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Philosophy
18 January 2020
9.25am
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Ahhh Girl
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I just wish more careers could be started with apprenticeships instead of university. Work a lot. Have some classroom time thrown into the mix. Like Ringo when he was an apprentice joiner. I say this knowing I work at a university.

It's a vicious cycle. More people get degrees so employers start wanting people with a degree so more people want to get a degree. And on it goes. Business want people who are "trained" right out of university, but universities can't train people for every nitty-gritty detail of every office. They can only do big-picture training. Employers aren't willing to do that training (ie apprenticeships). I can understand somewhat because people are prone to switch jobs often.

I don't pretend to have all the answers as to which fields of study should or shouldn't require degrees, but surely we could work it out.

States in the US used to support higher education more (very low cost to students) because not many people went to university, and the degrees they earned were in subjects that required extensive specialized knowledge - doctors, lawyers, engineering, etc. Hey, but even those careers might benefit from more hands-on learning.

Also, it would be nice if more menial jobs were more highly regarded and compensated better (like hotel maids). But, that gets into the question of where do you get the $ to pay them more...cut CEO pay, give less money to investors (which maybe pension funds), or charge customers more.

Ah, a small mind trying to think big thoughts. I better hush.

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18 January 2020
9.54am
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Nice post AG apple01. I live in a school district that employs many progressive ideas. It just happens to be the same school district I grew up in. Among other things there is a huge "trade" school campus that you can elect to attend for 1/2 day. It teaches things like auto mechanics, office management, architecture/building, child care, etc... The idea is to place you in an internship right at graduation or to continue your training at one of the many community colleges with similar advanced classes. It's a good alternative to university for a lot of kids...

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18 January 2020
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The Hole Got Fixed said

Beatlebug said

QuarryMan said

Ah, shoot. I have to go to a lecture right now, but I will do a full response to this later.   

I can't tell you how many times I've said this to myself and then later got buried in other posts and never materialized a-hard-days-night-paul-7

Gee @The Hole Got Fixed, no wonder you haven't won "most respectful even through disagreements". I understand y'all are breathing up all that smoke down there and it can't be good for the temper, but I'm honestly rather disappointed that, after typing for an hour and a half, all you got out of it was "So whAt You're sAyIng iS fuck poor people". a-hard-days-night-paul-10

Of course I don't want to screw anyone over, but I also don't think government subsidies are always necessarily the best way to help people.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against all government programs -- there's a time and place for them, and they can certainly be lifesaving to people who have hit a pothole in the road of life. I might not be here if my mother and her family hadn't had food stamps to get them by when they first came to America. I am just contesting, on intellectual grounds, because I love to argue, your claim that it's "not fair to discriminate against poor people" (i.e. not give things away). Should you be a dick to someone because they're poor? Of course not. That's not what we're talking about.

You think it's not fair to leave people out in the cold, but I think by Nature's standards that is perfectly fair. It's not nice, but it's "fair". However, we humans have evolved a sense of empathy and responsibility to others, such that we don't want to leave people out in the cold, and that's a fine thing; but it isn't strictly "fair", either, to take from those who have to reward those who have been less disciplined or just had bad luck. It's a semantics issue.

Also Dark Overlord that's a very quaint fantasy but the human population is simply too large at this point for it to be feasible. I think with technology we can find better, progressive ways to be more efficient rather than regressing to a hunter-gatherer society.

  

paul-mccartney-facepalm_gifpaul-mccartney-facepalm_gif

Basically I was showing my view point in a jokey 'haha Look At Me I'm a zoomer' point of view - in fact I was quoting a meme I'd seen earlier in the day.

No hard feelings but sometimes a viewpoint expressed with a bit of humour, which is what I tried to do, does help an argument turn a little more light-hearted... and besides, no one had replied yet and I figured I may as well say something that could continue the thread.

 

And to be honest every time I open my mouth in this thread I just get yelled at anyway for some minor misunderstanding so I may as well leave this thread, and someone else can mod it - and as the other mods don't visit this thread either, it's up to you Bebu. Don't let it turn into Lord of the Fliesa-hard-days-night-george-10

  

HOLEY NO PLEASE DON’T LEAVE paul-mccartneypaul-mccartneypaul-mccartney your posts here are so eloquent and meaningful and amazing please don’t leave we need you here or at very least I want you here a-hard-days-night-paul-10

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18 January 2020
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I was talking with my friend about how the US senete used to be a non elected job but now it is. He thinks it should of stayed non elected. What do you guys think? 

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18 January 2020
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Starr Shine? said
I was talking with my friend about how the US senete used to be a non elected job but now it is. He thinks it should of stayed non elected. What do you guys think? 

  

What do you mean?

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18 January 2020
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sigh butterfly said
Nice post AG apple01. I live in a school district that employs many progressive ideas. It just happens to be the same school district I grew up in. Among other things there is a huge "trade" school campus that you can elect to attend for 1/2 day. It teaches things like auto mechanics, office management, architecture/building, child care, etc... The idea is to place you in an internship right at graduation or to continue your training at one of the many community colleges with similar advanced classes. It's a good alternative to university for a lot of kids...

  

How long has the district been doing this?

I think employers need to be better at interviewing. When I interview for an assistant cataloger, I give the candidates a test. My current assistant came to me about two years after I hired her and said that the tests I give are genius. She totally gets how the tests help me know who is best suited for the job.

Here's a question if anyone wants to bite: have university classes been "dumb ed down" over the decades as a broader range of the population have been admitted?

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18 January 2020
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Definitely agree that there should be more investment into apprenticeships/vocational education, seems like a great idea to me. University is a great pathway to many jobs, but there are many more jobs that don't require a degree, and those going into those fields should have the best training they can get. 

Starr Shine? said
I was talking with my friend about how the US senete used to be a non elected job but now it is. He thinks it should of stayed non elected. What do you guys think? 

  

Hmmmm, what did he say his reasons were? I'm very wary about anything that would make the US even less democratic than it already is, though of course the Senate isn't terribly democratic to begin with.

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18 January 2020
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50yearslate said 

HOLEY NO PLEASE DON’T LEAVE paul-mccartneypaul-mccartneypaul-mccartney your posts here are so eloquent and meaningful and amazing please don’t leave we need you here or at very least I want you here a-hard-days-night-paul-10

heartheart

Ok ok I'll lurk, just for you.

Might even post once a month 

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18 January 2020
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I just want to make sure that the jobs that don't require a degree are respected. Like janitors. Good ones make life so much more pleasant. Bad ones can make even a good day turn sour. Those folks need to be well-paid.

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19 January 2020
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Couldn't agree more a-hard-days-night-ringo-8

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sigh butterfly said
Nice post AG apple01. I live in a school district that employs many progressive ideas. It just happens to be the same school district I grew up in. Among other things there is a huge "trade" school campus that you can elect to attend for 1/2 day. It teaches things like auto mechanics, office management, architecture/building, child care, etc... The idea is to place you in an internship right at graduation or to continue your training at one of the many community colleges with similar advanced classes. It's a good alternative to university for a lot of kids...

  

My school has the exact same thing! They teach nursing, auto mech., culinary arts, carpentry, etc. and I have a ton of friends who go there! They even have an art-based option for artists who don't want to starve: advertising and design (it's basically all design though and it's very easy for students who come out of there to get a job right out of high school, lucky them.) They even can start working while during their senior year, if they have the requirements. I kind of regret not doing A&D, however, I don't want to mix up what I enjoy in my free time with work, because personally, that'll take the fun of it for me.....so instead I'm to college for electrical engineering. 

I also agree a lot with AG on the fact that careers like janitors need to be paid more, with all the stuff they have to deal with.

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21 January 2020
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Moved this post from this discussion in another thread (starting here and continuing on the next page) because I got terribly philosophical (this tends to happen when I'm PWT) and so I felt it should be here.

@50yearslate said
That’s a want, not a need

Did I not just say you need them in my next sentence? Yes, I did.

This is what police are for. And even if you do need to protect something, why does one person need multiple handguns? I’m afraid I don’t understand.

Police aren't totally ubiquitous and can't always get there in time, especially in remote rural areas. Usually, unless it's an urban situation where the police are already present, the police show up half an hour after everything's gone down to investigate what happened. Plus, the idea of having to rely entirely on governmental force to keep oneself and one's family and property safe is rather alarming. What happens if the police force becomes corrupted (which is a significant problem in many areas)? Even if your local police force is perfectly on the level and full of good people (which most are), you'd still be at the mercy of the state to safeguard your personal safety and property.

In re: question 2, different guns serve different purposes. Hypothetically, I suppose one might need one type of smaller handgun for one situation, such as convenient concealed carry, and another type of handgun for other situations (longer barrel=more accuracy).You might also need (not want a-hard-days-night-ringo-12) multiple guns to keep in multiple places, so that, in an emergency, you can get to it before it's too late.

Also, what if you buy one gun but it doesn't serve your purpose, so you have to get another one that actually works for you? There might be a loophole in the law for exchange, I don't know.

In general, though, I just feel like it's an unnecessary restriction on people's ability to purchase firearms that seems like a power grab more than anything and could possibly be a step toward greater restrictions. I know the slipperly sloperly fallercy is an oft-ridiculed talking point of the right, but in regard to gun control, it's not entirely without precedent.

Also, I'm listening to The Man Who Sold the World and 'Running Gun Blues' just came on, which is more about shell-shock than gun control, but it's still funny. ahdn_ringo_09

Not necessarily. The law could make it significantly more difficult for unlicensed people to access firearms, which could decrease the number of gun-related accidents or shootings.

Perhaps, but a) it's still an infringement on the natural rights of those people -- and yes, I know, we have to infringe on the rights of those who would infringe on the rights of others to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which brings me to b) it mostly makes it significantly more difficult for law-abiding citizens to access firearms, and because law-abiding citizens are not crazy and hell-bent on causing chaos, they are likely to be more deterred by such restrictions than someone who is crazy and hell-bent on causing chaos, who will probably find a way to access firearms.

Greater gun control doesn't necessarily mean lower levels of gun crime. On the contrary, there are far more shootings in urban areas with tight gun control such as Chicago and New York than in gun-laden areas like Texas. The reasons are many and complex, but I'm sure it has a lot to do with those cities' underlying crime and poverty problems, and perhaps one could argue that the tight gun control actually aggravates the problem by making it harder for law-abiding citizens to acquire firearms, which means only the criminals end up with guns.

As for it not being the government’s place, I disagree. I think it is the government’s job to place restrictions on things in order to keep the country safe.

And this is where I can never agree. At its most essential level, the government's job is to safeguard the natural rights of its citizenry, and place restrictions on anything and anyone who might infringe on those rights. (This includes maintaining law and order, of course, because criminals are criminal precisely because they infringe on the rights of others.) Beyond that, adult citizens of a country are free to exercise their rights at their own discretion. The key here is that with power and liberty comes responsibility, and it is up to you, the individual citizen, to be responsible, and the government should encourage that by providing information (e.g. nutrition labels, smoking warnings, etc.) and encouraging education.

Now, I'll certainly concede that our government performs a few other functions, such as maintaining parks and roads and other public facilities, and maintaining a social safety net (I'm not an extreme libertarian, I'll concede that the social safety net certainly does provide invaluable services, although there are many aspects about it which I think could stand reform and I prefer it to be more at a local level than federal, generally speaking, but that's another topic).

But, essentially, it is not the government's job to take care of you. That is your job as a responsible, fully capable adult citizen (not you personally, Fiddy, not yet anyway ahdn_george_06). This is exactly the same argument I'd use to defend the legalization of various drugs and such controlled substances, such as marijuana and nicotine and alcohol. There are certainly some restrictions that can and arguably should be placed on various things for the good of society, but we must always be alert that the good of the many should not involve the sacrifice the rights of the individual -- the smallest minority of all.

That said, it’s ridiculous that Kinder Eggs are banned in the US yet guns are (for the most part) totally legal...  

I'm not entirely sure about all the details of that or how analogous the two example are, but it's safe to say you can usually get us libertarian or classical liberal types to agree that less regulation is probably not a bad thing in general. a-hard-days-night-john-6

@lovelyritametermaid said

Starr Shine? said
Honestly if we are talking about sport and protection. Getting a gun should be a hard as getting a car. We force all car owners to learn driving safety yet we don't do the same for guns which are just as deadly.

Agreed. I do believe that citizens have a right to carry a gun for self-defense (as much as they have the right to drive), though the means by which they go about getting one and learning how to use one should be regulated so as to help further prevent unnecessary gun violence. There should be a minimum age requirement  (which will actually be somewhat helpful, unlike the bloody nicotine minimum age...stupid government regulating when I can start buying Juul pods.....a-hard-days-night-ringo-12) to prevent teens from using guns irresponsibly, as well as background checks (a touchy subject because people want privacy and blah blah blah other bullshit even though they already surrender all their data over to corporations and the government when they use Google, Facebook/Instagram, TikTok, etc...), and substantial training/safety instruction (much like Drivers Ed but, y'know, for little handguns that can kill someone in seconds.....which a car can also do but you get my point). A person's permit to carry a gun should also be able to be revoked due to "bad behavior" (also similar to driving, as you can get your license revoked due to "bad behavior")   

This is an interesting point and a valid one. I certainly agree that people should be better educated and trained in regards to the proper care, handling, and usage of guns -- this fits in with what I was saying above about great responsibility and whatnot. The better people are trained to handle guns, the more respect they'll have for guns as dangerous weapons, and the more likely they'll be to handle them with discretion and respect -- in other words, safely. I myself intend to take a concealed carry course soon, which of course teaches you all the things you need to know about safely not shooting yourself or anyone/anything else in the foot or anywhere else before you can apply for a concealed carry permit, because I think it's important knowledge to have. (I also really want to shoot the little shooty balls at the little printed circle thingy or whatever, because I think that sounds like it would be fun [with ear protection of course, not much fun if you're going deaf], but that's another story. a-hard-days-night-george-9)

HOWEVER -- I'm rather wary of this being a strictly regulated thing on the federal level. I feel like that's just too close to infringing on the Second Amendment, especially the permit-revoking bit. The reason I'm wary is because, you have to understand, the purpose of the Second Amendment doesn't just concern self-defense -- it's also intended as a balance against a potentially tyrannical government. If the government can in any way disarm its law-abiding citizenry, they have the upper hand. I'm not saying we should just leave things as they are and hope people will learn of their own accord, but I think that there might be a better way to encourage desirable responsible behaviors than just making something mandatory. What that solution might be, I don't know and I'm way too PWT to think of anything really constructive or specific right now, but I'm sure at the very least a good ad campaign couldn't hurt. I'm visualizing the "LOCK UP YOUR GUNS" billboards already. a-hard-days-night-george-10

ALSO -- signing up for Google, Facebook/Instagram, and TikTok is technically voluntary, so you can stay away from those tech platforms and retain some modicum of privacy; using Google or Facebook isn't a right*, whereas you have a natural right to own a firearm, and theoretically you should be able to exercise that right without infringing on your other natural right to privacy.

Holy shit, I should be a lawyer or politician. It's half past midnight, I'm going to bed. ahdn_george_05

Edit: This whole discussion makes my guitar in my avatar look an awful lot like some kind of weapon ahdn_paul_02 it's not a gun, or that kind of axe, I swear a-hard-days-night-paul-4

*Although it could be argued that, since so much of public discourse is conducted on platforms like Twitter, these platforms are the public square of the 21st century and therefore everyone should have a right to access them or it's an infringement on their First Amendment rights to free speech, but that's a WHOLE other argument which goes into private company rights, tech censorship, publisher vs. platform debate, monopolies, and a whole fuckton of other shit.

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I kind of agree with Beatlebug on this one, particularly with regards to the police. Personally, I'd rather have the ability to defend myself in the moment than having to wait (whilst I'm potentially robbed or murdered) for some officers to show up twenty minutes later, probably not do anything, and then probably shoot my dog or something (US Department of Justice estimates police kill 25-30 family dogs per day).

Plus, the police in the UK and US have a long history of awful behaviour, such as racial profiling and domestic abuse, so I wouldn't generally trust them to apply the law fairly. 

Still, I don't think guns should have zero regulation, in the same way I don't think legalised drugs should have zero regulation. In my opinion, one of the best things about legalising drugs is that it gets them out of the black market and into legitimate production and distribution where it can therefore be ensured that they are safe to use, and that the people buying them aren't about to OD or something. Similar logic should apply to guns, IMO. 

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Wow, that is very long. A lot of interesting points made but I’m running late so I will return later with a longer post.

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Car licenses aren't regulated federally but all require time and practice before obtaining a licenses. I don't see why we can't make gun as tough as cars.

 

They are run by states but have a federal baseline to work off of.

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50yearslate said
Wow, that is very long. A lot of interesting points made but I’m running late so I will return later with a longer post.  

I know, I kinda went overboard. It took me like an hour and a half to write, all in all. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

QuarryMan said

Still, I don't think guns should have zero regulation, in the same way I don't think legalised drugs should have zero regulation. In my opinion, one of the best things about legalising drugs is that it gets them out of the black market and into legitimate production and distribution where it can therefore be ensured that they are safe to use, and that the people buying them aren't about to OD or something. Similar logic should apply to guns, IMO.   

Exactly. I'm not saying guns should have zero regulation, either, and they don't -- for instance, assault rifles are outright banned for civilian use. I've simply been arguing that the laws passed in Virginia weren't the right regulations, were too overbearing, and the protests were at least somewhat justified. (And also everything else I've been arguing about because I love to argue. ahdn_john_08_gif)

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Ahhh Girl said

sigh butterfly said

Nice post AG apple01. I live in a school district that employs many progressive ideas. It just happens to be the same school district I grew up in. Among other things there is a huge "trade" school campus that you can elect to attend for 1/2 day. It teaches things like auto mechanics, office management, architecture/building, child care, etc... The idea is to place you in an internship right at graduation or to continue your training at one of the many community colleges with similar advanced classes. It's a good alternative to university for a lot of kids...

  

How long has the district been doing this?

I think employers need to be better at interviewing. When I interview for an assistant cataloger, I give the candidates a test. My current assistant came to me about two years after I hired her and said that the tests I give are genius. She totally gets how the tests help me know who is best suited for the job.

Here's a question if anyone wants to bite: have university classes been "dumb ed down" over the decades as a broader range of the population have been admitted?

  

The vocational center opened near the end the the 1960s. I checked it out and it's still going strong but the name has been changed to the Silicon Valley Career Technical Education Center. It appears to have the same objective, but of course some of the original professions (such as operating a printing press) no longer exist.

Yes I agree.  I was a hiring manager for 20 years and learned that motivation/determination were much more critical qualities for success than higher education. Also I worked with a lot of immigrants who sometimes had it all; motivation, determination plus a degree from their country of origin.

My daughter recently graduated from a major university and almost all of her classes were graded on a curve. She had to take several science classes for her engineering degree that the pre-meds were also required to take. The engineering group figured out which classes the pre-meds would be in order to avoid competing with them for the grades. She said there were a few classes where nobody earned over 50%, which would be an F if not for the curve. It did make me wonder why the teachers weren't more concerned about their failing methods, as most of these kids were in the top 90% of their high school in academic grades and SAT scores. 

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25 January 2020
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Harking back to an old conversation between many of us, Wigwam was saying how only 97% of the scientific community agrees about climate change and that it's man made.

Well, I (my dad actually) just came across proof that they're wrong - researchers have tried to replicate the results of those reports, and they couldn't. Read this article in whole to actually get the details I'm leaving out:

https://qz.com/1069298/the-3-o.....ll-flawed/

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25 January 2020
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It drives me crazy that there are still some people who “don’t believe” in climate change. It’s like not believing in wildfires.

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