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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
13 March 2020
11.24pm
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Getbackintheussr
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50yearslate said
 

This lil guy. I can’t tell if that’s the one in Ron’s picture but these things get huge, I can’t imagine why you’d have one in a pot.

  

They're used a lot in Indian cooking. It's a little weird finding a leaf in your food, but I can assure you they have a wonderful flavour.

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14 March 2020
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Turn Left At Greenland
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I am currently having a very fun time explaining to my friend the conspiracy theory that German Marxist theorist Theodor Adorno was the one who actually wrote all of the Beatles' music. That might be one of my all-time favorite conspiracy theories. 

For those of you who are not aware of this, here's an article I found explaining it: https://rocknerd.co.uk/2016/10.....-possibly/

PS I am planning on pursuing a PhD in philosophy, so I might grace you all with my presence more often in this thread a-hard-days-night-george-10

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14 March 2020
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@Getbackintheussr said

They're used a lot in Indian cooking. It's a little weird finding a leaf in your food, but I can assure you they have a wonderful flavour.  

Yeah, I'm familiar with bay leaves because my mother has used them in soup a few times and we have some dried leaves in the cupboard for that purpose. I'm not sure where she got that custom, whether it's also a Vietnamese thing or what.

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14 March 2020
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^I have eaten some concoctions containing bay leaves and it’s fine as long as you don’t eat the actual leaf. They are very strong.

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14 March 2020
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Turn Left At Greenland said
I am currently having a very fun time explaining to my friend the conspiracy theory that German Marxist theorist Theodor Adorno was the one who actually wrote all of the Beatles' music. That might be one of my all-time favorite conspiracy theories. 

For those of you who are not aware of this, here's an article I found explaining it: https://rocknerd.co.uk/2016/10.....-possibly/

That article was a great read, until the part where Adorno trashes The Beatles... perhaps covering up for his secret involvement in their compositions? a-hard-days-night-george-10

PS I am planning on pursuing a PhD in philosophy, so I might grace you all with my presence more often in this thread a-hard-days-night-george-10

 Awesome! I can't wait for your contributions a-hard-days-night-john-6

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19 March 2020
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lovelyritametermaid said
I definitely have an internal monologue and also have conversations with myself throughout the day in my own head. Though when I think about it too much, I start to have an existential crisis...

Beatlebug said

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8 Same here, I've always remembered things better when I could see them as hazy shadows in my mind. It's how I remember most everything, from concepts and facts to the arrangements and lyrics of songs.

Turn Left At Greenland said

God , the human mind is fascinating.  

  

I also remember things visually. Like when I remember math equations or stuff for physics or chemistry, I remember it as an image of the formula/concept rather than the actual thing. Like when I memorized the unit circle for pre-calculus I memorized the actual image of the unit circle. Or when I try to recall song lyrics I recall an image of those lyrics written out and then sort of just read it from inside my mind.....

It's very weird and hard to try to put how my brain works into words and explanations...

  

I know what you mean regarding remembering something as an image. In 8th grade the school district here would give each student an IQ test to assist with high school class placement. Since I had good grades my mom assumed I had a high IQ. When the results came back as normal the counselor told her my good grades were probably due to a "photographic memory", so I guess that has always been in the back of my mind when considering my psyche.  On the other hand, the person interpreting the IQ test never spoke to me so unless he was a mind reader I'm not sure how reliable his judgment was.mccartney-shrug_01_gif

I also have different aromas that stimulate memories (citrus blossoms, mowed grass, oh yeah!). There are also some visual ones, like a kite stuck in a tree always throws me right into a springtime state of mind no matter what time of year.

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24 March 2020
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AppleScruffJunior said

Beatlebug said

I mean, international flights are probably pretty cheap right now... ahdn_george_06

  

I saw returns flights from NYC to Dublin early next month for €300! The likelihood of them being cancelled is practically definite though.

 

Like, New York is the corona pit of the US atm but still....heyyyyy. 

  

Trump saying he hopes the good old U.S. will be open for business by Easter. 

Everyone else is saying it's getting serious and massive help is required as it's only starting and things are looking dire.

The man is a deluded dangerous twat who is thinking far more of his own election hopes than the safety of his country and people. And yet there will still be the idiots who will buy into his bullshit. 

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24 March 2020
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meanmistermustard said

Trump saying he hopes the good old U.S. will be open for business by Easter. 

[...]
The man is a deluded dangerous twat[...]
 

I see nothing wrong with hoping something will be. I hope everything will be open by Easter, too, that would be great. I fail to see how that makes him a deluded dangerous twat. mccartney-shrug_01_gif

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24 March 2020
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America is heading into an unprecedented crisis, his focus should be on getting the right help and taking the right actions, not talking up how soon the country should be out of it (a time scale no one else agrees with).

The governor of New York was today fuming in a press conference for how bad things are and how insufficient the help is.

Clips from his press conference 

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24 March 2020
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There is a good chance as well that the US will become the new epicenter, overtaking Italy. To hope it's over by Easter is just foolish talk and is giving hope to Americans that this whole thing will be over by the 12th of April. I'd love it to be but it won't. Things are going to get far worse before they get better and it has barely dented the US so far. 

 

I'd like to have what Trump's smoking.

 

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24 March 2020
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When it comes to dealing with the coronavirus, i i think those who prefer their freewill should be able to go on with their lives as usual but those who prefer their safety should have the right to sign a contract in which they are confined to their house with either paid leave or work from home (any employer that fails to comply or attempts to fire their employee to circumvent this can get up to a month in jail per person denied this right) and they'd be given food and supplies via drone and they'd put a black towel on their front door to signal that no guests are allowed.

While it's definitely a crazy idea, i think it's much better than doing nothing or taking away everyone's freewill.

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24 March 2020
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@Dark Overlord said
When it comes to dealing with the coronavirus, i i think those who prefer their freewill should be able to go on with their lives as usual but those who prefer their safety should have the right to sign a contract in which they are confined to their house with either paid leave or work from home (any employer that fails to comply or attempts to fire their employee to circumvent this can get up to a month in jail per person denied this right) and they'd be given food and supplies via drone and they'd put a black towel on their front door to signal that no guests are allowed.

While it's definitely a crazy idea, i think it's much better than doing nothing or taking away everyone's freewill.

So, you think a short term loss of freedom isn't worth it for preventing thousands of deaths? This isn't a few weeks and it's over. This is this year. What you're suggesting is that even if you carry the virus but show no symptoms it doesn't bother you how many people die, even if family members you love, because you'd rather passing on the virus than spending a while with restrictions on your freewill?

I wonder whether you'll feel the same in a month?

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24 March 2020
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." – a quote I normally agree with, and I think local governments threatening people with flamethrowers is a bit alarming to say the least. But it's hardly libertarian to put other people at risk. Why can't people just be responsible and self-isolate, so the government doesn't have to make them do it at gunpoint? a-hard-days-night-ringo-14

It's a dilemma for us more liberty-minded individuals for sure, and a big concern of mine is that, like many so-called "emergency" measures, such things won't just go back to their prior state after the emergency is over. People like to hang on to power once they've got it, and crises are always an excellent opportunity to put things over that would never normally fly.

At the same time, people have been absolutely ridiculous going out and partying like it's still 2019, and if the government does nothing to protect people who are doing the best they can, but being put at unnecessary risk by other stupid people, then that does seem like a failing and they'll have to answer to their constituents.

My centrism is hurting my brain I have to stop a-hard-days-night-paul-7

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25 March 2020
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Beatlebug said
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." – a quote I normally agree with, and I think local governments threatening people with flamethrowers is a bit alarming to say the least. But it's hardly libertarian to put other people at risk. Why can't people just be responsible and self-isolate, so the government doesn't have to make them do it at gunpoint? a-hard-days-night-ringo-14

It's a dilemma for us more liberty-minded individuals for sure, and a big concern of mine is that, like many so-called "emergency" measures, such things won't just go back to their prior state after the emergency is over. People like to hang on to power once they've got it, and crises are always an excellent opportunity to put things over that would never normally fly.

At the same time, people have been absolutely ridiculous going out and partying like it's still 2019, and if the government does nothing to protect people who are doing the best they can, but being put at unnecessary risk by other stupid people, then that does seem like a failing and they'll have to answer to their constituents.

My centrism is hurting my brain I have to stop a-hard-days-night-paul-7

  

This reminds me of an article I read earlier today about the Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben. He's well-known amongst academics for his views on the perpetual-state-of-emergency approach that you raise concerns about, and I appreciate his work on how the logic of power in the post-9/11 world is dangerous and authoritarian.

That being said...Lately he's been trying to apply the same theoretical approach to the coronavirus, and I'm sorry Giorgio, but it just doesn't work that way. Coronavirus isn't a hypothetical threat; it is real, very very real. If we have any respect left for scientists in this bizarre political landscape, we should have respect for the epidemiologists who are warning us of just how bad it's going to get if we don't take decisive action.

Your freedom doesn't matter when you're dead. But much more to the point than that, your freedom to put others at risk is not genuine freedom. To any libertarians who think that this is a matter of freedom vs. security, I would like to remind you of the harm principle: you can do whatever you want, so long as it doesn't hurt others. I can't think of a moral libertarian maxim. But guess what: in a pandemic like this, failing to socially distance actually hurts other people. In perhaps no other situation is a single individual's actions so consequential for the rest of society. 

Pandemics remind us that we live in a society. We're not just a bunch of isolated individuals going about our business: we are a giant and complex network of social interactions, and when things like this virus get into that network, everyone's actions count. 

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25 March 2020
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Currently in this pandemic, two interesting thoughts are sticking out to me right now, which are:

1) How society manages to adapt in long periods of isolation from each other. 

2) A relatively minor but ongoing debate about the lengths that governments should go through to keep the safety of citizens in check, and if there is a line to the limits they impose.

Not much other than that, mostly praying that the situation gets better.

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25 March 2020
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Beatlebug said
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." – a quote I normally agree with, and I think local governments threatening people with flamethrowers is a bit alarming to say the least. But it's hardly libertarian to put other people at risk. Why can't people just be responsible and self-isolate, so the government doesn't have to make them do it at gunpoint? a-hard-days-night-ringo-14

  

You're thinking as if humans are rational, very economist of you 😉 Unfortunately, we're not. Look at any country declaring immediate lockdown and social isolation to prevent the spread of the coronavirus and look at the photos of the supermarkets from the same day-people crammed in against one another, fighting over a loaf of bread. Ignoring all safety measures just so they can have a piece of comfort that they think they need. Even though the supermarkets will continue to be open for the foreseeable future- you can't shut down people's access to food supplies, you will always be able to get food.

 

It impinging on your personal freedom is bloody annoying for everyone but I'd rather spend a few months away from my friends than see scenes like this every day for weeks.

 

 

Image Enlarger

Image Enlarger

 

We are living in unusual, unknown times- the world has never been as connected and as small as it is now. To believe that we can continue living the way we were living a month ago is foolish, naive, selfish and incredibly dangerous. For the benefit of ourselves, our families, friends and the rest of the world- we have to suck it up and listen to what is coming through from the WHO and other organisations- stay indoors. Some people, as proven in every country, won't listen to that, therefore we have to impose lockdowns!

 

Fortunately, as Americans, if your government goes completely totalitarian on you, your guns will now be useful. A win for the second amendment! 

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Turn Left At Greenland said

Your freedom doesn't matter when you're dead.

Ever heard of "Give me liberty or give me death"? ahdn_george_06

But that's a personal choice, not one made for you by someone else for the sake of their freedom.

But much more to the point than that, your freedom to put others at risk is not genuine freedom. To any libertarians who think that this is a matter of freedom vs. security, I would like to remind you of the harm principle: you can do whatever you want, so long as it doesn't hurt others.

Exactly what I was trying to say. john-lennon-salute_gif

You have a right to die for freedom, but you can't put others in harm's way for the sake of your freedom. Sorry if I sound like a broken record. ahdn_paul_01

AppleScruffJunior said

You're thinking as if humans are rational, very economist of you 😉 Unfortunately, we're not.

 I know we're not, that's why I was wishing wistfully that we were a-hard-days-night-paul-7

Fortunately, as Americans, if your government goes completely totalitarian on you, your guns will now be useful. A win for the second amendment!   

You know it! a-hard-days-night-john-6paul-mccartney-thumb_gif

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Ron Nasty said

@Dark Overlord said

When it comes to dealing with the coronavirus, i i think those who prefer their freewill should be able to go on with their lives as usual but those who prefer their safety should have the right to sign a contract in which they are confined to their house with either paid leave or work from home (any employer that fails to comply or attempts to fire their employee to circumvent this can get up to a month in jail per person denied this right) and they'd be given food and supplies via drone and they'd put a black towel on their front door to signal that no guests are allowed.

While it's definitely a crazy idea, i think it's much better than doing nothing or taking away everyone's freewill.

So, you think a short term loss of freedom isn't worth it for preventing thousands of deaths? This isn't a few weeks and it's over. This is this year. What you're suggesting is that even if you carry the virus but show no symptoms it doesn't bother you how many people die, even if family members you love, because you'd rather passing on the virus than spending a while with restrictions on your freewill?

I wonder whether you'll feel the same in a month?

  

What i'm trying to say is that those who want safety should get it, but those who want freewill should get it to. It would mean that the quarantine for those who choose safety might last a little longer but as Beatlebug said, those who would sacrifice freewill for safety deserve neither.

Beatlebug said
That's a dilemma for us more liberty-minded individuals for sure, and a big concern of mine is that, like many so-called "emergency" measures, such things won't just go back to their prior state after the emergency is over. People like to hang on to power once they've got it, and crises are always an excellent opportunity to put things over that would never normally fly.

At the same time, people have been absolutely ridiculous going out and partying like it's still 2019, and if the government does nothing to protect people who are doing the best they can, but being put at unnecessary risk by other stupid people, then that does seem like a failing and they'll have to answer to their constituents.

My centrism is hurting my brain I have to stop a-hard-days-night-paul-7

  

While there will certainly be permanent effects to the lockdown (businesses are already shutting down permanently, leaving many out of a job), the lockdown is very expensive so it's very unlikely that the government will continue the lockdown once the virus is over.

I do agree about taking personal responsibility though. While i strongly oppose most government intervention, i also think we should take some basic precautions like washing our hands, staying home if you're sick, and not creating large crowds.

Turn Left At Greenland said

Beatlebug said

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." – a quote I normally agree with, and I think local governments threatening people with flamethrowers is a bit alarming to say the least. But it's hardly libertarian to put other people at risk. Why can't people just be responsible and self-isolate, so the government doesn't have to make them do it at gunpoint? a-hard-days-night-ringo-14

It's a dilemma for us more liberty-minded individuals for sure, and a big concern of mine is that, like many so-called "emergency" measures, such things won't just go back to their prior state after the emergency is over. People like to hang on to power once they've got it, and crises are always an excellent opportunity to put things over that would never normally fly.

At the same time, people have been absolutely ridiculous going out and partying like it's still 2019, and if the government does nothing to protect people who are doing the best they can, but being put at unnecessary risk by other stupid people, then that does seem like a failing and they'll have to answer to their constituents.

My centrism is hurting my brain I have to stop a-hard-days-night-paul-7

  

Your freedom doesn't matter when you're dead. But much more to the point than that, your freedom to put others at risk is not genuine freedom. To any libertarians who think that this is a matter of freedom vs. security, I would like to remind you of the harm principle: you can do whatever you want, so long as it doesn't hurt others. I can't think of a moral libertarian maxim. But guess what: in a pandemic like this, failing to socially distance actually hurts other people. In perhaps no other situation is a single individual's actions so consequential for the rest of society. 

Pandemics remind us that we live in a society. We're not just a bunch of isolated individuals going about our business: we are a giant and complex network of social interactions, and when things like this virus get into that network, everyone's actions count. 

  

Good point but unless you're intentionally trying to spread the disease, i don't think it's fair to apply the phrase here as there's no intent to hurt anyone in the same way that you should have the right to do drugs, even if getting high could make you kill someone.

AppleScruffJunior said We are living in unusual, unknown times- the world has never been as connected and as small as it is now. To believe that we can continue living the way we were living a month ago is foolish, naive, selfish and incredibly dangerous. For the benefit of ourselves, our families, friends and the rest of the world- we have to suck it up and listen to what is coming through from the WHO and other organisations- stay indoors. Some people, as proven in every country, won't listen to that, therefore we have to impose lockdowns.

But the problem with that is the possibility that those who are responsible for the lockdown responding by storming Buckingham Palace and dethroning Boris and the Queen, declaring the UK to be an anarchist state. It might seem crazy but government is worthless if enough people retaliate and groups like ANTIFA are already encouraging crime so it's very possible, especially considering how many times it's happened before (US, Russia, Venezuela, India, etc.).

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25 March 2020
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^Good luck storming Buckingham Palace if you want to dethrone the Queen, DO. She's out at Windsor. I wouldn't fancy trying to get through her guards either.

 

If you catch her, you still have to get rid of Charles in Scotland and Wills and Kate in Norfolk, Harry and Meghan being in Canada puts an even bigger stopper in your plans. 

 

Edit: My over-eager skimming made me realise you're taking about a government overthrowing the monarchy. Well the Tories would lick the Queen's toilet if she asked them, so I don't think she's at risk from them.

 

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25 March 2020
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AppleScruffJunior said
^Good luck storming Buckingham Palace if you want to dethrone the Queen, DO. She's out at Windsor. I wouldn't fancy trying to get through her guards either.

 

If you catch her, you still have to get rid of Charles in Scotland and Wills and Kate in Norfolk, Harry and Meghan being in Canada puts an even bigger stopper in your plans. 

 

Edit: My over-eager skimming made me realise you're taking about a government overthrowing the monarchy. Well the Tories would lick the Queen's toilet if you she them, so I don't think she's at risk from them.

  

Can Harry be King, I thought him moving to wherever he went meant he had lost the lineage? Not that I paid much attention as I didn't care. Listening to so many slate Meghan for being utterly evil and forcing Harry to make a decision that a) he wouldn't have otherwise, b) she was a nasty foreigner so how dare she does anything against this proud upright upstanding country and c) was robbing the UK of a true hero and role model, bored me senseless at such shit being utter by supposedly clever people.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

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