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Philosophy
9 August 2019
3.47am
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QuarryMan
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Wigwam, I don't think Trump used the word Africa, but he did say 'the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came'. Given that he has already referred to African countries as 'sh*thole countries', I don't think this particular semantic has done him any favours. 

To be honest, I agree with Holey, this will just turn into unpleasantness if we continue, but I would like to have more discussion so if anyone has any topics they'd like to talk about that would be great.  

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9 August 2019
4.43am
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Alright, what do we all think of the Chinese crackdown on the Hong Kong protests?

I think it spells trouble for Hong Kong, and the remaining ounce of democracy left in the communist regime there. Protesting is normal... they seriously can't expect people to not do that, surely??

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9 August 2019
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50yearslate said
That makes no sense for (at least) 2 reasons. First of all, you’re ignoring the fact that Trump was assuming they came from someplace besides the US because they weren’t white, signifying racist ideology. Second of all, the president of the United States is not in the business of comedy and his remark was not ironic, unlike Paul’s lyric which was not serious. Your logic is very weak.

  

So words that are 'racist' can be seen as purely comic.........You're beginning to understand.

I judge Trump objectively and logically by what he does.......Ive seen no evidence of Trump's administration doing anything other than lifting up the 'lot' of African Americans...Hispanics, Asians and women in the workplace.

The minorities see that too and the Dems are losing their iron control of the black vote......

Not long to wait ..........I hate to disappoint the Chinese who'd love to see 'China Joe' take over but Trump will win another 4 years......Why not? The US is flourishing.

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9 August 2019
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Flourishing? That depends on your metrics. Trump likes to point to unemployment rates and the success of the stock market, but 13+ million have to work multiple jobs to pay their bills and his trade war with China recently led to stocks falling to the worst they've been all year just a few days ago. When you look at it in metrics that actually impact ordinary working people, Trump's claims of the 'best economy ever' look foolish: 15 trillion mortgage debt, 1.6 trillion student loan debt, 1 trillion credit card debt, 8 million people behind on their car loans, welfare spending through the roof, 40% of the population struggling to pay their bills and 80% of workers working paycheck to paycheck. Inflation continues while the federal minimum wage hasn't been raised since 2007.

Trump's economy will of course benefit the ultra rich. The beauty is in how he sells it to ordinary people to convince them that it will benefit them. Hilariously, Republican states are the ones who are most dependent on the federal government. 

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9 August 2019
8.54am
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Also, I'm very worried about Hong Kong. I think their slow slide into the Chinese Communist Party's dictatorship is inevitable and it's becoming clearer and clearer.

It verges from the sublime to the ridiculote

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9 August 2019
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ScarlettFieldsForever
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Thanks, Holey, for bringing up the topic.  Bit waste of time endlessly arguing about Trump.

There are reasons to stay optimistic about the Hong Kong protests. The citizens are brave, and have developed their own strategy against the police. Technically, destroying HK’s autonomy status brings no good to CCP, for they need it as an international financial center to look after their own interests. However, given the threatening figure of the current Chinese authority, I’m literally afraid that they won’t care about the consequences and use military crackdown to strengthen their rule(and it happened before). It seems that the government still shows no intention of direct confrontation to HK people’s demands, understandable considering democratic reform is included.

Personally speaking, I feel frustrated, even bit of desperate seeing people following propaganda against the HK protests every day. The CCP is going to extremes, in its autonomous districts, also against Hong Kong and Taiwan.

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9 August 2019
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Wigwam said

50yearslate said

That makes no sense for (at least) 2 reasons. First of all, you’re ignoring the fact that Trump was assuming they came from someplace besides the US because they weren’t white, signifying racist ideology. Second of all, the president of the United States is not in the business of comedy and his remark was not ironic, unlike Paul’s lyric which was not serious. Your logic is very weak.

  

So words that are 'racist' can be seen as purely comic.........

I’m afraid I don’t understand? His lyric was literally making fun of racists. You can ‘see’ Trump’s statements as ‘purely comic’ all you want but they clearly weren’t meant that way.

You're beginning to understand.

No. No, I am not. At all. In any way. But I think Holey is probably right and we should change topics. Unfortunately I don’t really know anything about this new topic. a-hard-days-night-paul-10

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9 August 2019
6.36pm
Wigwam
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I didn't say Trump's comments were meant comically......Forget Trump if you can with regards to what I've been trying to illustrate.

My point throughout has been that words alone especially when contrary to the hard evidence do not necessarily a racist make.

 

 

As for Hong Kong....(Fragrant Harbour).....

The Chinese recently found and destroyed 10,000 maps purely because Taiwan was drawn on them. They are playing the long game as thoroughly as they can. They already have tremendous clout in Washington with Dems and Reps in their pocket... Hollywood, even to insisting on removal of some of the stickers on Tom Cruise's new Top Gun leather jacket.....(That's thorough) and silicon valley......Stealing what they can and encouraging American AI companies to start up in China partnered with a Chinese company who eventually will replace them.   Increasingly their Confucius centres set up openly in America's top universities are doing sterling  work on behalf of the Chinese government. The US is basically an innovation economy if the US can't profit from its inventions it hasn't got an economy.

Since they entered the World Trade organisation on tremendously favourable conditions which even then they've not seriously tried to conform with..They traded with the world (particularly with the US)  with tremendous one-sided advantages.

However your current President has been banging on about this issue for 20 years and is using the levers he posses to reign China in. People get this wrong...The US hasn't started a trade war.......It's belatedly entered into it. China has been unashamedly battering away at the US for decades..And the US never punched back.

US pressure is making China's pips squeak they are hanging on hoping that Biden preferably, but anyone will replace in 2020 the only President that has ever  fought back.

The US has advantages that nullify China's.......China own US bonds by the billions but selling them all off makes them worthless and affects their own currency, while the dollar is the world's reserve currency

..............China owns all the world's rare earths......They supply the world cheaply but raising the price or reducing production will mean that the US will then find it financially viable to dig out and extract them from more difficult sources.....(Also President XI's family own the rare earths business and he would take a personal hit).

China is growing its muscle .......Not only the South China Sea but in lending the money to countries that can't pay them back and building ports and roads with Chinese companies that they then take 99 year leases out on and effectively they become parts of China.

The South China Sea issue is causing Japan to re-think the parameters of its defence forces and they would certainly be a formidable enemy in any hot conflict......Unfortunately South Korea and Japan are at each others throats and that's to China's advantage.

The only effective check to China's coercion remains the US and a President that won't be intimidated.

As for Hong Kong..Slowly slowly China catches monkey 

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9 August 2019
7.12pm
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@Wigwam said
My point throughout has been that words alone especially when contrary to the hard evidence do not necessarily a racist make.

But it does show someone, knowing how those words are perceived, and repeatedly returning to them, that if not racist himself, is happy to use words he knows will be seen as racist in order to keep parts of of his base on side.

Something very cynical about knowingly stirring racial tension to gain votes.

It's like his suggestion of tying background checks to immigration laws in recent days. I'll do my job on gun safety if you do what I want on immigration. And what's worse is that one of his first Executive Orders he signed was to overturn Obama's Executive Order that background checks on mental health were needed for gun ownership.

Then he struts around talking about universal background checks (which he's already promised and shut up about once the NRA told him no) and complaining about mental health checks not being made when he abolished Obama's Executive Order that put it in place!

Feck! What hypocrisy!

I just cannot see why so many Trump supporters avoid the contradictions.

a-hard-days-night-paul-10

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9 August 2019
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You're having a laugh......The Democrats only card left to play is the race card....They are stoking division for all it's worth.

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9 August 2019
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You didn't refute a single point I made, @Wigwam.

I can back up my argument. You've just gone a-hard-days-night-paul-11

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9 August 2019
10.51pm
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I suggest you read my other posts on this subject......I'm always able to back up my opinions or I wouldn't hold them.

I'd assumed you'd taken note of the Dem's tactics which have been from the outset to attack Trump not his policies. I'll come to that again latter.

I'm sure you'll know all this

A potted history, (from memory) of the playing of the race card in the US.

For at least the century before 1968 and Johnson's Civil Rights Act both parties have played the race card. From the Civil War until 1968 it was the Dems. In 1922 I recall reading how Dem operatives tried to smear W Harding by saying he had black forbears......It didn't work.

The Reps, the party of Lincoln were traditionally more open to the black voters. For decades the Dems dominated the southern states and produced some of the most repulsive racists such as the unforgettable Senator Bilbo an open KKK member....Even Roosevelt felt he had to oppose an anti-lynching law because he was scared he'd lose the Southern states.

It wasn't until George Wallace stood so successfully as an Independent that the Souther States were taken away from the Dems and the presidency was handed to Nixon who went on and played the race card himself......

Eventually the party of Lincoln decided the only way it could avoid defeat after defeat was to abandon its principles. Reagans' first speech was in support of the 'State's Rights' speech a coded message to Southern voters we have your interests at heart.  

I won't go on.....Point is both parties have done it and do it. Pointing the finger at Trump and the Dems are pointing three fingers back at themselves.....

Since the demise of Stormy Stormy and Russia Russia the Dems have gone for the race card all out.

Trump undoubtably plays to his base the forgotten and tired of being despised 'deplorables who cling to their guns and the bible' The contempt of the elites on the West and East coast smacks of a new class war. They've had enough...Trump's message goes down well with them. Can some of his words be construed as racist? Obviously they can by those that want to see his words that way.

 

The Dems reject a generous DACA deal and fight the wall and border force they supported under Obama. They want the hispanic vote and with open borders new votes. They do all they can to pull black voters away...Trumps a racist, white Supremacist homophobic misogamist........

As I mentioned above go for the man and not the ball has been their tactic all along......aided and abetted by the upper echelons of FBI the DOJ and the CIA........

The race card is the last throw. Can't beat him....Make Trump unelectable......Boycott his supporters businesses Boycott gyms......Hound them out of restaurants.....cold shoulder them off the guest-lists in Hollywood......Fail to condemn Antifa's  violence and demonstrations outside senators houses calling for the leader of the Senate to be stabbed.......

Make it as hard as possible to openly support Trump

 

Trump is no more or less racist than any of his peers....He's an equal opportunities political attacker.....Black, white, male, female, gay or straight you punch he'll punch back harder .......

With the media and google effectively being wings of the Democratic party how he's resisted being brow-beaten into submission is almost heroic.

He loves his country.......I find him refreshing in that he's trying his best to deliver on the promises he ran on......For a politician that's as rare a rocking horse shit.   

10 August 2019
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Wigwam... the Parties SWITCHED. They SWITCHED. Bringing up the 'Party of Lincoln' and going back to the 1920s is ridiculous. Just compare the electoral college maps from 1948 and 1968. Whatever the Republican party used to be is irrelevant, because the Democrat support of Civil Rights in the 1950s/60s and the Republican nomination of Barry Goldwater and later Nixon and Reagan, all three of whom were raging racists. Do you think the racists who hated the Civil Rights Act all suddenly swapped states with their liberal contemporaries? 

Image result for electoral college map 1944Image Enlarger

Image result for electoral college map 1968Image Enlarger

"Are Modern democrats still racist? According to a survey among black voters from 1860, the answer is yes" a-hard-days-night-john-6

Also worth watching is this video, which pretty well debunks the idea that the parties didn't switch. 

Of course, we know the motivations behind the Southern Strategy perfectly well, as illustrated in this 1981 quote:

You start out in 1954 by saying, “N****r, n****r, n****r.” By 1968 you can’t say “n****r”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N****r, n****r.”

This is the foundation and voter base on which the Republican party of the last 50 years is built. It is no coincidence that their nominees keep accidentally saying racist things, or that they are supported by so many extreme white supremacists and whatnot. Your spiel about 'Trump doesn't care what your identity is' is just wishful thinking.

I think many of your criticisms of the Democrat party are valid. I'm not from the USA, but if I were then I would much rather align myself with 'the left' as a general concept rather than the party itself, which sadly is just as much a hotbed of corruption as the Republicans. Too many of them (Clinton and Biden, for a start) are most definitely out of touch elite career politicians. But thankfully the new wave of the party is almost entirely progressive and set to end the neoliberal nightmare that has dominated in the last few years. Everything that comes out of Mr Biden's mouth drops his poll numbers, meanwhile the excellent performances of candidates like Sanders and Warren has reshaped the party and made policies that were laughed at in 2016 commonly accepted. These are candidates that can actually appeal to Republican voters, and studies have found that Bernie is the preferred Democrat candidate of Trump voters. 

Bernie has popular appeal that can make him well received inland, as shown by the 2016 Democratic primary map between him and Clinton.

Image result for 2016 democratic primary mapImage Enlarger

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10 August 2019
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Ron Nasty: makes post criticizing Trump's policy inconsistencies

Wigwam: completely sidesteps this by complaining about how Dems don't criticize his policies

Seems like you're more interested in spouting talking points than actually addressing what other people said

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10 August 2019
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@Wigwam Your post is too much for me to take in but i'll point out a few things:

1. Lincoln wasn't this racial equality hero that everyone makes him out to be. Sure, he was against slavery but he still didn't think that black people should have equal rights. If he and his party did, then it wouldn't've taken an additional century for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to happen.

2. Democrats don't want open borders, they just want to loosen up the laws. Here's an article about Elizabeth Warren's stance on immigration and what she would change. In the article, she pretty much states that she would decriminalize illegal immigration, allow more refugees into the country, and only imprison and or deport those who she considers a threat.

3. Yes, it's undeniable that Trump loves his country but it's the only country he cares about.

@QuarryMan Great post but i thought i'd point out that the Republicans and Democrats are both right wing, the former being right wing conservatives and the latter being right wing liberals. The true party of the left is the Green party, which has a US branch.

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10 August 2019
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This morning I'd written a much longer reply that was timed out and after over an hours work I  frustratingly lost it all.... My post above was a potted 'potted' history which I stopped at Reagan I'd originally brought it up to the present day......but I'm not making an excuse as I think some of the criticisms of me from all of you above would have pertained none-the-less. I'm aware of the futility of my endeavour and the resistance I'm facing.

However, 

My point was not to sidestep merely to point out that over history both parties have exchanged the black and white cowboy hat and have played the race card. It's almost forgotten that the Dems were the party of the KKK and black allegiance to the democratic party is nowadays a given and the party considered racist at its heart is indeed the Republicans. I think I successfully made the point that that wasn't always the case and the answer isn't that simple. I thought reminding people of that contributed to my point that  both parties cynically exploit race divisions. The Dems are currently whipping up race hysteria but not in my opinion out of any genuine concern because I don't see evidence of its actual existence. If Trump is a racist he sucks at it, as his policies have advantaged all of the minorities.

It's merely a game to the Dem's. I firmly believe there's no virtue in it......They have to find a way to defeat Trump......History will show they want to achieve this by fair means or by foul.... It's politics!

Let's see what the report into the origins of the FISA report has to say. I doubt the left wing media will be paying it much attention. 

I may be guilty of 'spouting' Kaniffee... in your eyes.......I'm just giving an opinion that I see as reasoned and un-conditioned by groupthink. I have no dog in this fight it's purely an objective view.

Quarryman you make some good points....I actually used the quote from 50 years ago in my original post...(interesting that you decry my post for being set in the irrelevant past and then use a quote from before most of you were born). In Thai we would say: ('Waa da kow Ineow ben eng)...You say one thing but do another.

I don't try to argue either party is the more virtuous.....They will both fight each other for public support by any means at their disposal. That fact seems to be beyond anyone else's comprehension.

Trump says some stupid stuff......He gets full credit for that....The good things he says or does are just written off and brushed aside with no credit whatsoever.

As a lone voice supporting him here I know how he feels.......

Ah well that's life sometimes. 

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10 August 2019
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I think the problem is that there's 2 parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, that both suck and hate each other. If the Libertarians, Greens, and Independents had a say in things, political tensions would be significantly reduced and it wouldn't be a case of voting between 2 people who shouldn't run our country like it was in the 2016 elections. But one of the problems is that many Americans don't even realize there's other options because 3rd parties are rarely allowed in things like political debates, meaning that these people don't stand a chance unless they run as a Republican or a Democrat, creating a catch 22 scenario.

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10 August 2019
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I think there's certainly some truth in the above 

I have to say the quality of the 20 or so Dem candidates is woefully poor......It's as though someone somewhere scratched their heads and said 'Find me 20 candidate worse than Hilary'

I can only see any of them getting votes would not be out of merit but purely out of hate for Trump.

10 August 2019
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I said yesterday and I say it again today...
I hate to say it but I do think that this has descended into arguing for no real reason. Obviously there are members on here, myself included, who feel strongly about the matter, but it's at a point now where no one will change anyone else's mind.

I'm worried that before long, it'll get uncivilised.

Would anyone mind if we move on from this argument that seems to be going around and around in circles?

  

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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10 August 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said

I said yesterday and I say it again today...

I hate to say it but I do think that this has descended into arguing for no real reason. Obviously there are members on here, myself included, who feel strongly about the matter, but it's at a point now where no one will change anyone else's mind.

I'm worried that before long, it'll get uncivilised.

Would anyone mind if we move on from this argument that seems to be going around and around in circles?

  

  

Knowing I'm farting against thunder ....I've tried twice to move on....Writing  a longish post about Hong Kong, (which I've little interest in) but if others, including board administrators can't move on, I won't either..... Just how I'm made.

I'll have a look in in the morning and see developments.

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