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Punk Music
26 November 2017
6.08pm
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Dark Overlord
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Good point but I believe that My Generation is the first punk song, which predates Taxman by 2 years. Helter Skelter is also pretty punk when you think about it.

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26 November 2017
11.17pm
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Evangeline
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I wouldn't consider Taxman punk.
And even if I think about it, Helter Skelter isn't punk.

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27 November 2017
11.11am
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QuarryMan
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Why not, @Evangeline ? The song meets all the usual definitions of punk to me. 

Good point, @Dark Overlord . Wasn't it only one year though?

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There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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27 November 2017
12.23pm
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Dark Overlord
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My Generation was released on October 29th, 1965 and Taxman on August 5th, 1966 so you're right, I thought the song was released in 1964 for some reason.

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27 November 2017
12.50pm
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Evangeline
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QuarryMan said
Why not, Evangeline ? The song meets all the usual definitions of punk to me. 
  

What are your definitions?
Helter Skelter is more in the metal genre to me than it is in punk.

When I think of punk music I think against society, against normal lyric composition, and against mainstream rock bands.

I don't feel like Helter Skelter fits in any of those.
I mean, it was said to be a metal song, not a punk song (or the equivalent back then.)

I am you as you are you as you are you and you are all together. 

27 November 2017
5.49pm
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sir walter raleigh
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I want to throw in Masters Of War as the first Punk song, but I am notorious foR giving Dylan too much credit. 

Either way, doing this on an album is pretty Punk to me. Then again I’m not a punk and don’t listen to punk music. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

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27 November 2017
8.18pm
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vonbontee
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I swear, some of those Star Club performances like "Shimmy Like Kate" have punk tempos, punk attitudes, punk guitars and punk simplicity...plus the band even dressed like the Ramones!

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GEORGE: In fact, The Detroit Sound. JOHN: In fact, yes. GEORGE: In fact, yeah. Tamla-Motown artists are our favorites. The Miracles. JOHN: We like Marvin Gaye. GEORGE: The Impressions, Marvin Gaye. PAUL & GEORGE: Mary Wells. GEORGE: The Exciters. RINGO: Chuck Jackson. JOHN: To name but eighty. 

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27 November 2017
8.38pm
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Ron Nasty
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When Don Was was doing the soundtrack for Backbeat, @vonbontee, and he had this band of grunge and indie greats recreating the Hamburg-era Beatles, he'd asked Ringo if he had any advice for the approach to take, knowing that Ringo had a unique perspective by virtue of having been a member of the band in Hamburg, but having spent more time as an audience member.

Ringo told Don, "Just remember, The Beatles were pretty much a punk band in Hamburg."

As for first punk song, The Kingsmen's 1963 Louie Louie is always among those cited when drawing up a list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....V1p1dM3snQ

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28 November 2017
12.24am
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Shamrock Womlbs
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vonbontee said
I swear, some of those Star Club performances like "Shimmy Like Kate" have punk tempos, punk attitudes, punk guitars and punk simplicity...plus the band even dressed like the Ramones!  

And they even used piano strings for the bass... that is so punk... the Beatles in Hamburg were really punk in every way...

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28 November 2017
2.13am
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penny lane
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In addition to The Kingsmen, Link Wray's  Rumble has to stand as a huge iinfluence, if punk is defined as a call to juvenile delinquency, rebellion and energy, hello The Ramones. The Sex Pistols for me benefited from being in the right place at the right time, punk was an idea whose time had come (again) .

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28 November 2017
11.18am
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QuarryMan
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Evangeline said

What are your definitions?
Helter Skelter is more in the metal genre to me than it is in punk.

When I think of punk music I think against society, against normal lyric composition, and against mainstream rock bands.

I don't feel like Helter Skelter fits in any of those.
I mean, it was said to be a metal song, not a punk song (or the equivalent back then.)  

I was talking about Taxman , which has anti establishment lyrics and several of the hallmarks of punk music. 

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There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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28 November 2017
12.07pm
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Dark Overlord
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Evangeline said 
What are your definitions?
Helter Skelter is more in the metal genre to me than it is in punk.

When I think of punk music I think against society, against normal lyric composition, and against mainstream rock bands.

I don't feel like Helter Skelter fits in any of those.
I mean, it was said to be a metal song, not a punk song (or the equivalent back then.)  

Although Helter Skelter doesn't have a punk message, I believe it has the energy and aggressiveness commonly associated with the genre, hard strummed distorted electric guitar chords, angrily played drums, and screamed vocals. On the other hand, Helter Skelter doesn't have the intricacy or classical influence that metal songs typically have and it uses full chords and talks about love 2 things a metal song rarely uses, so I wouldn't call it heavy metal although it certainly is a heavy song.

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28 November 2017
10.39pm
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sir walter raleigh
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Punk does not necessarily have to be anti-establishment. A huge part of punk is a person saying “fuck you for breaking my heart” not just trying to attack the big corporations or the government. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

29 November 2017
10.29am
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QuarryMan
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^^ True, but while punk music doesn't have to do that, it usually does, and when most people think punk music, they think about rebelliousness. Even more watered down punk bands like Green Day often have very political messages in their songs. Case point: Green Day's American Idiot (which I enjoy because of the nostalgia from my childhood but don't particularly respect since the lyrics make Muse's 'Drones' look like intelligent political discourse.)

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There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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29 November 2017
12.56pm
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sir walter raleigh
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American Idiot is one of my favorite punk albums ever. Its up there with London Calling and Nevermind The Bullocks in my eyes. 

Green Day and The Clash are the only punk bands that I enjoy for their musical creativity. They really are doing a lot musically within the relatively restrictive punk framework. 

"The pump don't work cause the vandals took the handles!"

-Bob Dylan, Subterranean Homesick Blues

"We could ride and surf together while our love would grow"

-Brian Wilson, Surfer Girl

29 November 2017
5.51pm
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Shamrock Womlbs
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I think John Cage's 4'33" is quite punk. And it is from 1952.

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29 November 2017
6.26pm
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Elementary Penguin
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QuarryMan said
^^ True, but while punk music doesn't have to do that, it usually does, and when most people think punk music, they think about rebelliousness. Even more watered down punk bands like Green Day often have very political messages in their songs. Case point: Green Day's American Idiot (which I enjoy because of the nostalgia from my childhood but don't particularly respect since the lyrics make Muse's 'Drones' look like intelligent political discourse.)  

I'm surprised that you don't like the lyrics to American Idiot. Plus it isn't a 100% political album anyway. It is a rock opera with a social commentary that is still relevant to this day. 

It was a risky album for a band to release at that time so they deserve credit for doing it. 

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30 November 2017
12.23pm
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QuarryMan
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Elementary Penguin said

I'm surprised that you don't like the lyrics to American Idiot. Plus it isn't a 100% political album anyway. It is a rock opera with a social commentary that is still relevant to this day. 

It was a risky album for a band to release at that time so they deserve credit for doing it.   

I meant the album, not just the title track. It's a solid album. The message is still relevant yes, but that doesn't mean they expressed the message particularly well.

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There is no final victory, as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought, over and over again. So toughen up, bloody toughen up.” - Tony Benn
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30 November 2017
1.36pm
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Necko
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Elementary Penguin said

I'm surprised that you don't like the lyrics to American Idiot. Plus it isn't a 100% political album anyway. It is a rock opera with a social commentary that is still relevant to this day. 

It was a risky album for a band to release at that time so they deserve credit for doing it.   

It's not even really much of a political album at all, though. The title track and Holiday are the only tracks that are even remotely political. It's mostly just a story about some kid who runs away from home. 

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30 November 2017
5.33pm
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Elementary Penguin
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QuarryMan said

I meant the album, not just the title track. It's a solid album. The message is still relevant yes, but that doesn't mean they expressed the message particularly well.  

Yeah, I was talking about the album. I guess I don't see it as a cheesy nostalgia album but a modern classic album if you will. 

Necko said

It's not even really much of a political album at all, though. The title track and Holiday are the only tracks that are even remotely political. It's mostly just a story about some kid who runs away from home.   

Yeah, it is concept album with political undertones. American Idiot and Holiday are the most political songs for sure. 

And in the end the lunch you take is equal to the lunch you bake.

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