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Philosophy
6 September 2019
8.07pm
Wigwam
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My son went to a prestigious Aussie school and I went along with him to the college uniform shop.....Cost me an arm and a leg...

However two things:

After the initial first year he could pick up grown-out-of 2nd hand stuff through the college 2nd hand shop at a fraction of the price...So it became a cheaper option than being a 'dedicated follower of fashion'

Secondly something we noticed when.....His mum and I met up back in Oz for his Final Presentation, (as she, an Aussie herself had gone back to the UK for work when he was 16 and I'd retired to Thailand when he was 8 to be closer to OZ....We'd met up both coming from overseas for his Final Presentation dinner.....My son had decided not to return with his mum to the UK at 16 and boarded alone in Oz because of course he wanted to play for the school's football 1st team.....Fortunately that worked out....But I respected it was a brave decision on his part.

At his final presentation.....having shot up after his 16th birthday he was now 6 ft 2' but he was still squeezed into the same blazer I'd purchased 6 years before.....His mum and I looked at all the other kids in their sparkling new or recent blue and white striped blazers.......Then at each other and felt unworthy. Only seeing him on holidays we hadn't thought about his blazer being tight, tired and threadbare.....My son of course didn't give a monkeys.....neither did the other kids.....He played for the 1st team after all.......'Clothes do no not maketh man' .......And a object lesson if you like  in uniform being a leveller. 

6 September 2019
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Ahhh Girl
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Would anyone argue that both skirts and pants should be allowed and that anyone could wear whichever one they wanted?

6 September 2019
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QuarryMan
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School uniform sucks. There's no better way to suppress individuality than to make you look identical to the hundreds of people around you.

Since sex and gender issues got brought up in another thread, I figured I should give my take on it here.

On sex, contrary to some suggestions, sex (which is biological) ISN'T binary. In years gone by, it was easy to view it that way, because understanding of the subject was pretty much limited to genitalia. However, scientific consensus is now that sex is determined by a combination of corresponding sexual organs, hormones, and chromosomes. Therefore, sex is probably viewed better from a scientific perspective as a collection of non-exclusive characteristics, that most individuals share in two configurations known as male and female. To illustrate this, most of us assume that our chromosomes line up with our physical characteristics of sex, but through the process of karotyping (from Wikipedia, karotyping is the process by which cytogeneticists take photographs of chromosomes in order to determine the chromosome complement of an individual) many people discover that they don't in fact line up in this way. It amuses me that people who believe in a sex/gender binary love to go on about "it's just fifth grade biology" or something similar, because science taught to children/young teenagers is often drastically oversimplified in order to make it accessible and easy to understand. 

On gender, contrary to some suggestions, gender (which is not inherently biological, though in most cases they line up) also isn't binary. I'll write more on this at some point soon, but for now the time zone exhaustion is hitting me, so I'm gonna just save this post and maybe edit it soon. 

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6 September 2019
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Ron Nasty
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Firstly, @Ahhh Girl, it's a UK school and the uniform is trousers. If a UK school had a uniform policy that only pants could be worn on the lower half... a-hard-days-night-ringo-6ahdn_john_08_gifa-hard-days-night-george-10

Myself, I see no problem with making the uniform policy trousers only for boys and girls, especially in the teenage years when your hormones are raging and you're starting to become sexually aware. I went to a boys school, but I had friends who went to mixed-sex schools, and I can remember male friends commenting on girls legs, and female friends who'd complain about pervy boys staring at their legs all the time, barring skirts cuts down on that.

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6 September 2019
8.47pm
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Ahhh Girl said
Would anyone argue that both skirts and pants should be allowed and that anyone could wear whichever one they wanted?  

Absolutely. The way they're enforcing it, you could argue that it isn't even gender 'neutral' but rather enforcing masculine dress (trousers), which is quite the opposite of any kind of gender liberation -- I'd imagine that there are many girls and maybe even a few boys who would like to wear skirts, and preventing them from doing so is rather oppressive in my opinion. And then of course there's the cost issue to worry about, and I also heard that the whole dress-code enforcement is distracting everyone from the truly important task at hand of learning. I'm all for liberty, but this ain't it -- rather the opposite. I really don't think enforcing gender neutrality is the way to go, but rather to allow greater freedom of choice.

Edit: Made this post before I saw RN's. He does bring up a good point about skirts perhaps being too, erm, provocative for an academic environment when kids reach a certain age, which kind of defeats a large part of the purpose of uniforms in the first place. I guess my main problem with this is that it's being presented as if it's because mUh trAnS rIgHts (when most trans people would probably be happy with just the opposite-sex uniforms) and/or as a gender liberation thing, when really it's just more restrictive. That's not necessarily a problem if the restrictions are being put in place for some legitimate reason such as that RN brings up.

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6 September 2019
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Ron Nasty said
Firstly, @Ahhh Girl, it's a UK school and the uniform is trousers. If a UK school had a uniform policy that only pants could be worn on the lower half... a-hard-days-night-ringo-6ahdn_john_08_gifa-hard-days-night-george-10

Myself, I see no problem with making the uniform policy trousers only for boys and girls, especially in the teenage years when you're hormones are raging and you're starting to become sexually aware. I went to a boys school, but I had friends who went to mixed-sex schools, and I can remember male friends commenting on girls legs, and female friends who'd complain about pervy boys staring at their legs all the time, barring skirts cuts down on that.

  

Punish the girls for the boys’ lack of maturity, why not? I say, if the girls want to wear skirts, let them wear skirts. If the boys want to wear skirts, that’s fine too. And if they want to wear pants, they can wear pants. So

Ahhh Girl said
Would anyone argue that both skirts and pants should be allowed and that anyone could wear whichever one they wanted?

  

Yes. Absolutely.

Love one another.

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6 September 2019
9.19pm
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50yearslate said

Punish the girls for the boys’ lack of maturity, why not?  

Well, boys do mature later than girls. ahdn_john_08_gif

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6 September 2019
9.22pm
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Ron Nasty
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These are pants in the UK, @50yearslate:

pants.jpgImage Enlarger

Not sure they're suitable as the only thing you're wearing on your lower half when you go to school.

a-hard-days-night-george-10

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6 September 2019
9.23pm
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Well, @Ron Nasty , I certainly hope they’re wearing pants

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6 September 2019
9.28pm
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Ron Nasty
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Well, there are those who like to go commando (not wearing underwear), @50yearslate, but that doesn't matter so long as you're wearing trousers...

ahdn_john_08_gifa-hard-days-night-george-10

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6 September 2019
9.31pm
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EA72B86B-16E3-4E29-8025-28FA95527283.jpegImage Enlarger

^these are pants

733DDD93-BF06-44F8-B6EF-A8918005E6D1.jpegImage Enlarger

^these are also pants

 

7282BF29-1C1D-4ACD-A28D-041A45097933.jpegImage Enlarger

^these, too, are pants

If someone wants to wear any (or all) of these to school, there’s nothing wrong with that mccartney-shrug_01_gif

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6 September 2019
9.41pm
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Ron Nasty
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They are pants in US-English, @50yearslate, in UK-English they are trousers.

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6 September 2019
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50yearslate
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Yes, @Ron Nasty , you’ve made that very clear. But I don’t really want to debate the best words to describe the article of clothing worn on the legs (terrible description, I know, let me live) I’m just trying to make my opinion clear, using the language that is natural to me which I know you understand. paul-mccartney-thumb_gif

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6 September 2019
10.40pm
Wigwam
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QuarryMan said
School uniform sucks. There's no better way to suppress individuality than to make you look identical to the hundreds of people around you.

Since sex and gender issues got brought up in another thread, I figured I should give my take on it here.

On sex, contrary to some suggestions, sex (which is biological) ISN'T binary. In years gone by, it was easy to view it that way, because understanding of the subject was pretty much limited to genitalia. However, scientific consensus is now that sex is determined by a combination of corresponding sexual organs, hormones, and chromosomes. Therefore, sex is probably viewed better from a scientific perspective as a collection of non-exclusive characteristics, that most individuals share in two configurations known as male and female. To illustrate this, most of us assume that our chromosomes line up with our physical characteristics of sex, but through the process of karotyping (from Wikipedia, karotyping is the process by which cytogeneticists take photographs of chromosomes in order to determine the chromosome complement of an individual) many people discover that they don't in fact line up in this way. It amuses me that people who believe in a sex/gender binary love to go on about "it's just fifth grade biology" or something similar, because science taught to children/young teenagers is often drastically oversimplified in order to make it accessible and easy to understand. 

On gender, contrary to some suggestions, gender (which is not inherently biological, though in most cases they line up) also isn't binary. I'll write more on this at some point soon, but for now the time zone exhaustion is hitting me, so I'm gonna just save this post and maybe edit it soon. 

  

The more we learn about the biological make up of the sexes the more we find that there are differences.

6 September 2019
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Beatlebug said

50yearslate said

Punish the girls for the boys’ lack of maturity, why not?  

Well, boys do mature later than girls. ahdn_john_08_gif

  

I'm nearly 67 and I haven't matured yet......

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6 September 2019
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Ron Nasty said
These are pants in the UK, @50yearslate:

pants.jpgImage Enlarger

Not sure they're suitable as the only thing you're wearing on your lower half when you go to school.

a-hard-days-night-george-10

  

Superman never really got the hang of underpants.......

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6 September 2019
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50yearslate said
Yes, @Ron Nasty , you’ve made that very clear. But I don’t really want to debate the best words to describe the article of clothing worn on the legs (terrible description, I know, let me live) I’m just trying to make my opinion clear, using the language that is natural to me which I know you understand. paul-mccartney-thumb_gif

  

He might be upset or triggered by your insistence on using your vocabulary........Would it hurt you to conform to his???

7 September 2019
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Wigwam said

QuarryMan said

The more we learn about the biological make up of the sexes the more we find that there are differences.

... okay? what does that have to do with the existence (or lack of existence) of a binary?

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

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7 September 2019
8.17am
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QuarryMan said

Wigwam said

QuarryMan said

The more we learn about the biological make up of the sexes the more we find that there are differences.

... okay? what does that have to do with the existence (or lack of existence) of a binary?

  

Could you re-phrase or simplify you're question........and maybe amplify the point you're  trying to make......This subject seems to be well within your 'wheelhouse' ....I'm sure we will all learn something from you.

For me it's a simple case of men are basically 'masculine' and women are basically 'feminine'.........My view then is that essentially men and women are different but complimentary......The result of thousands of years of evolution......

I'm not saying these differences are exclusive......Just, I suppose, that they roughly follow the 80/20 rule......

The grey areas in-between and those that overlap are of only a cursory interest to me and that's without making a value judgement in any way.

My point was a simple response to your erudite and learned post 1554 which seemed to say, at least to me, (correct me if I'm wrong), that you were suggesting that science was finding more and more similarities between the two main sexes..Whereas I've read that as we learn more....more differences have and are being identified.......

Perhaps you were concentrating on the group that don't fit rigidly into masculine or feminine norms......ie non binary.

No doubt you can turn the warmth of your countenance upon us and bathed in its glow....... everything will be clarified. 

 

Cheers........

7 September 2019
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Ahhh Girl
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I've liked wearing skirts and dresses all my life. I would have hated having that option taken away from me as a young person. I hope no one tries to take it away from me now. paul-mccartney

Anyone if free to wear skirts and dresses...much cooler and breezier on hot days.

However, I would send anyone home from school if the hemline was too short. In my perfect world, the hemline would have to fall somewhere between just below the knee to the ankle.

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