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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
21 October 2019
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Ahhh Girl said
I'd like a link to the study.

I was watching this summary of the study's findings today, it reminded me of this conversation, so when I came back to the thread saw your post and realised I never actually posted it. Apologies for that, but I hope you find it interesting. The video summarises it pretty well, and it has some cool animation. 

I think this one is the study itself; I couldn't find it on my computer, so I had to google it. 

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30 November 2019
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@50yearslate also said in another thread which I'm not derailing

I mean, I don’t know, I just feel like abortion is sort of a more important issue? Like more of a pressing matter, since it involves medical procedures and women’s rights and I feel like marijuana useage is less pressing. I mean, I’d rather have the freedom to make decisions about my own body than the freedom to get high.  

I am now going to do my best to poke holes in your argument because it is overly simplistic (not a judgement, just an observation) and I feel inspired to provide some pushback.

First of all, the freedom to get high does involve making decisions about your own body, since getting high involves your body. (I'm being pedantic here. Forgive me. a-hard-days-night-john-6) a-hard-days-night-george-4a-hard-days-night-george-4a-hard-days-night-george-4

Second, and more importantly, you do have the freedom to make decisions about your own body. If you don't want to have sex, you don't have to. If you get pregnant, that fetus is not your body anymore. This shouldn't just apply to women, either, because men are half responsible for the creation of a fetus, so don't come at me saying 'But men get to have sex without consequences and it's not fair!' If men aren't being held to task, then no, it isn't fair. Both partners should be equally responsible for whatever consequences come of their actions. Furthermore, if you're using birth control and condoms and all that good stuff -- all I can say is, if the lil spermies manage to make it past all those barriers to get to the lil eggy (which they sometimes do), then it really must be meant to be.

Personally I'm kind of a fence-sitter when it comes to abortion legality, but for me the debate is purely legal and not really arguable from a moral standpoint. I think that if you want to end the life of the fetus you helped create, then there's a good argument to be made that that shouldn't be the state's business (although I think the father should definitely have a say), but that doesn't make it any less of what I would consider a moral wrong. I don't think it's the state's job to dictate morality, though, which is why I have strong libertarian leanings on the issue.

(I also try to avoid loaded language as much as possible: 'it's the woman's body/choice' vs 'baby killing', you get the idea. Sidenote pet peeve: I also hate that the debate is framed as 'pro-life' vs 'pro-choice', which clouds the whole debate with moral baggage. As far as I'm concerned, you're either pro-abortion-legality or against-abortion-legality.)

I fully expect to be roundly attacked for expressing this opinion, but I haven't had a good politisophical* debate in a while and I guess I'm in the mood for it. ahdn_george_01

*portmanteau of political and philosophical

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30 November 2019
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While i agree with you on the grounds that i'm morally pro life but legally pro choice (so long as it's done within the 1st 20 weeks and not tax funded). However, i disagree on a few points:

Beatlebug said
I think the father should definitely have a say

As much as i respect you standing up for men, the fetus is inside the woman's body so i think it's best to give the mother the final say.

I hate that the debate is framed as 'pro-life' vs 'pro-choice', which clouds the whole debate with moral baggage. As far as I'm concerned, you're either pro-abortion-legality or against-abortion-legality

I'd take out the phrase legality and just say pro abortion, anti abortion, or somewhere in the middle. This way, there's no reason for opponents to use demeaning phrases like anti choice or pro death and since there's numerous middle positions to be had on the issue (typically 1 of these 4: morally wrong but should be legal, legal up until a certain point, or only legal in cases of rape or if the life of the mother depends on it, or as long as the woman pays for it).

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30 November 2019
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A couple things.

I don’t like this “if the sperm is resilient, it was meant to be!” argument. That’s not at all factual. And abortion is not just an issue for people who chose to have sex, got pregnant on accident, and chose not to have the baby- it’s also an issue for people who have been raped or people who are not able to go through with the pregnancy for medical reasons or any other set of circumstances- there is no way to account for all the scenarios which can be imagined.

And as for the father having a say, that’s all well and good but they’re not the one who has to carry a baby inside their body for nine months and then squeeze it out of a very small hole. 

Plus, I don’t think a predominantly male government should be responsible for making this decision on behalf of every woman in the nation.

And it’s important to keep in mind that making abortion legal doesn’t mean it becomes required. No one will force you to get an abortion if you don’t want one, but it’s an option that should be available to the people who need it.

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1 December 2019
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It was about 24 years ago......As it happens she was a nurse....We'd decided a month before 'the call' that we'd had fun together but we wouldn't take things further and it was best to 'kiss this thing goodbye' 

When the call came from her saying she was pregnant it was a shock! Her thoughts were that she wanted a termination but would carry the baby if that was what I wanted and I thought that we could get back together.

I asked how many weeks she thought she was and could I have a day to think about this? (I'd already decided that it was best for yours truly for her to have an abortion......Pure selfishness I hadn't a single thought for what we in effect would be doing)

She was a nice woman  but I didn't love her and couldn't imagine getting married again..As usual my naturally suspicious mind was working overtime!! Was this a ploy? Moral blackmail? There was lots of opportunities to lose a 'baby' that didn't in reality exist..... after we got back together......Did she want money? I'm a complete shit you see.

Anyway next day I met her and she showed me her test result....We decided together it would be an abortion and we'd split the cost, get it done privately and I'd stay with her the first night to make sure she was ok and there were no complications......

I drove her to a clinic in Wimbledon and waited...... When it was done she told me it had been a boy.......The date was June 14th....His birthday!

I've done a lot of things I've felt guilty about.......And before I've done them I've known I'd feel guilty afterwards.....Not this!! The guilt came out-of-the-blue.

She felt the same......I put a CD on in the car......'Driving with the Brakes on' by Del Amitri....It's all about never knowing if you love someone if you're always holding back to protect yourself.......But then the lines came....

'Trying to keep the mood right

Trying to steer the conversation from

The thing we've done.....'

We looked at each other and both filled up.......

Complete and utter selfish shits you see....

I was in my 40s and I hadn't 'grown up' yet.....

 

So ??

I agree there are reasons where abortion can be the right choice....But mostly it's probably wrong........Certainly I/we had no right to kill this baby.

I think of him every June and say 'sorry'....without a strong faith I don't know who I'm saying sorry to. 

1 December 2019
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The problem is, there are so many situations where an abortion is the best option that to make it illegal is really an awful thing to do, but yes there are some instances where it may not be the best option.

Beatlebug said

50yearslate also said in another thread which I'm not derailing

I mean, I don’t know, I just feel like abortion is sort of a more important issue? Like more of a pressing matter, since it involves medical procedures and women’s rights and I feel like marijuana useage is less pressing. I mean, I’d rather have the freedom to make decisions about my own body than the freedom to get high.  

I am now going to do my best to poke holes in your argument because it is overly simplistic (not a judgement, just an observation) and I feel inspired to provide some pushback.

First of all, the freedom to get high does involve making decisions about your own body, since getting high involves your body. (I'm being pedantic here. Forgive me. a-hard-days-night-john-6) a-hard-days-night-george-4a-hard-days-night-george-4a-hard-days-night-george-4

Second, and more importantly, you do have the freedom to make decisions about your own body. If you don't want to have sex, you don't have to. If you get pregnant, that fetus is not your body anymore. This shouldn't just apply to women, either, because men are half responsible for the creation of a fetus, so don't come at me saying 'But men get to have sex without consequences and it's not fair!' If men aren't being held to task, then no, it isn't fair. Both partners should be equally responsible for whatever consequences come of their actions. Furthermore, if you're using birth control and condoms and all that good stuff -- all I can say is, if the lil spermies manage to make it past all those barriers to get to the lil eggy (which they sometimes do), then it really must be meant to be.

Personally I'm kind of a fence-sitter when it comes to abortion legality, but for me the debate is purely legal and not really arguable from a moral standpoint. I think that if you want to end the life of the fetus you helped create, then there's a good argument to be made that that shouldn't be the state's business (although I think the father should definitely have a say), but that doesn't make it any less of what I would consider a moral wrong. I don't think it's the state's job to dictate morality, though, which is why I have strong libertarian leanings on the issue.

(I also try to avoid loaded language as much as possible: 'it's the woman's body/choice' vs 'baby killing', you get the idea. Sidenote pet peeve: I also hate that the debate is framed as 'pro-life' vs 'pro-choice', which clouds the whole debate with moral baggage. As far as I'm concerned, you're either pro-abortion-legality or against-abortion-legality.)

I fully expect to be roundly attacked for expressing this opinion, but I haven't had a good politisophical* debate in a while and I guess I'm in the mood for it. ahdn_george_01

*portmanteau of political and philosophical

  

Sorry but what has that got to do with the argument? Granted I'm PWT but that's an opinion about consent not abortion?

If someone wishes to have sex, then no one has any right to say they can't (provided it's consensual). If that means they end up with a fetus by accident? They should have the right to an abortion before they bring a life into this cruel world that their parents may not even be able to feed them in...

Unless they were negligent and didn't use protections, in which case things get blurry... but imo an abortion should still be offered then, but just not paid for by the government (or something like that to incentivise birth control/contraception)

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In countries where abortion is not legal, women who are unable to go abroad to get an abortion (generally due to financial restrictions or their country banning travel for abortion) die. 

 

Last year a woman died in Argentina after inserting parsley into herself to induce a miscarriage.

Women use knitting needles and coat hangers puncturing their uterus and potentially bleeding to death. They throw themselves down stairs. They go to backyard abortionists who accidentally kill them.  

Three out of four abortions that occur in Africa and Asia are unsafe.

Seven million women in developing countries are admitted to hospital each year because they have undergone unsafe abortions. 

47,000 women die annually from unsafe abortions.

Women will want to terminate their pregnancy if they feel they cannot cope with being pregnant, have relationship problems, risk the shame and exclusion from their society because of their pregnancy, or simply do not want a child - whether abortion is legal in their country or not, abortions will occur.

By not allowing legal, safe abortions with a qualified doctor in a safe, sanitary doctor's practice, women will die for reasons that are entirely avoidable or they will suffer complications that could permanently disable them. 

Denying the right to safe termination of pregnancy is allowing the death of vulnerable women who feel they have no other direction to turn to.

Of course, the most important thing to prevent abortions in any country are comprehensive, detailed sex education and free contraceptives for everyone (regardless of age). But even with these, a few cases will fall through the gaps and abortion should be the available third option for those who don't wish to continue their pregnancy. 

 

If you are personally pro-life then that's fine, I have no qualms about that however, if you want to ban abortion nationwide and therefore make ANY woman turn to dangerous ways to induce a miscarriage, then I don't know what to say to you.

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50yearslate said
Plus, I don’t think a predominantly male government should be responsible for making this decision on behalf of every woman in the nation.

I don't think that's fair to say. Sure, a bit of non-forced diversity in the courtroom would be nice but it's more of a left vs right issue than a male vs female issue as there are plenty of pro abortion men and anti abortion women but not a lot of pro abortion Republicans or anti abortion Democrats (although quite a few will argue that it's morally wrong but should be legal for reasons ASJ stated in her post)

And it’s important to keep in mind that making abortion legal doesn’t mean it becomes required. No one will force you to get an abortion if you don’t want one, but it’s an option that should be available to the people who need it.

They won't restrain you and strap you to a chair but women are often coerced into having an abortion by their boyfriend/husband/parents/etc. and not wanting to be homeless, they'll have the unwanted abortion. This is extremely wrong but unfortunately, it's hard to prove that they're doing it.

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@50yearslate said
I don’t like this “if the sperm is resilient, it was meant to be!” argument. That’s not at all factual.

I was being a little bit facetious there, my apologies.

And abortion is not just an issue for people who chose to have sex, got pregnant on accident, and chose not to have the baby- it’s also an issue for people who have been raped or people who are not able to go through with the pregnancy for medical reasons or any other set of circumstances- there is no way to account for all the scenarios which can be imagined.

Rape is my exception to my general moral stance against abortion. In those cases you certainly cannot hold the mother accountable for what has happened, so it's a little bit different. As for the health of the mother, well, that's a big fuzzy grey area. In that case, you have to decide whose life is more important, the mother's or the child's? I don't have all the answers and I freely admit that I don't have an answer to this one.

And as for the father having a say, that’s all well and good but they’re not the one who has to carry a baby inside their body for nine months and then squeeze it out of a very small hole. 

I believe the father should be held more or less equally responsible for the child as the mother is. That includes having a say in the decision to end the child's life as well as being the parent to the child if the mother decides to keep it. With power comes responsibility and all that. Dave Chappelle pointed out that, if the mother has the right to terminate the child, then the father has the right to abandon it. I don't think either of those things are the right thing to do, although I recognize that there will be non-ideal situations in which people make bad choices or are forced by circumstances beyond their control to make those choices.

Plus, I don’t think a predominantly male government should be responsible for making this decision on behalf of every woman in the nation.

As @Dark Overlord already pointed out, it is predominantly a left/right issue and there are plenty of 'pro-life' women and 'pro-choice' men. Just because someone is a man doesn't mean they can't understand and be sympathetic to women's issues, and just because someone is a woman who understands and is sympathetic to women's issues doesn't mean they might have a different idea about whether abortion should be legal. Humans as a rule don't live in a vacuum, know and can empathize with other people of the opposite sex, and are capable of reasoning outside of their own personal experience. Also, women have had the right to vote since, what, 1920? So aren't they half the ones voting this government into place in the first place? Just a thought.

And it’s important to keep in mind that making abortion legal doesn’t mean it becomes required. No one will force you to get an abortion if you don’t want one, but it’s an option that should be available to the people who need it.  

Lol NO ONE implied any such thing. It goes without saying. That's not the argument here. paul-mccartney-facepalm_gif

@The Hole Got Fixed said
If someone wishes to have sex, then no one has any right to say they can't (provided it's consensual). If that means they end up with a fetus by accident? They should have the right to an abortion before they bring a life into this cruel world that their parents may not even be able to feed them in...

Unless they were negligent and didn't use protections, in which case things get blurry... but imo an abortion should still be offered then, but just not paid for by the government (or something like that to incentivise birth control/contraception)

My point was to refute Fiddy's claim that a woman does not have a right to make decisions about her body if she can't get an abortion. The way I see it (and maybe my perspective on this is colored by the fact that I don't experience sexual attraction, or maybe I just generally believe in self-control), putting yourself into a situation where you could potentially get a baby is a choice that you have made about your body. Furthermore, the fetus is not your body, it is a body inside your body. Now, it does implicate your body quite a bit, I'm not denying that, and I'm not advocating we should all start teaching abstinence-only sex ed as a rule because I hear through the grapevine that that doesn't work. Of course you have the right to have consensual sex! It's your body, it's your choice. But the fact remains that sex is an act, the biological function of which is to create life, and so it has consequences and should not be taken lightly. That's all I was saying.

I also believe there are better ways to deal with an unwanted baby than to just yeetus the fetus, but that's another conversation.

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Dark Overlord said

50yearslate said

Plus, I don’t think a predominantly male government should be responsible for making this decision on behalf of every woman in the nation.

I don't think that's fair to say. Sure, a bit of non-forced diversity in the courtroom would be nice but it's more of a left vs right issue than a male vs female issue as there are plenty of pro abortion men and anti abortion women but not a lot of pro abortion Republicans or anti abortion Democrats (although quite a few will argue that it's morally wrong but should be legal for reasons ASJ stated in her post)

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I don't think it's male vs. female, I just don't think it's a decision that affects men and so they shouldn't be the ones responsible for making it. 

And it’s important to keep in mind that making abortion legal doesn’t mean it becomes required. No one will force you to get an abortion if you don’t want one, but it’s an option that should be available to the people who need it.

They won't restrain you and strap you to a chair but women are often coerced into having an abortion by their boyfriend/husband/parents/etc. and not wanting to be homeless, they'll have the unwanted abortion. This is extremely wrong but unfortunately, it's hard to prove that they're doing it.

  

How do you know it's true, then? Sorry, but I'll need a little more evidence/convincing before I view this as a valid point.

Beatlebug said

@50yearslate said

I don’t like this “if the sperm is resilient, it was meant to be!” argument. That’s not at all factual.

I was being a little bit facetious there, my apologies.

That's all right.

And abortion is not just an issue for people who chose to have sex, got pregnant on accident, and chose not to have the baby- it’s also an issue for people who have been raped or people who are not able to go through with the pregnancy for medical reasons or any other set of circumstances- there is no way to account for all the scenarios which can be imagined.

Rape is my exception to my general moral stance against abortion. In those cases you certainly cannot hold the mother accountable for what has happened, so it's a little bit different. As for the health of the mother, well, that's a big fuzzy grey area. In that case, you have to decide whose life is more important, the mother's or the child's? I don't have all the answers and I freely admit that I don't have an answer to this one.

And this is my point. A nationwide abortion ban will make it so much harder for women who have been raped/women whose lives are endangered by the fetus to get the care they need. Even if there are exceptions for fetuses conceived through rape, what are they going to have to do, *prove* they've been raped? I can't see that as being effective. By banning abortion everywhere we're cutting off so many options. 

And as for the father having a say, that’s all well and good but they’re not the one who has to carry a baby inside their body for nine months and then squeeze it out of a very small hole. 

I believe the father should be held more or less equally responsible for the child as the mother is. That includes having a say in the decision to end the child's life as well as being the parent to the child if the mother decides to keep it. With power comes responsibility and all that. Dave Chappelle pointed out that, if the mother has the right to terminate the child, then the father has the right to abandon it. I don't think either of those things are the right thing to do, although I recognize that there will be non-ideal situations in which people make bad choices or are forced by circumstances beyond their control to make those choices.

You're certainly entitled to that belief, but I'm afraid I don't share it. I think the father should have some say, of course, but ultimately the decision should be up to the mother as a) they have to carry the baby and b) if they choose not to keep it they're the ones who have to undergo surgery. This falls into the category of "women not having control over their bodies." I don't see why someone else should get to decide whether or not a woman has to carry and birth a 5 to 12 pound baby. I'm sorry, but that is no one's decision but that woman's.

Plus, I don’t think a predominantly male government should be responsible for making this decision on behalf of every woman in the nation.

As @Dark Overlord already pointed out, it is predominantly a left/right issue and there are plenty of 'pro-life' women and 'pro-choice' men. Just because someone is a man doesn't mean they can't understand and be sympathetic to women's issues, and just because someone is a woman who understands and is sympathetic to women's issues doesn't mean they might have a different idea about whether abortion should be legal. Humans as a rule don't live in a vacuum, know and can empathize with other people of the opposite sex, and are capable of reasoning outside of their own personal experience. Also, women have had the right to vote since, what, 1920? So aren't they half the ones voting this government into place in the first place? Just a thought.

See my response to DO's point above.

And it’s important to keep in mind that making abortion legal doesn’t mean it becomes required. No one will force you to get an abortion if you don’t want one, but it’s an option that should be available to the people who need it.  

Lol NO ONE implied any such thing. It goes without saying. That's not the argument here. paul-mccartney-facepalm_gif

I never said you implied it. I'm just putting it out there.

@The Hole Got Fixed said

If someone wishes to have sex, then no one has any right to say they can't (provided it's consensual). If that means they end up with a fetus by accident? They should have the right to an abortion before they bring a life into this cruel world that their parents may not even be able to feed them in...

Unless they were negligent and didn't use protections, in which case things get blurry... but imo an abortion should still be offered then, but just not paid for by the government (or something like that to incentivise birth control/contraception)

My point was to refute Fiddy's claim that a woman does not have a right to make decisions about her body if she can't get an abortion. The way I see it (and maybe my perspective on this is colored by the fact that I don't experience sexual attraction, or maybe I just generally believe in self-control), putting yourself into a situation where you could potentially get a baby is a choice that you have made about your body. Furthermore, the fetus is not your body, it is a body inside your body. Now, it does implicate your body quite a bit, I'm not denying that, and I'm not advocating we should all start teaching abstinence-only sex ed as a rule because I hear through the grapevine that that doesn't work. Of course you have the right to have consensual sex! It's your body, it's your choice. But the fact remains that sex is an act, the biological function of which is to create life, and so it has consequences and should not be taken lightly. That's all I was saying.

But you don't get to choose whether you become pregnant, do you? There are plenty of couples who can't get pregnant no matter how hard they try and plenty who get pregnant on accident, not by choice. I'm not saying it should be taken lightly, but then again, who am I to say it shouldn't be? I don't have the right to make decisions about other people's sex lives. It's a free country, after all.

I also believe there are better ways to deal with an unwanted baby than to just yeetus the fetus, but that's another conversation.

  

yeetus the fetus good lord i'm dying

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1) Abortion is an issue that does affect men, although not directly as it does women. Men are, after all, partly responsible for the pregnancies that are or aren't aborted, and men have women in their lives whose well-being they care about. I don't have a refined, detailed answer as to how much say the father should have, as it is after all the woman who has to carry the child for 9 months, but I just don't think it's fair if they have none whatsoever.

2) RIP Fiddy ahdn_george_05apple01

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50yearslate said

Dark Overlord said
I don't think that's fair to say. Sure, a bit of non-forced diversity in the courtroom would be nice but it's more of a left vs right issue than a male vs female issue as there are plenty of pro abortion men and anti abortion women but not a lot of pro abortion Republicans or anti abortion Democrats (although quite a few will argue that it's morally wrong but should be legal for reasons ASJ stated in her post)

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I don't think it's male vs. female, I just don't think it's a decision that affects men and so they shouldn't be the ones responsible for making it.

The human population is half male and half female meaning that half of all aborted fetuses are male (or would've been had they not been aborted), so i disagree that it doesn't affect men but even if it did, that would mean we'd have to ban able bodied people from making laws about people with disabilities, ban cis straight people from making laws about LGBT+ people, ban whites from making laws about POC's, etc. which would mean appointing temporary judges and a biased jury, something i and many others refuse to have here in the US on the grounds that it goes against the very fabric this country is built upon.

They won't restrain you and strap you to a chair but women are often coerced into having an abortion by their boyfriend/husband/parents/etc. and not wanting to be homeless, they'll have the unwanted abortion. This is extremely wrong but unfortunately, it's hard to prove that they're doing it.

How do you know it's true, then? Sorry, but I'll need a little more evidence/convincing before I view this as a valid point.

https://www.nationalreview.com.....life-help/

https://www.her.ie/news/parent.....ion-368578

https://www.feministsforlife.o.....ans-story/

https://slate.com/human-intere.....anger.html

https://savethestorks.com/2017.....ears-heal/

The Hole Got Fixed said
If someone wishes to have sex, then no one has any right to say they can't (provided it's consensual). If that means they end up with a fetus by accident? They should have the right to an abortion before they bring a life into this cruel world that their parents may not even be able to feed them in...

Unless they were negligent and didn't use protections, in which case things get blurry... but imo an abortion should still be offered then, but just not paid for by the government (or something like that to incentivise birth control/contraception)

My point was to refute Fiddy's claim that a woman does not have a right to make decisions about her body if she can't get an abortion. The way I see it (and maybe my perspective on this is colored by the fact that I don't experience sexual attraction, or maybe I just generally believe in self-control), putting yourself into a situation where you could potentially get a baby is a choice that you have made about your body. Furthermore, the fetus is not your body, it is a body inside your body. Now, it does implicate your body quite a bit, I'm not denying that, and I'm not advocating we should all start teaching abstinence-only sex ed as a rule because I hear through the grapevine that that doesn't work. Of course you have the right to have consensual sex! It's your body, it's your choice. But the fact remains that sex is an act, the biological function of which is to create life, and so it has consequences and should not be taken lightly. That's all I was saying.

But you don't get to choose whether you become pregnant, do you? There are plenty of couples who can't get pregnant no matter how hard they try and plenty who get pregnant on accident, not by choice. I'm not saying it should be taken lightly, but then again, who am I to say it shouldn't be? I don't have the right to make decisions about other people's sex lives. It's a free country, after all.

If a boy and a girl have consensual sex without properly protecting themselves first, it's they're fault if they get pregnant. That'd be like trying to build something, not reading the instructions, and then blaming the company when you messed up. I'm not saying that getting pregnant is bad or that women should be denied legal access to abortion but i think both the mother and father need to take responsibility and own up to their mistakes.

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Beatlebug said
1) Abortion is an issue that does affect men, although not directly as it does women. Men are, after all, partly responsible for the pregnancies that are or aren't aborted, and men have women in their lives whose well-being they care about. I don't have a refined, detailed answer as to how much say the father should have, as it is after all the woman who has to carry the child for 9 months, but I just don't think it's fair if they have none whatsoever.

Fair enough.

2) RIP Fiddy ahdn_george_05apple01

  

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I think abortion should be legal primarily for my belief that nobody is entitled to anybody else's body without their (ongoing) consent, but that doesn't mean I like abortion or want it to happen, so my approach would be to try and reduce it through comprehensive sex education, easy access to contraception and also wider economic reform so that young couples feel that if they keep the pregnancy they will be able to support the child. 

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I don't think anyone wants to have an abortion but rather they screwed up, had a child they're not ready for, and don't know what else to do. If we were to make less women want an abortion by offering free adoption services and reduce unwanted pregnancies with comprehensive sex ed classes that don't pressure children into abstaining from sex, then i think we could make abortion so rare that it's a non-issue.

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Agreed. An abortion is not a thing to take lightly and we should absolutely try to reduce the number of necessary abortions. I think a thorough and comprehensive sex education and easily attainable contraceptives are probably a decent way to do that. But I still think it should be legal for the people who really need it.

Of course, there are anti-abortion people who also support abstinence-only sex education, and I don’t even know what to say to them. ahdn_paul_01

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This is why we need to invent male pregnancy. Then the fathers rights won't matter since everyone's the mom.

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Completely agree with you guys. Additionally, if you're strongly anti-abortion, then this seems like a more pragmatic way to reduce abortions because it's pretty clear that a blanket ban on abortions would make them as rare as a blanket ban on recreational drugs has made them.... in other words, if you make it entirely illegal then it will happen anyway, and just be less safe, whereas if you keep it legal but take comprehensive, tried and tested steps to make it as rare as possible, you can do that anyway without even GETTING to the whole debate over bodily autonomy.

As for the people who support blanket ban as well as abstinence only sex education, I just think they're completely out of touch with reality.

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A few thoughts on, particularly, the situation in the US.

What is yet to be commented on is the relationship between abortion and other aspects of sexual health - be that contraception, the morning-after pill, or sexual education - and the religious right which largely drive America's conservative positions on sex.

Lots of talk about, and support for, easy access to contraception and good sexual education but many of those groups who are anti-abortion are also anti-contraception and anti-sex education. They are fighting those at the same time as they fight abortion.

Obamacare mandated health insurance include free access to contraception except with a very few exceptions based on the employers religious standing (a Catholic church could exempt its employees since mainly drawn from the same faith group, a Catholic hospital which drew its employees from across multiple faiths and none couldn't).

Trump overturned this last year, letting insurance companies and employers again refuse free access to contraception - with threats of boycotts and protests pressurising companies to withdraw free access to contraception.

Good sex education and free access to contraception is important to any reduction in the rates of abortion. There is a higher rate of abortion among lower-income, lower-educated groups (that isn't in any way judgemental, just a statement of fact) and yet a powerful section of those against abortion are also determined to prevent access to contraception to those who can least afford it, whilst also wanting the state to stay out of sex education for everyone.

Though it should be noted that many State Supreme Courts have already struck down many States attempts at restricting abortion as being against the Constitution and Federal law; the day is approaching when abortion law is back before the US Supreme Court, and a decision is made to overturn, or not, Roe vs. Wade

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Overturning Roe v Wade would be a terrible thing for the US, in my opinion. I hope it never gets to that stage.

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