard-days-night-john-6

The following people thank Beatlebug for this post:

KaleidoscopeMusic, Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<

~ Ram On ~
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
ScotsIrishFlag-1.jpeg Blueberries1.png Vietnam Heritage and Freedom Flag
StarSpangledBanner.png

21 January 2016
5.28pm
Avatar
KaleidoscopeMusic
Ed Sullivan Show
Members
Forum Posts: 481
Member Since:
2 November 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If you look at Abbey Road , it's pretty much what it would be like if Ringo and George had been given equal roles to John and Paul. It's the first time you hear an actual drum solo and having more than one single for George (if I'm getting my history right). Musically and as a group, they hit their peak here. The result was a matured group with more introspective music than singing a typical song. They could do this because they were so famous and managed to keep people's interest where it would wane elsewhere.

Paul and John were obviously the best vocally, had the best stage-presence, and were the best writers in the beginning. George was younger and Ringo played the drums. Naturally, this was what crowds wanted to see. However, George could probably compose the best guitar accompaniments and could have been better with his instrumental skills. But as we all know, in the real world, skill doesn't always come out on top. It's what people want to see--and hear; people want to hear words, and I don't blame them. I enjoy seeing John and Paul in the forefront because I think they handle it the best.

As they became more popular, there is absolutely no reason John and Paul shouldn't have given George a more prominent role in the band. I don't know about an "equal" role, but they should have encouraged him to write more singles because he was more than capable. John and Paul are great at churning out lyrics and chords, but you can see from Abbey Road that George had equal songwriting abilities (but perhaps couldn't compete with the quantities; not that he was given a chance). 

What happens to George happens too often. It's hard, in any "business," to accurately give credit where it is due. I feel for the guy, but at least he was competing against the best musicians in the world and not some unprofessional, asinine buffoons.

The following people thank KaleidoscopeMusic for this post:

Beatlebug

Only music can save us.

21 January 2016
6.40pm
Avatar
meanmistermustard
Here when I am. Not when I am not.
Moderator
Members

Reviewers


Moderators
Forum Posts: 23245
Member Since:
1 May 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Only one single for George @KaleidoscopeMusic. 'Here Comes The Sun ' was a standout album track but the only single was the double a-side 'Something ' c/w 'Come Together '. Unless it was released in some country elsewhere where the Beatles didnt have either a say or a clue in its release.

The following people thank meanmistermustard for this post:

Beatlebug, KaleidoscopeMusic

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

21 January 2016
6.43pm
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 17260
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very good points, @KaleidoscopeMusic. However, as it happens, you're not getting your history right: Something was George's only A-side single with the Beatles. Here Comes The Sun wasn't a single, though it's quite famous enough. a-hard-days-night-john-6

The following people thank Beatlebug for this post:

KaleidoscopeMusic

~ Ram On ~
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
ScotsIrishFlag-1.jpeg Blueberries1.png Vietnam Heritage and Freedom Flag
StarSpangledBanner.png

25 January 2016
6.14pm
castironshore
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 136
Member Since:
12 May 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Harrisons personality kind of held him back a bit.... i'm not sure a bigger role would have suited him,john and paul were both very dominant and it would have taken a huge effort to challenge that especially in the touring years. I think in a lot of ways he played it just right and learned his craft quietly in the background.

From what i can gather george was choked with resentment at not being included in the songwriting process with john and paul. I can see both points of view on that one.

The following people thank castironshore for this post:

KaleidoscopeMusic, I was the walrus, Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<
27 January 2016
3.42am
Avatar
Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<
the Netherlands
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1435
Member Since:
27 March 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'm not so sure John and Paul 'ought' to have done anything, to be honest. 

The roles within the Beatles were clear from day 1, and everyone seemed to be happy with that. And then, after doing the bulk of the work for years, John and Paul are expected to make room for a third captain, when having two was complicated enough? Just because George wanted to change the rules in his favour, doesn't mean the others were required to go along with it. 

I can see George's point of view, I certainly can. I can also see why John and Paul didn't feel the need to take a step back. And let's not forget that as lead guitarist, George already held a crucial position in the band. Just because he wasn't one of the main songwriters, doesn't mean his contribution was less important. He was, after all, one of the main vocalists, and his guitar playing was largely responsible for the Fabs' sound. 

He may have felt he played an inferior role, and the title of this topic implies it as well, but that's simply not true. Even without getting more songs, he was just as important as John and Paul, and so was Ringo.

The following people thank Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^< for this post:

Beatlebug, pepperland, KaleidoscopeMusic

Formerly Known As JPM-Fangirl --Paul-Badge.png 2016

'Out There' - 07-06-2015 - Ziggo Dome Amsterdam -- 'One On One' - 12-06-2016 - Pinkpop Festival Landgraaf

28 January 2016
4.35am
Avatar
bewareofchairs
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 166
Member Since:
18 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

JPM-Fangirl said
I'm not so sure John and Paul 'ought' to have done anything, to be honest. 

The roles within the Beatles were clear from day 1, and everyone seemed to be happy with that. And then, after doing the bulk of the work for years, John and Paul are expected to make room for a third captain, when having two was complicated enough? Just because George wanted to change the rules in his favour, doesn't mean the others were required to go along with it. 

I can see George's point of view, I certainly can. I can also see why John and Paul didn't feel the need to take a step back. And let's not forget that as lead guitarist, George already held a crucial position in the band. Just because he wasn't one of the main songwriters, doesn't mean his contribution was less important. He was, after all, one of the main vocalists, and his guitar playing was largely responsible for the Fabs' sound. 

He may have felt he played an inferior role, and the title of this topic implies it as well, but that's simply not true. Even without getting more songs, he was just as important as John and Paul, and so was Ringo.

That's not entirely accurate. While it's true George became a songwriter later on, he arguably was considered more of an equal before the Lennon/McCartney brand became a thing. John and Paul relied on him to teach them chords, he pushed the band into going electric, had much more control over the guitar parts and played a big role in live performances. By 1967 he had essentially become Paul's session musician and at times wasn't needed at all. I feel like Abbey Road is the only album in that later period where George really had an opportunity to show what he could bring to the band.

Also, let's be honest, John and Paul weren't exactly at the top of their game by that point. John was having a lot of trouble coming up with songs while George was in his most prolific period. The logical step would've been to use more of George's songs, but they cared more about keeping the illusion of Lennon/McCartney going than making the best albums.

28 January 2016
6.41am
Avatar
Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<
the Netherlands
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1435
Member Since:
27 March 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You got a few things wrong there.

Paul did not rely on George to learn chords. George himself said (on record!) that Paul was always better with chords, especially the more difficult ones. They each went all over Liverpool to learn new chords, which they then would show to the others. But to say George taught Paul to play guitar, is not accurate. Don't take my word for it, check George's comments on this topic.

Paul and John weren't at the top of their game from '67 onwards? Sure, John's output was waning, but Paul did much of his best work in the final years. Saying he wasn't doing very well is just silly and untrue.

Something tells me you don't like (John and) Paul very much. That's fine, just try not to pose an opinion as fact. George was never just a session musician to anyone though he may have felt like one at times. Don't underestimate him, though. He was very much capable of voicing his opinion. He didn't just sit in a corner and sulk, he spoke his mind when he wasn't happy. And it's probably a good thing he did because he did influence the others more than once. John may have underestimated George until the day he died, but Paul never denied that George was massively important to the band. 

Perhaps we should all be a bit more like Ringo: he loved George very, very much, yet he doesn't turn him into a saint. Just this morning, I saw an interview in which Ringo repeatedly expressed that George wasn't the easiest person to work with, and he joked about George trying to work his religion into other people's songs.

Let's face it: they were all complicated, flawed people - George included. Isn't that much of their charm anyway?

The following people thank Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^< for this post:

I was the walrus, Beatlebug, KaleidoscopeMusic

Formerly Known As JPM-Fangirl --Paul-Badge.png 2016

'Out There' - 07-06-2015 - Ziggo Dome Amsterdam -- 'One On One' - 12-06-2016 - Pinkpop Festival Landgraaf

28 January 2016
8.23am
Avatar
I was the walrus
The Cavern Club
Members
Forum Posts: 77
Member Since:
21 July 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If George had a bigger role than he already did with the Beatles, well then they wouldn't have that Beatles tune to them.  It would take away from the suttle art George displayed at a low key. 

The following people thank I was the walrus for this post:

Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<
28 January 2016
9.03am
Avatar
Derek_Francis
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 119
Member Since:
20 January 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I was the walrus said
If George had a bigger role than he already did with the Beatles, well then they wouldn't have that Beatles tune to them.  It would take away from the suttle art George displayed at a low key. 

When Lennon ushered in the psychadelic sound, there were probably people back then saying "This is not the Beatles I remember".

If "Something ", "Here Comes The Sun ", and "While My Guitar Gently Weeps " isn't a Beatles sound, I'm not sure what is.

The following people thank Derek_Francis for this post:

Beatlebug, I was the walrus
31 January 2016
4.22pm
Avatar
bewareofchairs
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 166
Member Since:
18 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

JPM-Fangirl said
You got a few things wrong there.

Paul did not rely on George to learn chords. George himself said (on record!) that Paul was always better with chords, especially the more difficult ones. They each went all over Liverpool to learn new chords, which they then would show to the others. But to say George taught Paul to play guitar, is not accurate. Don't take my word for it, check George's comments on this topic.

Paul and John weren't at the top of their game from '67 onwards? Sure, John's output was waning, but Paul did much of his best work in the final years. Saying he wasn't doing very well is just silly and untrue.

Something tells me you don't like (John and) Paul very much. That's fine, just try not to pose an opinion as fact. George was never just a session musician to anyone though he may have felt like one at times. Don't underestimate him, though. He was very much capable of voicing his opinion. He didn't just sit in a corner and sulk, he spoke his mind when he wasn't happy. And it's probably a good thing he did because he did influence the others more than once. John may have underestimated George until the day he died, but Paul never denied that George was massively important to the band. 

Perhaps we should all be a bit more like Ringo: he loved George very, very much, yet he doesn't turn him into a saint. Just this morning, I saw an interview in which Ringo repeatedly expressed that George wasn't the easiest person to work with, and he joked about George trying to work his religion into other people's songs.

Let's face it: they were all complicated, flawed people - George included. Isn't that much of their charm anyway?

Excuse me, but you've made a lot of assumptions in this post that aren't true. I never said George taught Paul how to play guitar, but he did know the most about guitars out of the 3 of them, and it has been documented - either in Mark Lewisohn's new book or another reliable one - that they used new chords George showed them to write songs. 

Again, not what I said. I was referring to 1969 when George was at his most prolific, and yes, it was not Paul's best year imo. 

Actually, Paul happens to be my second favourite Beatle. Your post comes across as pretty condescending here. Maybe you're not familiar with my previous posts, but I have never tried to claim any of The Beatles were saints. That didn't really have anything to do with my point. At the time Paul DID treat George as if he wasn't important to the band. Sorry but he did - George wasn't upset with him for no reason, and it wasn't until he walked out of the Let It Be sessions that anyone took him seriously.

31 January 2016
7.31pm
Avatar
ewe2
Inside the beat
Rishikesh
Members
Forum Posts: 2929
Member Since:
8 January 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Let's not be hasty shall we? There is room enough for differences of opinion without accusations and ad hominems. It's not the best way at all, says George ahdn_george_01

The following people thank ewe2 for this post:

I was the walrus, Into the Sky with Diamonds

I'm like Necko only I'm a bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin and also everyone. Or is everyone me? Now I'm a confused bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin everyone who is definitely not @Joe.  This has been true for 2016 & 2017 Sig-Badge.png but I may have to get more specific in the future.

aus-flag-v-small.png

1 February 2016
1.47am
Avatar
bewareofchairs
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 166
Member Since:
18 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

ewe2 said
Let's not be hasty shall we? There is room enough for differences of opinion without accusations and ad hominems. It's not the best way at all, says George ahdn_george_01

Don't worry, I'm completely chill and don't mean to attack anyone. It's just kind of annoying when people automatically assume you don't know what you're talking about just because they disagree.

The following people thank bewareofchairs for this post:

I was the walrus
1 February 2016
7.55am
Avatar
Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^<
the Netherlands
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1435
Member Since:
27 March 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

George left the Let It Be sessions over an argument with John, not because of anything Paul said. But please, let's just agree to disagree. Life is very short, and there's no time for fussing and fighting a-hard-days-night-paul-9a-hard-days-night-george-9

The following people thank Mademoiselle Kitty >^..^< for this post:

Beatlebug

Formerly Known As JPM-Fangirl --Paul-Badge.png 2016

'Out There' - 07-06-2015 - Ziggo Dome Amsterdam -- 'One On One' - 12-06-2016 - Pinkpop Festival Landgraaf

1 February 2016
8.03am
Avatar
I was the walrus
The Cavern Club
Members
Forum Posts: 77
Member Since:
21 July 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Derek Francis said

If "Something ", "Here Comes The Sun ", and "While My Guitar Gently Weeps " isn't a Beatles sound, I'm not sure what is.

I do agree, no doubt, George has written some incredible songs, but he is only the lead in 1 or 2 per album, which I feel is a perfect role for him.  His songs always seem to be at the top of my list for every album though. 

Forum Timezone: America/Chicago
Most Users Ever Online: 700
Currently Online: Von Bontee, WeepingAtlasCedars, sir walter raleigh
Guest(s) 1
Top Posters:
Starr Shine?: 15907
Ron Nasty: 10825
50yearslate: 8592
Necko: 7903
AppleScruffJunior: 7212
parlance: 7111
mr. Sun king coming together: 6403
Mr. Kite: 6147
trcanberra: 6064
sir walter raleigh: 5105
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 87
Members: 2573
Moderators: 6
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 3
Forums: 44
Topics: 4890
Posts: 349823
Newest Members:
LarryInc64, dennisobell78, Cameron, Legionbus, kurlykale
Moderators: Joe: 5099, Zig: 9812, meanmistermustard: 23245, Ahhh Girl: 19396, Beatlebug: 17260, The Hole Got Fixed: 7921
Administrators: Joe: 5099