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Philosophy
7 August 2019
10.45pm
Wigwam
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The examples are overwhelming and seems compelling....Add to the mix the talking heads of CNN and the ilk......It's a 'case that's open and shut milord' 

However you phrase your search you have to dig deep to avoid Google's algorithms and the plethora of published Trump racist media articles........ I think I ploughed through about 9 pages before results consistent with my search began to appear. 

Even in this is one, (the first I came across) is one of those annoying protected sites that ask you prove you're not a robot.........

https://www.redstate.com/patte.....s-garbage/

Some of what Trump has said is to me merely honest and unafraid ........ Some is distorted.......some is dishonest reporting. It suits the Dems after all to seize  on this 'killer-diller' retort and coincides neatly with the disappointment to them of Russia collusion. The left have for years bullied and shut down actual debate with that '(til now) failsafe of ..........'you're a racist'...Traditinally politicians clutch at their pearls and retire to the backwoods.

With Trump it hasn't worked so they've recently doubled down and added 'White Supremacist'

 

Trump is guilty of coarsening political debate he's got a big mouth and fights back when he's attacked......Naturally the swamp and the Dems don't like it..They've had an easy life until now.

Until you show me any racist policy employed by Trump in office I hold to my opinion. The borders were not open under Obama...The countries included in the so called muslim ban.....(Most muslim countries were in fact unaffected), was a list of dangerous unchecked muslim countries that the Obama administration drew up prior to Trump's presidency.

As I've said previously mass-shootings happened under Obama and other presidents.

Given the 2nd Amendment and quasi religious esteem it's held in......This is not a problem that's easily tackled.......No one has so far.

 

But like the border the Dems care more about not giving Trump a win than the country and so cross-party co-operation remains elusive. 

 

Ah well...... thanks for moving this

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7 August 2019
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So what you’re saying is that unless somebody introduces racist policies to government, they can’t possibly be a racist? Please do correct me if I’m misunderstanding. I really do hope I’m misunderstanding.

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7 August 2019
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Haven't certain courts judged his Muslim ban on immigration racist? Yes, he later got a higher court now loaded with Trump appointees to overturn that but that merely points out the problem with the highest judges being political appointees.

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7 August 2019
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I’m still pissed about the republicans blocking obama’s supreme court nomination. Certainly set the progress of america back

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8 August 2019
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50yearslate said
So what you’re saying is that unless somebody introduces racist policies to government, they can’t possibly be a racist? Please do correct me if I’m misunderstanding. I really do hope I’m misunderstanding.

  

An interesting way to phrase a question......It assumes so much and cleverly forces the reader to go along with your head shaking and exasperated perception of me..

By all means grab the virtue signaling high ground. But you haven't misunderstood me....Words matter but deeds matter more you've not addressed that question at all.

What policies has Trump introduced that are racist? Surely despite all the accusations the acid test of a racist is what he does.

Name and list his racist policies......

 

In 2016 Trump won 8% of the Black vote.

Rasmussen – the polling organization that came closest to calling the 2016 presidential election results – polls a wider and less politicized community. It announced on Twitter that black approval for Trump is now 36 percent – if not higher.

Trump is not an ideologue he's pragmatic and a problem solver a property entrepreneur from the real world ........Clinton said to minorities, with a little tear in his eye..... 'I feel your pain' Obama promised change but didn't deliver.

Desperate for attention I think it's the Dems that are stoking and inflaming race issues to divide and pull latinos and Blacks away from the Republicans.

It might work.....It's a dangerous game.

8 August 2019
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Wigwam said

50yearslate said

So what you’re saying is that unless somebody introduces racist policies to government, they can’t possibly be a racist? Please do correct me if I’m misunderstanding. I really do hope I’m misunderstanding.

  

An interesting way to phrase a question......It assumes so much and cleverly forces the reader to go along with your head shaking and exasperated perception of me..

Antagonize me all you like, I don’t care. I’ll phrase my questions any way I want to.

By all means grab the virtue signaling high ground. But you haven't misunderstood me....Words matter but deeds matter more you've not addressed that question at all.

So if I haven’t misunderstood you, then the only people even capable of being racists are lawmakers and politicians, since they’re the ones who can put policies into place. I’m just going to keep assuming that I am misunderstanding something here, because that’s bullshit. A person can be racist and hurtful with only their words and no ‘deeds’ at all, and their ‘deeds’ don’t have to be official policies to be harmful.

What policies has Trump introduced that are racist? Surely despite all the accusations the acid test of a racist is what he does.

As I’ve said, a person doesn’t need to create racist policies to be a racist. Here is the true ‘acid test’ of a racist, if you will:

0CEC79A8-A600-4A27-85FF-F0FB57C0D83C.jpegImage Enlarger

He has shown discrimination towards many different groups of people. His Muslim ban? It assumed all Muslim people/people from his seven suspect countries are terrorists. His repetitive referral to Hispanic immigrants as “bad hombres?” Assuming anyone of Latin American descent crossing into the US is up to no good. And of course, please don’t forget his racist belittling of four congresswomen. You may find this article interesting. 

Name and list his racist policies......

“Protecting the Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into the United States”— his immigration ban. There could be more, I don’t know, but I’m not exactly sure what you mean by ‘policy’ so I went with executive orders.

 

In 2016 Trump won 8% of the Black vote.

Oh, of course. Anyone supported by a piddling eight percent couldn’t possibly be racist! 

Rasmussen – the polling organization that came closest to calling the 2016 presidential election results – polls a wider and less politicized community. It announced on Twitter that black approval for Trump is now 36 percent – if not higher.

Again. That does not excuse his words and actions. What’s more, you’re forgetting that black people are not the only people affected by racism. What about his offensive comments about people such as Muslims and Hispanic people? 

Trump is not an ideologue he's pragmatic and a problem solver a property entrepreneur from the real world ........Clinton said to minorities, with a little tear in his eye..... 'I feel your pain' Obama promised change but didn't deliver.

Obamacare, anyone? You’re making a lot of very confident statements that you aren’t backing up. Why should I believe anything in this paragraph when I have no evidence that you know what you’re talking about?

Desperate for attention I think it's the Dems that are stoking and inflaming race issues to divide and pull latinos and Blacks away from the Republicans.

Or maybe the Democrats are merely trying to oppose racism and make the country a better and safer place for everyone. mccartney-shrug_01_gif

  

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8 August 2019
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I think Trump is a racist. Somebody who can look at what happened in Charlottesville and say that "there were very fine people on both sides" is definitely a racist in my book. Now, Trump supporters have spread a lot of nonsense about his response in an attempt to defend him, but this video does quite a good job debunking that. 

There's another point that I think is worth considering - it's pretty clear that Trump equivocates 'American' with being white. For example, the four Congresswomen of colour who he recently told to 'go back' to their own countries, even though three out of four are US born. When questioned on these remarks, he said "it doesn't concern me because many people agree with me". The same goes for the 'birther' myth he used his platform to promote, based on zero actual evidence, which claimed that Obama wasn't born in the US. 

Also, there's this slightly troubling quote: “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. … I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.” And by Trump's own admission, "the stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true.” 

But debating Trump's personal beliefs is beside the point in my opinion. The crucial element of this is the effect he causes. Like it or not, Trump has been a rallying figure for Nazis, fascists and racists. His election and rhetoric has shifted the Overton window to the far right and has emboldened people like the recent shooter in Texas. He is the chosen candidate of the alt right, for christ's sake. And before anyone says 'he can't chose who supports him', you can choose who supports you, because he certainly wouldn't have attracted that kind of... fanbase... if he didn't consistently use hateful rhetoric and promote hateful policies. 

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8 August 2019
2.47pm
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Actually, @QuarryMan i don't think his comments regarding Charlottesville were racist. What he meant by there are good and bad people on both sides is that those who were there to support historical preservation are good while groups like ANTIFA who clubbed the protesters and encouraged others to use physical violence are bad and i agree with him and even praise him a bit for having the balls to point this out.

The birther myth is really stupid, no white president has had to deal with his shit but all of a sudden a half black guy runs for president and the right assumes he was born in Kenya, demanding proof otherwise. Definitely racism.

@Wigwam Of course Trump's not going to enforce an explicitly racist policy, he'd lose most of his fanbase if he were to do so but that doesn't mean he's not racist. Personally, i define a racist as someone who thinks one race is superior to another and his comments and policies that are subtly racist seem to suggest that he's racist. Is he aware that he's racist, maybe not, maybe he genuinely thinks he isn't racist but deep inside, whether he knows it or not, lies a racist.

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8 August 2019
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Yeah, but I disagree on a couple points. Firstly, as dear Shaun explains in his video, the idea that it was a peaceful protest somehow hijacked by Nazis is nonsense. The whole thing was Nazi in organisation, advertisement and attendance. Here are a couple of posters for it:

Image result for charlottesville unite the right poster

Image result for charlottesville unite the right poster

Pretty explicitly fascist and anti-Semitic there.

And here's the attendance of the Friday evening rally, which according to Trump supporters was when the... erm.... non fascist statue protectors were out:

Image result for charlottesville torches

... Yeah. 

The use of violent action against fascists is a complicated and difficult issue, but Antifa are so frequently lied about that they've somehow become even more of a scapegoat than immigration... despite being a decentralised group with no formal leadership or organisation. Anyways, 92% of ideologically motivated homicide incidents" committed in the USA from 2007 to 2016 were motivated by right-wing extremism or white supremacism, so it's pretty clear that Antifa are not the bigger issue. Trump's comment wasn't as much reflecting reality as it was pandering to fascists by conflating them with those who fight against them. 

I also disagree with the idea that Trump would lose his fanbase if he was explicitly racist. I think his core cult (I'm not talking about the more moderate people here, mostly just his hardcore supporters) is so crazy at this point that they would follow him through anything. To quote Orwell's 1984:

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."

This is exactly what Trump has done to his followers: his constant attacks on the media and the repetition of 'fake news' has convinced his base that anything negative about him is a lie. As he said himself in 2016, he could shoot someone and not lose voters.

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8 August 2019
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Is Trump racist? 

Yes.

When you read articles like this one: https://www.washingtonpost.com.....edirect=on

and come to the conclusion that isn't racially motivated, do let me know what your conclusion on it is because I cannot possibly see another reason.

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@QuarryMan Thanks for those posters, it proves that the right are more to blame for the event going to shit then the left are. However, i still don't think the left was innocent in that event since ANTIFA calling for people to "punch a Nazi in the mouth" only made things worse.

As for your other point of how Trump wouldn't lose most of his fanbase if he enforced explicitly racist policies, you must remember that most Republicans are Christians and The Bible explicitly states that all people were created in the image of god, meaning that Republicans are typically against racism and ableism. So if Trump were to say revoke the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because he didn't want non-whites to be protected from racism, he'd lose at least 75% of his fanbase, leaving him with only the white supremacists.

@The Hole Got Fixed I think that's more of a case of Xenophobia than racism.

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8 August 2019
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Is Trump a racist? Don't know, don't care. There are sooooo many bigger problems to worry about in the world than whether the president harbors some internal racial animus. I'm watching people dying trying to cross the US-Mexico border, young men (mostly) becoming so hopeless and mentally unstable that they radicalize (left and right, it doesn't matter, it's all bad when taken this far) and want to kill themselves and others, and I ponder every day the increasing schism in Western society between those who seem to want to rewrite and whitewash history and popular culture with their own utopian ideals, and the reactionaries who jump on every tiny thing that could possibly be construed as an infringement like it's the next socialist Revolution -- then I see this endless back-and-forth and it's utterly trivial, pointless, and neither side is willing to change their minds so why don't we all just agree to disagree and, for the Americans among us, when ballot box day comes, we can exersize our rights in the only way that really matters. (Not that speech doesn't matter. Free speech is of utmost importance. But I, personally, place more stock in actions than in words.)

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8 August 2019
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Being over two threads and with so many to answer forgive me if I don't personally reply to all of you.

I hope what I say below as a general comment partially responds to some of you.

 

Scarlet Fields Forever said:

Ah yes...obviously...how can someone be a “racist” if they don’t keep black people as slaves or physically attack any colored citizens...Oh I forgot, if these attacks do happen, the reason can still be need of an “immigration reform”, as Trump said, not racism...
a-hard-days-night-george-10

Though I've heard it said, 'nothing is racist to a Republican;' and 'everything is racist to a Democrat'......Perhaps the truth lay somewhere in the middle.

  

I prefer to look at this issue this way: how you judge potential racism relates to your tolerance. If you’re greatly sensitive about equality and dignity of certain people, you won’t stand a tiny  difference. If you’re always understanding and have the endurance of a saint (after all you aren’t going to be the victim), you won’t even blink an eye on someone threatening congresswomen to get back to Africa. Me, for my own and my conscience’s benefit, would like to set the bar a little higher than the current level.

(Apologies for some potentially offensive words)

 

Two things here on this......

I asked SFF if Trump actually used the words 'get back to Africa' As of now I've not read an answer to that question.

A simple search will show Trump didn't didn't say 'Get back to Africa'. So SFF added the word 'Africa' either knowingly and for effect, or perhaps he'd read someone else misquoting and quoted the misquote. There's so much swirling around on this subject since the demise of the Russia probe.....Quoting a misquote would be perfectly understandable. 

That being the case it demonstrates how the chatter and these 'Chinese whispers' snowball.

My first point then is that not all you read or hear in the news is completely factual.

Now my second point.......If Trump had actually said, 'Get back to Africa' would it prove Trump is a racist? (I'm assuming a big yell of 'Hell yes it would' to that question).

The common assumption here is that if you say something that someone considers racist you're a racist....case closed.

I maintain you can say something 'racist' and not actually be a racist.....Which is how I see Trump.

 

Fittingly here's an example of exactly that...........

 

 

Paul went on to write Ebony and ivory.......Was that just a smokescreen? Trump denounced white supremacy his comments were written off as shallow and insincere. Honestly he can't win with the left media.....Who look for and can only believe the worst of intentions.

An example:

After the mass shooting by right and left wing nutters Trump asked for the flags at the Whitehouse to be flown half mast until the 8th of August. Ah they pounced the 8th letter of the alphabet is 'H'.......Trump was signalling 'H H' or Hiel Hitler.......To the white supremacists.

 

People do this....To use another Beatles analogy........The Paul is Dead myth.....And what about the record executive who felt the cut apple B side logo was a vagina!!!

 

You can always find what you're looking for.....In some case projecting.......

In Trump I see a man who's deeply patriotic......Wants the US to win and won't put up with China's theft and NATO's unfair abuse of the US tax payer.........  And is brave enough not to kow tow to the PC thought police.

   

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8 August 2019
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@Wigwam it’s not especially relevant whether Trump’s exact wording was “get back to Africa.” I feel as if you’re avoiding the issue here. IIRC his wording was ‘go back to where you came from’ implying that these four congresswomen, because they are not white, couldn’t possibly be ‘real’ Americans. That’s racism.

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8 August 2019
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I could sit here and argue against the fake news all day, but I just don't care enough. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

I said and I'll say it again
Is Trump a racist? Don't know, don't care. There are sooooo many bigger problems to worry about in the world [...]

...like how dirty Mean Mr Mustard is, and the track listing of the Abbey Road 50th anniversary release, and whether Paul was hotter in '67 or '76. paul-mccartney-facepalm_gif

[...]this endless back-and-forth [is] utterly trivial, pointless, and neither side is willing to change their minds so why don't we all just agree to disagree and, for the Americans among us, when ballot box day comes, we can exersize our rights in the only way that really matters. 

I use American spelling when I discuss American politics ahdn_george_06

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8 August 2019
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I enjoy the to and fro of conflicting opinion.......But I have to remember it's not for everyone.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that Beatle fans are mostly very nice people. 

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8 August 2019
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@Wigwam You carefully checked my words to see if my allegation is candid, and I appreciate that. However, you haven’t used the same strict criteria against Trump’s speech. If my choice of words (which I still believe didn’t go too far from what Trump said) is considered inappropriate, then I don’t see how Trump’s hateful words can be tolerated. If left media’s sheer criticism against him comes from prejudice, then how do we regard Trump’s deliberate insulting behavior towards minority, other than proof that he possesses much more prejudice?

You still hold on to the idea that speech doesn’t count as proof for racism, but in fact, like actions do, speech reflects one’s idea. Let alone Trump is the president of US, a politician. He should be much more cautious about his public speech is part of representation of the country, and affects the balance of different political forces. Either he is too ignorant to realize his due responsibility, or he chooses to dog whistle for white supremacy. In either way, he is far from conscientious.

“Patriotic”? Not his get-out-of-the-jail-free card. Let’s not forget what Samuel Johnson said, “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel”.True patriotism is supporting the dignity of every individual citizen and principles of the country. You mean Trump, who spreads hateful language towards his fellow US citizens, is patriotic? No, he’s just a nationalist.

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9 August 2019
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Here we go again........Trump didn't say 'get back to Africa' period.

He said: “Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came.”

He was wrong factually........An argument could be made that it was also wrong morally......It wasn't racist.

I'll put it to you again if speech alone is enough to judge someone a racist  Paul McCartney is a racist...."We don't want no Pakistanis here taking all our jobs....Get back'  If he isn't a racist in your eyes explain why you think he isn't....and why you think Trump's, 'Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came.”....counts as racist.

Since Russia Russia Russia fizzled....(embarrassingly so) the Democrats have nothing, no-one and no policies to beat Trump....All they can do is paint him as undesirable. They are in for a surprise......The voting booths are private.

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9 August 2019
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That makes no sense for (at least) 2 reasons. First of all, you’re ignoring the fact that Trump was assuming they came from someplace besides the US because they weren’t white, signifying racist ideology. Second of all, the president of the United States is not in the business of comedy and his remark was not ironic, unlike Paul’s lyric which was not serious. Your logic is very weak.

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I hate to say it but I do think that this has descended into arguing for no real reason. Obviously there are members on here, myself included, who feel strongly about the matter, but it's at a point now where no one will change anyone else's mind.
I'm worried that before long, it'll get uncivilised.

Would anyone mind if we move on from this argument that seems to be going around and around in circles?

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