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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
27 March 2020
10.59am
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Dark Overlord
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The Hole Got Fixed said
The economy has to fail at some point, it's impossible for it not to.

It has in the past with the Great Depression and the 2008 Financial Crisis, it's just that we don't want it to happen again.

Perhaps society will actually find a way around it for it not to cause lives lost - who knows, this may cause the rejection of capitalism!beatlemaniacs_02_gif

Be careful what you wish for. While communism and anarchy sound great on paper, they don't work well in practice because these ideologies are dependent on the people while capitalism is consistent.

With communism, you need a big government to ration out wealth, leaving a huge opportunity for the leader to become power hungry and take advantage of his power while with anarchy, there's people who would take advantage of it to commit crimes towards those who are incapable to defend themselves.

AppleScruffJunior said
Will we all just round the old and vulnerable people up into one large green area and if they get it, they get it and most of the group will be wiped out and the rest of the 'viable' people can keep the economy working? Is that the best solution?

Actually, if you tweak that scenario a little bit so that only those who have tested negative are allowed into that green area, that's not a bad idea. We can take a ghost town and remodel it so those who are particularly vulnerable yet are confirmed not to have the virus can have a free place to stay until the virus is over.

QuarryMan said
Ugh. The virus spreads through HUMAN CONTACT. If everyone goes outside and starts interacting with each other again, it will spread. That's not because the situation has been 'politicised', it's because That's. How. Viruses. Work.

Exactly, Republicans can get the virus and die while Democrats can lose their businesses due to the ensuing recession. It seems like there's a whole range of ideas from the far right believing it's just a conspiracy to take away our freewill to the far left believing that we should arrest anyone who leaves their house and both of those extremes are ridiculous IMO.

Fortunately, both parties have come to their senses and have come up with a relief bill to help people who are in danger of losing their job without making them return to work but had this issue not been politicized, we would've come up with this bill much earlier and most people would've voluntarily quarantined since they didn't have to worry about losing their job, meaning that no one would've felt pressured to issue mandatory lockdowns.

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27 March 2020
10.59am
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Forget laws. Forget regulations. Just a please be a good person by staying at home unless you absolutely have to leave. Take precautions. Be conscientious. Be aware that your actions have consequences for others and be a decent human being about it.

It’s so sad that we need laws and regulations to convince some people to do that.

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27 March 2020
11.00am
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50yearslate said
Forget laws. Forget regulations. Just a please be a good person by staying at home unless you absolutely have to leave. Take precautions. Be conscientious. Be aware that your actions have consequences for others and be a decent human being about it.

It’s so sad that we need laws and regulations to convince some people to do that.

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Human nature is irritating sometimes, isn't it? Capable of so much good and so much shite, and you can never count on either so you have to account for both, which is very hard. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

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27 March 2020
11.03am
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On another note, my teabag-tag says that "If you do anything out of sheer compassion, you will never be wrong." I disagree with this principle, but I'd like to hear first, what do y'all think?

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27 March 2020
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You suggest, @Dark Overlord, that those who want to not spread the virus sign a contract that will give them total support while they are isolating, but that you should be free to spread the virus and everyone who wants to stop the spread should stay inside until it's worked its way through idiots.

Problem there, health care workers; they're not among those choosing to go out, they have to and they want the dicks who think everything can carry on as normal to go home and stay at home.

Because you want to roam around, not knowing if you have it or are infecting others, because your freewill is so important, and you're being all I, Me, Mine, would you sign a contract agreeing to no contact with medical services while this is going on? Break your leg, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Food poisoning, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Heart attack, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Get hit by a bus, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Covid-19, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so have spread the virus.

There's this Libertarian argument you're attempting based on no harm and saying social distancing would cause you harm so those at more risk than you consider yourself to be at should lock themselves behind closed doors, making you their jailer while you extend the time the virus is spreading.

And again, what about the key workers who have no choice? Why should they have to deal with dicks who have no concern for others or social conscience?

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27 March 2020
11.22am
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Once again, I really don't think DO's argument is really libertarian. Fiddy's point is actually more libertarian IMO, because it entails personally avoiding harming others without requiring government force.

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27 March 2020
12.14pm
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But he does, which is why some of us, including you, have been tapping him on the shoulder, and saying...

NO WAY.
NO FECKING WAY.
ARE YOU HAVING A LAUGH?
GET THE FECK INDOORS AND STAY THERE, YOU STUPID SOD!!!

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27 March 2020
12.17pm
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^Well, I try to be more polite typically, and I am also incurably naive and like to live in my happy sunshine world where I see the best in people are hope people are just "misguided" or "mistaken, bless his/her heart" rather than "STUPID SOD"... ahdn_george_06 but I was definitely like "b r u h n o" a-hard-days-night-paul-7

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27 March 2020
12.25pm
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@Beatlebug  said
On another note, my teabag-tag says that "If you do anything out of sheer compassion, you will never be wrong." I disagree with this principle, but I'd like to hear first, what do y'all think?

I also sort of disagree. But I have a question, in this analysis, are we defining compassion as "pity" or as "empathy and understanding"? Because doing things out of pity will not always yield positive results.

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27 March 2020
3.49pm
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Ron Nasty said
You suggest, @Dark Overlord, that those who want to not spread the virus sign a contract that will give them total support while they are isolating, but that you should be free to spread the virus and everyone who wants to stop the spread should stay inside until it's worked its way through idiots.

Problem there, health care workers; they're not among those choosing to go out, they have to and they want the dicks who think everything can carry on as normal to go home and stay at home.

Because you want to roam around, not knowing if you have it or are infecting others, because your freewill is so important, and you're being all I, Me, Mine, would you sign a contract agreeing to no contact with medical services while this is going on? Break your leg, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Food poisoning, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Heart attack, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Get hit by a bus, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Covid-19, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so have spread the virus.

There's this Libertarian argument you're attempting based on no harm and saying social distancing would cause you harm so those at more risk than you consider yourself to be at should lock themselves behind closed doors, making you their jailer while you extend the time the virus is spreading.

And again, what about the key workers who have no choice? Why should they have to deal with dicks who have no concern for others or social conscience?

That sounds fair. If you want your freewill, you should have to give up your right to obtain medical services. This way, those who prefer safety will get it, those who prefer their freewill get it, and health care workers don't have to worry about surges of people needing medical assistance, putting both their lives and their patients lives at risk.

Add UBI and free Medicare into the equation for those who prefer their safety and we can create a scenario where practically everyone's self quarantining without the need for a government lockdown.

Ron Nasty said
But he does, which is why some of us, including you, have been tapping him on the shoulder, and saying...

NO WAY.

NO FECKING WAY.

ARE YOU HAVING A LAUGH?

GET THE FECK INDOORS AND STAY THERE, YOU STUPID SOD!!!

I'm sorry you feel that way as i wasn't joking, just stating an opposing opinion, as well as possible scenarios where everyone wins. Also, i have been staying indoors, as it's quite scary seeing everything closed down.

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27 March 2020
4.44pm
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Dark Overlord said

Ron Nasty said

You suggest, @Dark Overlord, that those who want to not spread the virus sign a contract that will give them total support while they are isolating, but that you should be free to spread the virus and everyone who wants to stop the spread should stay inside until it's worked its way through idiots.

Problem there, health care workers; they're not among those choosing to go out, they have to and they want the dicks who think everything can carry on as normal to go home and stay at home.

Because you want to roam around, not knowing if you have it or are infecting others, because your freewill is so important, and you're being all I, Me, Mine, would you sign a contract agreeing to no contact with medical services while this is going on? Break your leg, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Food poisoning, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Heart attack, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Get hit by a bus, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so might have the virus. Covid-19, no hospital treatment because you've decided to be running around and so have spread the virus.

There's this Libertarian argument you're attempting based on no harm and saying social distancing would cause you harm so those at more risk than you consider yourself to be at should lock themselves behind closed doors, making you their jailer while you extend the time the virus is spreading.

And again, what about the key workers who have no choice? Why should they have to deal with dicks who have no concern for others or social conscience?

That sounds fair. If you want your freewill, you should have to give up your right to obtain medical services. This way, those who prefer safety will get it, those who prefer their freewill get it, and health care workers don't have to worry about surges of people needing medical assistance, putting both their lives and their patients lives at risk.

Add UBI and free Medicare into the equation for those who prefer their safety and we can create a scenario where practically everyone's self quarantining without the need for a government lockdown.

Ron Nasty said

But he does, which is why some of us, including you, have been tapping him on the shoulder, and saying...

NO WAY.

NO FECKING WAY.

ARE YOU HAVING A LAUGH?

GET THE FECK INDOORS AND STAY THERE, YOU STUPID SOD!!!

I'm sorry you feel that way as i wasn't joking, just stating an opposing opinion, as well as possible scenarios where everyone wins. Also, i have been staying indoors, as it's quite scary seeing everything closed down.

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27 March 2020
5.50pm
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Beatlebug said

The Hole Got Fixed said

Attenborough has it correct.

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The economy has to fail at some point, it's impossible for it not to.

Perhaps society will actually find a way around it for it not to cause lives lost - who knows, this may cause the rejection of capitalism!beatlemaniacs_02_gif

Anyway I'm very much rambling about something I don't really know too much about...

Yes, that's patently obvious... just as it is any time most people talk about socialism/communism... ahdn_paul_01

There's a difference between someone making a self-deprecating joke (emphasis on joke, remember that for the next quote), and someone then saying 'no wait that's true actually'. Doesn't really make me particularly want to finish my breakfast.

Now I remember why I said this not 5 pages ago.

The Hole Got Fixed said
No hard feelings but sometimes a viewpoint expressed with a bit of humour, which is what I tried to do, does help an argument turn a little more light-hearted... and besides, no one had replied yet and I figured I may as well say something that could continue the thread.

And to be honest every time I open my mouth in this thread I just get yelled at anyway for some minor misunderstanding so I may as well leave this thread, and someone else can mod it - and as the other mods don't visit this thread either, it's up to you Bebu. Don't let it turn into Lord of the Fliesa-hard-days-night-george-10

Before I leave this thread for the last time, I do have one more thing I need to say:

Dark Overlord said

Be careful what you wish for. While communism and anarchy sound great on paper, they don't work well in practice because these ideologies are dependent on the people while capitalism is consistent.

They're not the only left-wing ideologies DO. I never said I want either of those two - in fact I don't because I know they don't work irl.

Farewell thread. Hope you solve all the world's problems or something!

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27 March 2020
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I visit this thread, @The Hole Got Fixed. I tend not to get involved in debates as they bore me. What's the point of talking if nothing gets resolved, you just end up going round in circles disagreeing and repeating?

Plus it all goes so serious and the forum should be lightish, hence the stupid gifs which add nothing.

I'll also add that I have zero tact and only end up annoying people. Someone once told me that it was impossible for me to offend her (a different her to the her of the birthday projection), within about 20 minutes she wouldn't speak to me for a good few days.

This may explain why I am so introverted.

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27 March 2020
6.49pm
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Oh I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings @The Hole Got Fixed but I'm just so tired of uninformed people talking about socialism like it's a good thing and I fail to read humor in text sometimes, so I spoke out of line a-hard-days-night-paul-10 I just can't go a day without pissing someone off, can I? ahdn_paul_01

*banishes self to naughty step*

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27 March 2020
7.19pm
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Beatlebug said
Oh I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings @The Hole Got Fixed but I'm just so tired of uninformed people talking about socialism like it's a good thing and I fail to read humor in text sometimes, so I spoke out of line a-hard-days-night-paul-10 I just can't go a day without pissing someone off, can I? ahdn_paul_01

*banishes self to naughty step*

I do that. People mystify me and I have no idea where the line is so I will ask questions which no one else would. My brain wants to know why first so I can offer some sort of sympathy to if warranted. An example being someone I hadn't met for a long time told me she had gotten divorced (not the she in my last post or the birthday projection), now the normal way is to say "oh, how sad to hear" or the equivalent. I asked why she had gotten divorced and she walked off pissed.

For all I know she had been bonking her husband's entire family for years whilst being filmed and played it all back to him at his 45th birthday party, put poison in his tea in an effort to murder him, had a twenty-five-year 30-mile restraining order put in against her, and only just been released from prison. Not exactly something to say "oh, I'm sorry to hear that" to.

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27 March 2020
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And yet somehow we're moderators. a-hard-days-night-john-6

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27 March 2020
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Beatlebug said
And yet somehow we're moderators. a-hard-days-night-john-6

Yip.

Thankfully Joe isn't on very often or he might find out how badly equipped we are for this.

Thankfully at work my superiors have accepted this and just get on with ignoring it. At times I should shut up and return to being quiet.

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27 March 2020
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Speaking of mods being on, when's the last time Zig was here?

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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28 March 2020
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According to his profile it was the 19th August 2019 at 8:04pm (UK time). Maybe if we call him three times he will appear.

@Zig

@Zig

@Zig

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28 March 2020
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Dark Overlord said

Exactly, Republicans can get the virus and die while Democrats can lose their businesses due to the ensuing recession. It seems like there's a whole range of ideas from the far right believing it's just a conspiracy to take away our freewill to the far left believing that we should arrest anyone who leaves their house and both of those extremes are ridiculous IMO.

BRUH

WHAT

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

Beatlebug said

Yes, that's patently obvious... just as it is any time most people talk about socialism/communism... ahdn_paul_01

I'll give you that most people don't know what they're talking about when it comes to different systems and what they mean, but I resent the sentiment that people with anti-capitalist beliefs are just naive or don't know what they're talking about. Quite insulting to the generations of philosophers, activists, unionists, writers, journalists and workers who have devoted their lives to the anti-capitalist cause. Disagree with them on the arguments, by all means, but don't just write them off as childish or silly.

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