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Philosophy
11 April 2019
3.42am
Wigwam
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Some light relief for the Hole got fixed.

https://youtu.be/6XRDmVSGx6o
11 April 2019
5.07am
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QuarryMan
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Ah, here's Jordan Peterson crying about Bill C-16, and saying that trans women aren't women because they don't have XX chromosomes, can't give birth and have female genitalia. Fun fact: that C-86 bill, which right wingers fear mongered about and portrayed as some kind of Orwellian nightmare has sent a grand total of 0 people to jail (compared to the thousands of unsuspecting innocents simply using the wrong pronouns that were predicted). 

So does he think that women going through menopause, or women who are unable to have children for medical reasons, are no longer women? How does he explain people whose genitalia doesn't match their chromosome? It seems to me that the conclusion of what he is saying would be to acknowledge that the gender binary is not a good model for looking at these things, because clearly there are a lot of exceptions in the pattern. He's made his definition of what it means to be a woman too wide, I think, and in doing so has left it open for holes and inconsistencies. 

A good analogy for it, and I might have posted this before, is comparing trans people (in this instance I'm going to talk about trans women for simplicity) to adoptive parents. Adoptive parents, of course, aren't the biological parents of their child. Does that stop them from being considered the parents? No. An adoptive parent, in every single context of life other than a doctor's office, is their child's parent (because a doctor needs to know to do with stuff such as hereditary conditions and whatnot). Just the same as how a trans woman is a woman in every single context of life other than a doctor's office (in which the doctor has to treat them according to their biology). But you wouldn't say to an adoptive parent "you're lying! you clearly have a mental illness if you think that you are that child's parent". That would be considered extremely disrespectful. 

Typically, when you have those types of journalists who have a clear lack of objectivity, they completely misunderstand the points people like JP are making. Like here, how they interpreted his opposition to C-16 as against trans people when in fact it was due to mandated speech. They're kind of different issues, but the journalists were trying to make it sound like one was the cause of the other. Ugh, it annoys me that so many people on the left act like this. Calling out right wingers for their nonsense should be like shooting fish in a barrel but instead it turns out like this.

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"You shouldn't let poets lie to you"

- Björk

11 April 2019
6.45am
Wigwam
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I didn't notice him crying. Just calmly stating facts. There was no crying or whining or any other synonym for those words. He was measured, calm and thoughtful.... as always.  

Of course as you point out in your, 'what about?' section there are exceptions to straightforward male/female describers.... Hermaphrodites.....Women with XX chromosomes but who have undergone hysterectomies,.......Men who have had their balls removed and their penis turned inside out to form a rudimentary but not biologically accurate vagina, added breast implants and a bikini wax. They can make their bodies fit as best as they can with their feminine self-image and should be treated with respect.....But so should Peterson's resistance to accepting mandated speech however minimal the penalties would be. Respect shouldn't be a one-way street.  That's the kernel of his (I think), valid point. He stated clearly that his whole battle is with mandated speech not with trans people, and more power to him. He also stated he has personally used pronouns that trans people have requested. of him.  

The adopted trans example is a good one. I would certainly acknowledge the adoptive mother and father should be called 'mother and father' in normal practice but it's also possible that a biological mother and father also exist and their biological connection should also be recognised even if the adoptive parents have legal custody.

I'm in complete agreement with your last statements which are very perceptive. 

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11 April 2019
6.50am
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Dark Overlord
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Wigwam, that whole thing about the finger length is a stereotype and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Also, a lot of people get that bill wrong. The goal is to prosecute those who INTENTIONALLY misgender someone, not to prosecute those who accidentally misgender someone and in that regards, i agree with the bill (although i agree it's a bit harsh) since free speech shouldn't mean you have the right to verbally insult someone.

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If you're reading this, you are looking for something to do.

11 April 2019
7.43am
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QuarryMan
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Yeah fair enough he wasn't crying or anything like that, it was hyperbole on my part for him being so concerned over this. For me I agree with DO that the intentions of C-16 are good, but admittedly I do see the concern as there isn't really much precedent for government mandating speech. 

What I'm wondering is whether misgendering someone could be considered libel or slander, and therefore could be grounds for prosecution in most countries without the need for a law like C-16. Alternatively, deliberately misgendering someone could also be considered hate speech in a way, so maybe that's a route this might end up going down. 

"You shouldn't let poets lie to you"

- Björk

11 April 2019
9.21am
Wigwam
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I think stereotype is the wrong word DO.......'Indicator' might be closer, but it is based on some science, though as you suggest that doesn't mean it's necessarily accurate......I've always thought of it as a bit of fun. I've looked at a lot more women's hands than mens. Most women had the index and third the exact same size. The exceptions have been sporty.....

I recall at the time of the lecture I brought this up in the bar.....I looked at my squash team mate's hands on club night .....only about 8 men sitting round.....Almost all had masculine hands...The one exception was the team's best player. Both ring and third finger were exactly the same length.......Interestingly and perhaps coincidentally he's gay and works with people as a male nurse. 

As I say just a bit of fun....and nothing to get hung about.

Here's some of the science.....If psychology counts as that!!

https://www.psychologytoday.co.....ic-prowess

11 April 2019
6.50pm
Wigwam
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https://youtu.be/OwboupG_Qws

What do you think?

12 April 2019
4.52am
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QuarryMan
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I'm not sure of the difference between in-state tuition and out of state tuition, which they seem to be differentiating between here, so Idk. 

"You shouldn't let poets lie to you"

- Björk

12 April 2019
5.21am
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Timothy
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General thought here: I’m a big believer in being yourself. Anything else is not just lying to the world, but to yourself. Our own personalities are stronger because they’re natural and authentic. It’s almost like a superpower in the confidence it gives. No one else in the world can be you, so embrace that. Even if it means being a nerdy introvert. Don’t be seeking to change yourself to please others. If people truly like you, they’ll like the real you, and you’ll attract the right friends.

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12 April 2019
4.08pm
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Beatlebug
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Timothy spaketh
General thought here: I’m a big believer in being yourself. Anything else is not just lying to the world, but to yourself. Our own personalities are stronger because they’re natural and authentic. It’s almost like a superpower in the confidence it gives. No one else in the world can be you, so embrace that. Even if it means being a nerdy introvert. Don’t be seeking to change yourself to please others. If people truly like you, they’ll like the real you, and you’ll attract the right friends.  

This is basically my entire life philosophy. I think I'm actually incapable of doing otherwise. a-hard-days-night-john-6

(my Aries is showing again ahdn_george_06)

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It verges from the sublime to the ridiculote

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12 April 2019
5.59pm
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QuarryMan
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Pursuit of individual happiness is where it's at. 

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"You shouldn't let poets lie to you"

- Björk

14 April 2019
7.32am
Wigwam
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Some of you might like this.....

https://youtu.be/yhwO8u4sZ-8

I really enjoyed watching this...........Have to say in nearly all cases of difference I was pleased I'm a boy.....And for where being a girl has 'advantages'.....there's none that I'm in envy of. 

Even you 'guys' that yawned at the words, 'men and women are different'...It's likely you WILL learn something...........

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