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Philosophy
17 May 2019
2.12pm
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Dark Overlord
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@Ron Nasty

Are you seriously suggesting that i support martial rape and slavery?

Rape is wrong no matter what and no one should have to go through it, especially if its from someone you have to live with like your husband. Its really sad that this used to be considered acceptable but fortunately very few people still habe that mindset.

As for slavery, im against that as well. No one should be forced against their will to do work for some rich guy just because of the color of your skin. Thats very authoritarian and oppressive and it really sucks that this country was founded on racism.

I really hate how youre trying to take my quote out of context. The quote was trying to point out how reverse discrimination is wrong, i would never tolerate such rubbish and im glad there are laws against it in at least some places.

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17 May 2019
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QuarryMan
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I don't think RN was suggesting that you supported those things, but that your quote, saying that it wasn't the fault of white men that women and minorities have been historically oppressed, doesn't really hold up in any context 

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17 May 2019
3.36pm
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Ron Nasty
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Of course I don't think that of you, @Dark Overlord, I was merely pointing out that maybe that opinion wasn't fully thought through.

You make the point that you were talking about reverse discrimination but that is what fighting discrimination against one group inevitably leads to.

Men for many years, centuries, have held the power and codified the law. As women have gained a bigger political voice, they have started to object to how those laws treat and affect them, feeling discriminated against.

In the case of MR, married women felt they were being discriminated against because it wasn't recognised as a crime but was instead a man's conjugal rights that the woman had agreed to in the marriage contract. When the idea that was put forward by brave campaigning women that the marriage contract did not offer a blanket agreement to sex on demand, and that a married woman could say no, there were many men who objected and still do - as shown by the amount of States in the US that refuse to treat rape equally, not discriminating between someone who is married to the offender, met them in a bar that night and agreed to a lift home, or were dragged down an alley by a complete stranger.

There are, unfortunately, men who believed, and still believe, that making MR a criminal offence discriminated against their view of their conjugal rights. Reverse discrimination at its most basic, supporting the victim rather than the perpetrator, switching from ignoring MR to making it a crime, where men who believe (and there are too many) raping the wife is their right start finding themselves in a cell with Big Frank.

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17 May 2019
6.20pm
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Dark Overlord
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I think we can combat discrimination without it eventually leading to reverse discrimination. After all, it isnt equality if women and minorities are getting preferential treatment.

Reverse discrimination comes from hate which is often accumulated from past events where the said perosn was discriminated against. If we can end such inequality, then reverse discrimination would be practically gone.

However, by allowing reverse discrimination to happen, we pull white men towards groups like the Alt Right and the Proud Boys , creating an endless cycle of hate that hurts everybody and helps no one.

Also, wives can rape their husbands too (not as common but it still happens) so its not fair to treat this as a womens only issue.

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2 August 2019
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Dark Overlord
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What are your thoughts on the Equality Act. I like it but i have 2 problems with it. First, it excludes asexuals due to it's definition of sexual orientation being heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual but also, there's no exception for religious places like churches and mosques which i feel is a denial of free speech.

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2 August 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed
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I guess it's a start.
It's not perfect but if no bill that was perfect passed then we'd get nothing.
We've got to hope that in future there will be a follow up bill to include asexuals.

re. religious freedoms... I support the right, however in a situation such as this, the freedom to discriminate that religious freedoms allows causes suicides - it's been proven over and over again. So in this case, I can't support it because it puts lives in danger, and, at least in my view, a life is more important than someone's beliefs.

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2 August 2019
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Dark Overlord said
What are your thoughts on the Equality Act. I like it but i have 2 problems with it. First, it excludes asexuals due to it's definition of sexual orientation being heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual but also, there's no exception for religious places like churches and mosques which i feel is a denial of free speech.

  

Those are not the only three sexualities a-hard-days-night-john-7

I haven’t heard of this act (i’m an uncultured cheese, I know) would someone mind explaining it?

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2 August 2019
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Dark Overlord
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@The Hole Got Fixed I don't know how a priest refusing to perform a gay wedding or a Christian baker refusing to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple would make anyone kill themselves. I guess it could but it seems unlikely.

@50yearslate I like to think of it as 4 sexualities (hetero, bi, homo, ace) since all others can either fit within one of these 4 or are unrelated to gender and therefore aren't a sexuality.

Also,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ed_States)

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2 August 2019
8.22pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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It reaffirms the idea that non-heterosexuals are somehow inferior if they are refused service etc., which leads to mental health problems over time, which causes suicide.
It's a long and winding road, that's for sure...

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2 August 2019
8.28pm
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Ron Nasty
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The 1974 Equality Act replaced the 1964 Civil Rights Act, @50yearslate, which by bringing in protections for different sexualities against discrimination, bringing them into those groups protected on the grounds of race, religion or sexual orientation.

It is an evolving piece of legislation that was last updated in 2010, which is why I have little fear that as a societies attitudes change, the law is updated on a five/ten year lag. The biggest threat to all being created equally and treated equally under the law is the Christian Right that Trump depends on so much.

Which is why I have no time for religious groups being exempt from equality laws, and being allowed to discriminate and preach hate, @Dark Overlord, because it is in those places exempt from law that dark roots grow and the light darkens. You cannot have laws that say you cannot speak hatred and demean groups in society because of race, etc, and then say except by religious leaders. It doesn't work. It destroys societies.

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2 August 2019
8.44pm
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Dark Overlord
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Both of you have good points but one of my concerns is this causing people just to close down shop.

A perfect example of this is when public pools were finally required to allow blacks to swim, racist pool owners responded by closing down the pool. I'm concerned that if these laws are passed without exception, Christians, Jews, and Muslims will do the same. Instead of allowing gays in their building, they'll just close or they'll stop doing wedding ceremonies entirely, which will piss off a lot of people.

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2 August 2019
8.46pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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That being said, DO, it will stop the racism and homophobia from being really obvious, which is a start. If it stops being obvious, it gradually stops altogether

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2 August 2019
9.37pm
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Ron Nasty
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Some religious/political views are best driven underground. Brunei recently tried to bring in stoning to death for gay sex, which they cited Islamic religious texts for. Saudi Arabia didn't allow women to go out, drive, or travel without permission of a male relative. Your religious views should never supersede someone else's civil rights.

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2 August 2019
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Beatlebug
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1) I don't think asexuals really experience any kind of discrimination for our lack of sexuality (it's effectively the same as being celibate if you don't date, and if you do choose to date someone, then, legally, it's effectively covered under any of the other sexualities), so we don't really need to be included under that act.

2) I agree with DO about thinking of only 4 main sexualities. I have no problem with people using microlabels if they want to, but the main 4 pretty much covers it -- anything else is just extra nuance which doesn't really make a quantitative legal difference.

3) I understand that it's a complex issue, but I don't think it's fair to equate stoning with refusing a service. One causes actual physical harm, even death, while the other is perhaps emotionally hurtful, but will in no way infringe on your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (the latter being what you make it. No one else is obligated to help make you happy, especially at the expense of their own pursuit of happiness).

I know that may come across as mean, but I really don't care. I stand on principle, not feelings. God I must sound like such a conservatard right now, but dammit, I'm tired and my sympathy/tact levels are even lower than usual. ahdn_george_05

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2 August 2019
10.36pm
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Ron Nasty
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I was illustrating the extremes of where the religious/political voice can take a society, @Beatlebug, when exempted from discrimination law. Appalled as I was by Brunei attempting to bring in stoning, they backed down in the face of international protest, I'm as equally appalled by the male servitude women in many Arab countries, especially Saudi Arabia, have been forced to live because of beliefs.

Reasonably sure you would feel oppressed if you lived in a society where your every action was dictated by, and needed the permission of, the male head of the family. And this is nothing to do with Islamic cultures really, because it's easy to find Christian cultures as oppressive but we don't consider them the other. Many of the most oppressive laws against same-sex relationships, including the death penalty, are found in African countries with strong Christian beliefs that are often stoked up by financial support from evangelical Right Wing American groups.

My mother always used to say on theft when I was caught taking a few pence from her purse, as kids are wont to do, you take 1p or a million pounds, you're still a thief. You discriminate against people's sexuality and call for them to be stoned, or you believe your 50-year-old daughter can't leave the house without her 10-year-old brother's permission, you're oppressing people's rights.

It should never be about the scale of the bigoted response, but always about having your choices about you and your life taken away by others.

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2 August 2019
10.55pm
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ScarlettFieldsForever
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Beatlebug said
1) I don't think asexuals really experience any kind of discrimination for our lack of sexuality (it's effectively the same as being celibate if you don't date, and if you do choose to date someone, then, legally, it's effectively covered under any of the other sexualities), so we don't really need to be included under that act.

Legally speaking, if the law is to declare equality for all sexualities, then all of them should be included. And I don’t think celibate and asexual are the same things. According to dictionary, celibate means not married or having sex “for religious reasons”, while asexual is just natural lack of interest in sex. That’s why I believe asexual should be respectively listed.

3) I understand that it's a complex issue, but I don't think it's fair to equate stoning with refusing a service. One causes actual physical harm, even death, while the other is perhaps emotionally hurtful, but will in no way infringe on your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (the latter being what you make it. No one else is obligated to help make you happy, especially at the expense of their own pursuit of happiness.

This sounds like discrimination only exists if it’s fatal. Does that sound like what happened in southern US, “Equal but segregated”? Next, this is not an issue of feelings, as you say, this is principle problem. The principle of “all men are born equal” is violated, for those who refuse to serve non-heterosexual or people are judging them by their natural traits, not their personal behavior. Sure there’s religious freedom, but is the freedom to express hatred included in that as well?
  

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3 August 2019
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You would do well to specify which country you're talking about in your original post, @Dark Overlord . The USA is not the only country, and certainly not the only one to have an 'equality act'. 

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3 August 2019
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Beatlebug said
1) I don't think asexuals really experience any kind of discrimination for our lack of sexuality (it's effectively the same as being celibate if you don't date, and if you do choose to date someone, then, legally, it's effectively covered under any of the other sexualities), so we don't really need to be included under that act.

You could say the same about heterosexuals but they're included in the act so i think it's fair to include asexuals as well, just to be safe.

God I must sound like such a conservatard right now, but dammit, I'm tired and my sympathy/tact levels are even lower than usual. ahdn_george_05

Actually, you're one of the most sensible right wingers i've ever met and your points are well said and feel unbiased.

Ron Nasty said
It should never be about the scale of the bigoted response, but always about having your choices about you and your life taken away by others.  

But that also means having the choice of being a Christian and living by the Bible taken away by others.

ScarlettFieldsForever said
The principle of “all men are born equal” is violated, for those who refuse to serve non-heterosexual or people are judging them by their natural traits, not their personal behavior.

I don't think all men are born equal but rather that everyone's different in their own special way. Also, while you can't help who you love, you can help who you have sexual relations with and when most Christians define sexuality, they go by the latter meaning that in this case, sexuality is a choice.

Sure there’s religious freedom, but is the freedom to express hatred included in that as well?

To an extent, yes.

Take the Westboro Baptist Church as an example. These are Christians who go to places holding up signs like these:

However, while these people are awful people who make Christianity look bad, what they do is within the confides of free speech.

@QuarryMan i was referring to the US since it's likely this act will be enacted soon.

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3 August 2019
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Ron Nasty
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For me, @Dark Overlord, at the extremes of any system of belief, whether it be religious/spiritual or political, people will always find something to support their own prejudices, based on ideologies (often) from hundreds of years ago - and often ignoring that it wasn't the message of the founder of those beliefs.

After all, if we take Christianity as an example, given I have spent my life in a so-called Christian society, and though now have rejected the religious texts as nothing more than interesting historical and philosophical documents.

What were the teachings of Jesus Christ, which should be the most important words in the book?

To turn the other cheek, to love your neighbour as yourself, to love your enemies, to not condemn and do harm unless you are completely free of wrongdoing.

Too many Christians do not follow the teachings of Christ, but instead find excuses for their prejudices in those early founders of the Church whose distortions of his teachings fill much of the New Testament, or reach back into the Old Testament - a set of beliefs which Christ stated he had come to overturn.

There's too many who preach distortions - inciting hatred, division and prejudice; all twisting and distorting the thoughts, observations and beliefs of some of histories great philosophers to enrich themselves, both politically and financially.

"It's the Word of God !" for me, I'm sorry, is not enough of an excuse as the Word of God is too often a pick and mix even among those who follow the same God .

The law should apply equally to all, otherwise it is not a law.

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3 August 2019
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This is something I think conservatives fail to recognise: there is a difference between personal attributes you can choose and personal attributes you can't. You CAN choose to be religious or atheist, you can choose to be right or left wing, you can choose the hobbies/causes/interests you identify yourself with. You CAN'T choose your sexuality, your sex, your skin colour etc. 

Now, I believe that both of these things afford rights themselves, but fundamentally I think it's unfair to conflate the two, because there is a huge difference between gay folks who have been persecuted for hundreds of years and certain bakers who think they're being persecuted by being asked to bake a cake. That's a big can of worms to open, I know, but the point stands the same. 

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