Please consider registering
Guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
Songwriters Discussion Room--to share thoughts, projects, etc.
No permission to create posts
9 November 2013
10.31pm
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think some Beatles Biblers like me dabble in writing (and/or peforming, recording) songs.

Sometimes I have random thoughts about the songwriting process I'd like to share, or sometimes I run into a problem with a song I'm creating and could use some suggestions.

The world of songwriters is very diverse: some are rich and famous, of course; others are successfully pursuing a career in music, but are not really that famous and often may have to leave music to make money in other ways for a while; others may be interested in performing and/or recording, but are under no delusions that they will become so successful, and are content to just play the occasional open mike or music fair gig (if they're lucky).

Meanwhile, many others love the process, and some may be quite talented, but they have pretty much abandoned any hopes of getting recognized and have consigned their love to a private personal hobby.  For this category, the availability of recording options and social networking opened up by the Net may offer a ray of hope to widen their activity beyond "playing in the basement".  I'm not yet computer-savvy enough to have made a whole bunch of recordings I can link people to -- so I guess that puts me in an even further sub-category...

I probably fit this last category the most.  Anyway, I'd like to use this little space mostly for my random thoughts about my songwriting; but other people are free and welcome to use this for any purpose they'd like, loosely relevant to this broad topic.

To start the ball rolling, random thought:  I've noticed that when I start creating a song, getting a good pattern of chords and riffs going on the acoustic guitar, I sometimes have a tendency to let the bass line become so dominant, it takes over and "demands" to be the main melody.  This sets up a tension in me, because I tend to think the main melody should be different from the guiding bass line, not the same.  So I consciously try to create a melody that's different from where the song so far is pushing.  Sometimes this works well; other times I get stuck and can't figure a way out.

One time, however, I had a flash.  The bass line was so insistent, and during the day when I thought about the song I was still in the process of writing I would just let myself hum the bass line as though it were the main melody.  Finally, I gave up trying to resist that insistent bass line, and I said "Why not just make the bass line the main melody?"  I did just that -- and it worked very well, and it turned out to be one of the best songs I've written, imho.

The following people thank Funny Paper for this post:

SgtPeppersBulldog

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

12 November 2013
12.14am
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

There are two types of songs (this may well apply to any kind of art, whether poems, stories, paintings, sculpture, etc.):

1) something that seems cobbled together, a bit forced, constructed like a piece of furniture

2) something that seems to have popped out of nowhere organically, something that seems to have grown, like a flower or a fruit.

All the songs on Paul's new NEW album, I hate to say, seem to fall in the category of #1.

A songwriter knows when a song he is writing, or has written, is one or the other.  As good as some of the #1 songs can be, they always seem a bit forced, and about the best of them, one can sense the nails and screws just under the surface holding them together.  That doesn't mean they can't be quite cool and fun -- to play or to listen to.  At any rate, I feel blessed that I have created a few songs that feel like a #2.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

12 November 2013
12.44am
Avatar
Ron Nasty
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 7187
Member Since:
17 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I would suggest that there is actually a third type - the cross between the two. You get the flash of inspiration, and you get that original flash down (on paper in my case, as I write poetry), but for some reason you go back to it, and that original moment has gone, and what you might add might seem fine and work well, you're always aware of the joins.

A good example of this is Paul Simon's Bridge Over Troubled Water. Simon's original only had the first two verses. Listening to it in the run-up to recording, it was suggested to him that it needed a third verse. He went away and wrote the "shine on, silver girl" verse, but he has always said that - to him - the third verse has never really worked.

It is that question of when to apply the final brushstroke. Sometimes something can fall between the two types you describe by not knowing, or not realising, when to stop.

The following people thank Ron Nasty for this post:

Silly Girl

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

12 November 2013
5.03pm
Bungalow Bob
Seattle, Washington
Paris Olympia
Members
Forum Posts: 354
Member Since:
16 September 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 

 

mja6758 said

A good example of this is Paul Simon's Bridge Over Troubled Water. Simon's original only had the first two verses. Listening to it in the run-up to recording, it was suggested to him that it needed a third verse. He went away and wrote the "shine on, silver girl" verse, but he has always said that - to him - the third verse has never really worked.

I have alway gotten a kick out of Paul Simon's humble recollection of writing this song. Apparently, with the third verse, he couldn't think of another rhyme for "I will lay me down." After "Friends just can't be found," and "Pain is all around," he just drew a blank. I can imagine him feverishly thumbing through his rhyming dictionary, scribbling "brown, frown, town… clown…" before giving up and settling for the somewhat inferior "…sailing right behind/I will ease your mind."

I really like discussing the creative songwriting process, and I hope this turns into a lively thread. I go through periods of extended heightened creativity, where I've written some pretty good songs, and then I go through periods of artistic drought, where I don't come up with anything, and I wish I understood how and why that happens.

13 November 2013
12.15am
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

mja6758 said
I would suggest that there is actually a third type - the cross between the two. You get the flash of inspiration, and you get that original flash down (on paper in my case, as I write poetry), but for some reason you go back to it, and that original moment has gone, and what you might add might seem fine and work well, you're always aware of the joins.

A good example of this is Paul Simon's Bridge Over Troubled Water. Simon's original only had the first two verses. Listening to it in the run-up to recording, it was suggested to him that it needed a third verse. He went away and wrote the "shine on, silver girl" verse, but he has always said that - to him - the third verse has never really worked.

It is that question of when to apply the final brushstroke. Sometimes something can fall between the two types you describe by not knowing, or not realising, when to stop.

Yeah, after I posted my last post, I almost went back to edit because you're right, there may be a third sort of hybrid of those two.  The type that just comes whole like an epiphany, though, has a unique specialness.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

13 November 2013
12.22am
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Although it's somewhat subjective, I think one can recognize the songs by a particular artist that seem like the "Muse" just hit him and he didn't have to engage in a lot of patchwork and hammering nails just to plug the leaks, so to speak.

Here are my picks -- just an incomplete list -- of those types of songs for Paul Simon (solo years):

Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard

Kodachrome

Was a Sunny Day

50 Ways to Leave Your Lover

Diamonds in the Soles of My Shoes

You Can Call Me Al

(Though one of my favorite songs of his is "I Do It For Your Love" I can't quite say it's one of this type of song -- I suspect if anything, it's a hybrid of the two types: he had a flash of inspiration with a melody or two and a few chords, then he began to weave it together with intellectual effort into a whole with beginning and end and middle.  The finished product is great, but it still feels a bit artificial here and there and you can see the seams, so to speak.)

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

9 December 2013
8.20pm
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

More notes on songwriting:

"To R or not to R"...

Sometimes with words ending in an R I like to pronounce the word frontally and juicily, like biting into an apple.  Of course, it can sound rather "southern" or "country" that way, so if you don't want that effect, you have to be careful.

I'm working on writing a song now where most of the time I want that R sound (for a line ending in "car" for example).

However, for some reason, with one line I thought of the British singer Dido and how she has this rather cute way of avoiding the R sound in words, and it just feels right to do that for this one line:

"picking up the swag from the starboard bow"

where I want to sing

"picking up the swag from the STAHbud bow"

P.S.:  The Beatles seemed to have just let their British take over which, when supplemented with the 60s American pop penchant for not sounding the Rs, resulted in hardly ever having an R sound.  What Beatles songs had the R sound in any word enunciated clearly?  That would be a good subject for one of those offbeat Topics, I suppose...

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

15 January 2014
6.01pm
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

When I'm working on a song and it's "under construction", it often runs through my mind during the day, and/or I sing (or hum) parts of it to myself.  In this process, many little variations come to mind -- almost feels like the various water rivulets and branches of a mountain stream finding its "true nature" as the form it will become amid the terrain it's carving as the vessel of that form, so to speak.  I'm always aware, however, that "more is not necessarily better" and sometimes "less is more".  On the other hand, I don't want to suppress the creative flow while it's going on, in case some flash happens that is worth keeping.  Often as this goes on over time, certain of the variations that keep coming back to me I can tell are keepers.

However, there's another dynamic afoot here: as a musician, I strongly believe that a song should have variations and curlicues to its basic pattern.  I often am annoyed when songwriters out there fashion a song with a certain structure, but they never deviate from any parts of it when they repeat the refrain or the chorus etc.  So I consciously try to figure out deviations to do -- they don't have to be flashy; they can just be subtle.  But more importantly, they should feel right, musically. 

So I've got a song I'm working on how that's in a sub-genre one could call "tavern songs" or "Irish shanties", with a strong folkish feel.  This sub-genre being traditional sounding carries a strong pressure to be boilerplate and not have lots of variation.  All the more reason to break the rules, I say.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

20 January 2014
11.34pm
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Currently I'm rounding out and polishing up a song I wrote that's in 5/4 time -- my first 5/4 time song ever.  Very interesting and difficult to remember the right beats while playing acoustic guitar and singing.  I'd have to record several tracks to be absolutely sure to keep the time right -- the first track only basic chords and no singing.  Otherwise, I'll just have to keep practicing until I get it right...

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

20 January 2014
11.48pm
Avatar
Necko
Earth
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 7208
Member Since:
10 November 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Funny Paper said
Currently I'm rounding out and polishing up a song I wrote that's in 5/4 time -- my first 5/4 time song ever.  Very interesting and difficult to remember the right beats while playing acoustic guitar and singing.  I'd have to record several tracks to be absolutely sure to keep the time right -- the first track only basic chords and no singing.  Otherwise, I'll just have to keep practicing until I get it right...

I've never been able to write in anything other than 4/4 or 3/4 and still manage to make it sound good.

Currently, I'm working on six albums at once for three different musical projects.

C

I'm Necko.  I'm like Ringo except I wear necklaces.

I'm also ewe2 on weekends.

Most likely to post things that make you go hmm... 2015, 2016. 

20 January 2014
11.55pm
Avatar
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator

Moderators

Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 14925
Member Since:
20 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Funny Paper said
Currently I'm rounding out and polishing up a song I wrote that's in 5/4 time -- my first 5/4 time song ever.  Very interesting and difficult to remember the right beats while playing acoustic guitar and singing.  I'd have to record several tracks to be absolutely sure to keep the time right -- the first track only basic chords and no singing.  Otherwise, I'll just have to keep practicing until I get it right...

Impressive. Shall I wait for its arrival on the "Pimp your stuff thread"?

 

7 July 2017
5.49pm
Avatar
Dark Overlord
Nowhere Land
Rishikesh
Premoderation
Forum Posts: 3080
Member Since:
9 March 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I thought i'd give some advice on songwriting.

1. Determining genre and style

Before you write your song, you have to determine what genre and style that you want, here are some common examples:

Genres:

Rock

Pop

Blues

Jazz

Country

Folk

Classical

Metal (could be classified as rock but i think it belongs in it's own genre)

Rap

EDM

Experimental

Styles:

Rocker

Acoustic

Singalong

Ballad

Epic

Swing

2. Instrument selecting

Now that you've determined a genre and a style, now it's time to select your instruments.

Some common setups, 1 example per genre:

Rock:

lead vocals

backing vocals

electric rhythm guitar

electric lead guitar

electric bass guitar

drum set

piano

Pop:

lead vocals

rhythm synthesizer

bass synthesizer

drum machine

samples

Blues:

lead vocals

electric guitar

electric bass guitar

drum set

harmonica

Jazz:

organ

upright bass

drum set

saxophone

Country:

lead vocals

backing vocals

acoustic rhythm guitar

pedal steel guitar

upright bass

drum set

violin

Folk:

lead vocals

acoustic rhythm guitar

harmonica

Classical:

8 violins

4 violas

2 cellos

1 upright bass

6 trumpets

3 trombones

2 french horns

1 tuba

4 flutes

3 clarinets

2 oboes

1 piccolo

1 percussionist

1 pianist

1 classical guitarist

Metal:

lead vocals

electric rhythm guitar

electric lead guitar

electric lead guitar

electric bass guitar

drum set

Rap:

lead vocals

sampled backing track

EDM:

samples being mixed live via turntable

Experimental:

lead vocals

air conditioner

tea kettle

knife

potatoes

doorbell

tambourine

alarm clock

3. Determining instrument model and effects

This one may seem optional but using a Fender Stratocaster instead of a Gibson Les Paul will make a change in your song, same with having a clean or distorted Fender Stratocaster.

Now let's mention specific instrument models and effects in this list.

Rock:

Lead vocals

Backing vocals

Fender Stratocaster rhythm guitar through Fender Twin Reverb setting on Fender Mustang II clean using the amp reverb

Gibson SG lead guitar through Fender Twin Reverb setting on Fender Mustang II using Fuzz effect

Fender Precision Bass through Fender Bassman setting on Fender Mustang II clean

Ludwig drum kit consisting of bass, snare, 2 mounted toms, floor tom, hi hat, and crash

Yamaha upright piano

Pop:

Autotuned lead vocals

Roland System 1 synthesizer for rhythm

Roland System 1 synthesizer for bass

HTML5 drum machine on the internet

samples from Steve Burns 1996 performance of Mail Time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1wUirNlR0U

Blues:

Lead vocals

Fender Stratocaster played through Fender Blues Deluxe with overdriven amp and Boss reverb pedal

Fender Precision Bass played through Fender Bassman

Gretsch drum kit consisting of bass, snare, mounted tom, floor tom, hi hat, and crash

Hohner harmonica

Jazz:

Hammond B-3 organ through Leslie speaker

Upright bass

Ludwig drum kit consisting of bass, snare, 2 mounted toms, floor tom, hi hat, ride, and crash

Baritone saxophone

Country:

Lead vocals

Backing vocals

Martin D-28

Zum Steel double neck pedal steel guitar

Upright bass

First Act drum kit consisting of bass, snare, hi hat, and crash

Violin

Folk:

Lead vocals

Gibson J-200

Hohner Harmonica

Classical:

8 violins

4 violas

2 cellos

1 upright bass

6 trumpets

3 trombones

2 french horns

1 tuba

4 flutes

3 clarinets

2 oboes

1 piccolo

1 percussionist who's percussion consists of Timpani, snare drum, cymbals, and cowbell

1 Steinway grand piano

1 Ramirez DeEstudio classical guitarist

Metal:

Lead vocals

Gibson Explorer rhythm guitar played through Line 6 spider with Digitech death metal distortion pedal

Ibanez Jem lead guitar played through Line 6 spider with Digitech death metal distortion pedal

Jackson Kelly played through Line 6 spider with Digitech death metal distortion pedal

Ibanez Gio played through Line 6 spider

Mixed brands drum kit consisting of 2 bass drums, snare, 4 mounted toms, floor tom, hi hat, 2 rides, and crash.

Rap:

Lead vocals

Backing track is Billie Jean by Michael Jackson

EDM:

Samples being mixed live via turntable

Experimental:

lead vocals

Haier air conditioner

Faberware tea kettle

Faberware kitchen knife

ASDA russell potatoes

Doorbell

First Act tambourine

Vintage alarm clock

4. Chord progression

I know that i wrote a lot about instrumentation, but now let's learn about the actual song.

What chord progression you want to use depends on the style and genre of music you chose.

For example, here's a good rock chord progression:

Verse:

A D E A

Chorus:

D E A G F#m Bm Dm E A

Another way to transpose that (which we will be doing for the rest of our examples) is by listing the key and then using numbers with UPPERCASE meaning major and lowercase meaning minor like so.

Key=A

Verse:

I IV V I

Chorus:

IV V I VII vi ii iv V I

Note the minor 4th chord in there, The Beatles used that chord in many songs such as Nowhere Man and Hello, Goodbye, it really gives the song a nice kick.

For a pop song, we need a simple chord progression.

Key=C

I IV V V

Modern pop is very simplistic, there's no room for minor 4th chords or tritones, classic pop has a little more room but even then, you don't want a complex chord progression in a pop song.

Although there are exceptions, blues music typically uses the 12 bar blues pattern as shown here.

Key=E

I I I I IV IV I I V IV I V

Occasionally, they'll add a chorus where they shift the key up 5 steps and so something like so.

Key=A

I I V V I I II I

A ballad will often be in a minor key so it sounds sad and will have a progression like so.

Key=Dm

i bIII IV iv i V i V

5. Writing parts

Let's learn about writing parts.

Here's a simple acoustic guitar riff using an open A, D, and E chord:

Key=A

I IV I V

But let's make a strumming pattern.

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

Those are our beats in the measure, we could strum like that but let's instead do something like this.

1 2 3 x 1 2 334 1 2 3 x 1 2 334

That means that we strum on the 1st 3 bars, then take a break, then on the next measure, we strum once on the first 2 bars, then strum three times, this triple strum starts on the 3rd measure, does a strum inbetween, and them a 3rd strum comes at the 4th measure.

Now let's TAB out a bass part:

G|----------------2------------|
D|----2-000-4------2-0----|
A|0-4------------0-4----4-2|

We want our bass to have a melodic flow to it, so giving it a I III V progression is great.

You know what, let's also have a piano doing the same thing as the guitar except playing A4, D5, and E5.

Now let's focus on the percussion, i say we use a tambourine because drums don't seem to work here.

Let's do a shake it shake it hit it shake it pattern.

That's all for now, i hope you enjoyed.

The following people thank Dark Overlord for this post:

SgtPeppersBulldog

If you're reading this, you are looking for something to do.

7 July 2017
6.57pm
Avatar
sir walter raleigh
On trampoline
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1846
Member Since:
26 January 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The way I write songs differs. Sometimes i'll come up with a chord progression that sounds unique and interesting and is fun to play. From there i'll write melody on top, usually trying to avoid common sequences of scale degrees, and maybe try to include non-chord tones or jazzy chord spellings within the melody line. 

The other way is if a good melody line pops into my head, I'll sit at the piano and try to come up with unique ways to set it, avoiding common progressions if possible. 

Then, as John often did, I will sing random words and phrases to the melody while playing the instrument part until I find a solid line to sit down and build around. Usually from there I can write a full set of lyrics. 

The following people thank sir walter raleigh for this post:

SgtPeppersBulldog, Silly Girl

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

7 July 2017
7.30pm
Avatar
Ron Nasty
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 7187
Member Since:
17 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Dark Overlord said

3. Determining instrument model and effects

This one may seem optional but using a Fender Stratocaster instead of a Gibson Les Paul will make a change in your song, same with having a clean or distorted Fender Stratocaster.

That is part of the recording/arrangement process, not the songwriting process.

I have never heard any successful songwriter suggest they need to settle on the instrumentation they'll use in the studio to actually write a song. There are multiple examples throughout The Beatles' (YesterdayNorwegian WoodA Day In The LifeStrawberry FieldsRevolution - single, 9 - and I could go on, where what they did in the studio they had no idea of while writing the song).

Yesterday is a good example, as Paul certainly didn't write it with a string quartet in mind, and wasn't really that keen when GM first suggested the idea.

Arrangement and recording is a separate thing from the actual writing of the song.

The following people thank Ron Nasty for this post:

Silly Girl, Mr. Kite

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

8 July 2017
8.27am
Avatar
Dark Overlord
Nowhere Land
Rishikesh
Premoderation
Forum Posts: 3080
Member Since:
9 March 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You could say that songwriting and arrangement are 2 different things, but I think that arrangement is part of the songwriting process because the arrangement is part of the song, it may not happen until after the lyrics and chord progression are fully written but the arrangement is a very important part of the song, imagine While My Guitar Gently Weeps without Eric Clapton's guitar solo or Nowhere Man without John and George's Fenders, it would make the song not as good. Think about it, is the arrangement part of the song and then think do you have to write the arrangement in the same way that you write a song. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that the arrangement is part of the song.

If you're reading this, you are looking for something to do.

8 July 2017
10.20am
Avatar
Shamrock Womlbs
Waiting for the van to come
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1962
Member Since:
24 March 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Determining what instrument model and effects is pretty cool if you are Eric Clap-tone and you have a room (or several rooms) full of guitars and/or amps/pedals.

The following people thank Shamrock Womlbs for this post:

Silly Girl

"I Need You by George Harrison"

8 July 2017
10.54am
Avatar
sir walter raleigh
On trampoline
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1846
Member Since:
26 January 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Dark Overlord said
You could say that songwriting and arrangement are 2 different things, but I think that arrangement is part of the songwriting process because the arrangement is part of the song, it may not happen until after the lyrics and chord progression are fully written but the arrangement is a very important part of the song, imagine While My Guitar Gently Weeps without Eric Clapton's guitar solo or Nowhere Man without John and George's Fenders, it would make the song not as good. Think about it, is the arrangement part of the song and then think do you have to write the arrangement in the same way that you write a song. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that the arrangement is part of the song.  

The arrangement is part of the genius in Brian Wilson's songwriting. He heard the song in his own head, and arranged scores for a massive variety of instruments to accompany the vocals, which often involved complex harmony arrangements that bring new elements to the song. 

But if you want the arrangement to be acoustic guitar and vocals, then the arrangement plays no part in the somgwriting. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

8 July 2017
11.07am
Avatar
Ron Nasty
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 7187
Member Since:
17 December 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Here to me, @Dark Overlord, is the flaw in your argument - there is no set way (arrangement) to perform a song. The Beatles found arrangements for themselves that worked for them. Many other artists have found different routes into those same songs that are no less valid but completely different.

You are making your focus far too narrow, I suspect partly because of your interest in the instruments they played.

I kind of feel I have had this discussion with you or one of your former proxies before.

Let us take a look at Help as an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWP6Qki8mWc

Now, John would say in his 1970 Rolling Stone interview:

I don't like the recording too much; we did it too fast trying to be commercial...

So, while John is being a bit disingenuous, as it was recorded as they recorded and arranged it because it was the title song of a film (John could have held it back and recorded it closer to his original vision.

In 1968 Deep Purple recorded a very different for their début album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyEOYJDjGGM

As did Tina Turner (very badly IMO) in the 80s:

So here we have three versions, very different versions, none of the arrangements - including The Beatles own - were what John had in his head when writing the song. Yet, on your theory, John should have been thinking about the make and model of instruments that would be used in the studio while he was working out the words and tune.

It really doesn't work like that - otherwise those who present a different arrangement would get a songwriter credit.

Here's where the truth is nailed by a Beatle, George. It's them being filmed working on Hey Jude for Tony Palmer's 1968 documentary All My Loving. George is up in the booth because Paul's annoyed at an "answering reply" guitar that George has trying and won't quit. During the infamous Get Back/Let It Be "I'll play whatever you want me to play, or I won't play at all" exchange, Paul refers back to this session.

To include George in the film though, a comment from him to GM is included:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siC8CiyuKrk

Now, where this is relevant to this is George's main point:

One bit of music can be pop, jazz, classical, whatever you want it to be...

On your theory of the songwriter writing how it should be recorded and the instruments to be used at the composing stage, that would make George's a comment a lie.

Take a look at John working on Imagine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YbS_GqzhUI

The song is already written, the discussion is about instrumentation and arrangement...

And a version recorded not using John's white piano is no less valid than his version with.

The following people thank Ron Nasty for this post:

Silly Girl, Dark Overlord, SgtPeppersBulldog, The Hole Got Fixed, WeepingAtlasCedars

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

8 July 2017
11.10am
Avatar
QuarryMan
Carnegie Hall
Members
Forum Posts: 503
Member Since:
26 January 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Does anybody have any advice for coming up with good chord progressions? My favourite genre (jangle pop) doesn't really use strummed guitar chords but I tend to compose my bass lines to follow a sequence. 

Also, people talk about music first vs lyrics first but I do it differently - unless I come up with a really good melody, I come up with a song title and then I know what I'm writing lyrics about. 

and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make

8 July 2017
11.17am
Avatar
sir walter raleigh
On trampoline
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1846
Member Since:
26 January 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I good way to come up with them is to try dropping scale degrees to transition into the next chords. A common one is to go from the major IV to the minor iv by dropping the third scae degree. From there you can go back to the I, or anywhere else that sounds good. 

For a good example of this listen to Paul's song New

Walking down the bass is also a good trick. I usually try to keep the top chord relatively stable, with slight changes to similar chords when it fits the bass.

George does this in something, Paul does it on For No One, and John uses it on the intro to Strawberry Fields. Pretty simple trick but very effective. 

When you're writing your progression and get stuck, try singing to yourself where you want to go next, and find that place on the instrument. 

Also, never forget that some of the best songs have extremely basic progressions. The melody is just as, if not more important than the chords. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/Chicago

Most Users Ever Online: 597

Currently Online: robert, meanmistermustard
102 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Starr Shine?: 14826

Silly Girl: 10678

Necko: 7208

Ron Nasty: 7181

parlance: 7097

mr. Sun king coming together: 6412

Mr. Kite: 6143

trcanberra: 6000

AppleScruffJunior: 5090

mithveaen: 4614

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 87

Members: 2432

Moderators: 4

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 3

Forums: 42

Topics: 4353

Posts: 270392

Newest Members:

Mondevana, Joan, celticat, Iz, Ady

Moderators: Ahhh Girl: 14924, meanmistermustard: 21116, Zig: 9375, Joe: 4803

Administrators: Joe: 4803, Ellie: 4

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today: None
Upcoming: Father McCartney