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Philosophy
10 April 2019
1.10pm
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Beatlebug
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Wow, this blew up whilst I was away. (How dare you have a debate without me? a-hard-days-night-george-10)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what @Dark Overlord meant in the original post that began this discussion is: People are free to engage in sexual behaviours however they wish. I don't think he ever meant to imply that sexual preferences/orientation are a choice, because they obviously aren't, but sexual behaviour is a choice.

However, while that's technically true, the vast majority of people make such choices very much based on how they feel, i.e. their sexual orientation and preferences -- as someone said, why would you choose to have sex with someone you weren't attracted to? Most people wouldn't. You could still do it, but it wouldn't be enjoyable. (I speak as an asexual person who could, theoretically, get it on with someone tomorrow, but I would probably never choose to do that because ewww.)

QuarryMan said
How is your voice linked to your sexuality? I'm bisexual and I don't do any particular accent or sound camp at all.  

Please see bolded text.

Dark Overlord said
The problem is that it's likely that the Nazis persecuted those with stereotypical gay attributes, but since these are stereotypes, they don't always add up and you'd get straight people getting captured for displaying these features and gay people avoiding capture for not displaying these features.
  

Dark Overlord said
The way you sound is similar to your sexuality in that regards. If you really wanted to, you could fake your way through the proper accent but it typically doesn't feel right. As for your second point, that's true but but your voice and appearance can mean the difference between being caught and not being caught in certain homophobic areas, regardless of your sexuality.  

DO never said one's voice was 'linked' to one's sexuality, just that certain stereotypes were/are perpetuated. More 'associated' than 'linked', I'd say -- whether fairly or not. He also stated that one tends to use certain speech patterns naturally, without necessarily 'going for' a particular sound, and made the connection between that and sexual preferences in that they're involuntary. It appeared to me to be kind of a passing observation. Speech patterns are easier to change consciously, of course, but you have to consciously change them -- as any non-Liverpudlian Beatles fan who has faked a Scouse accent knows. a-hard-days-night-paul-8

I hope this post makes things clearer, if they weren't already. apple01

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10 April 2019
1.55pm
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Dark Overlord
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Thank you @Beatlebug you got it perfectly right.

As for you @Wigwam i think it's a bit of both. There are definitely biological differences between men and women that would undeniably make them shift towards different paths but i think the lack of encouragement for women (as well as men) to seek out typically male (or female) dominated fields also plays a part in it.

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10 April 2019
2.40pm
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QuarryMan
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That did answer a few of my queries, but I think this 

Dark Overlord said

The way you sound is similar to your sexuality in that regards. If you really wanted to, you could fake your way through the proper accent but it typically doesn't feel right. 

implies that voice is linked to sexuality, implying that someone not doing a stereotypically gay accent is faking it. 

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, girls. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

 

10 April 2019
2.54pm
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Dark Overlord
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I was trying to say that some men have a naturally high pitched voice, i wasn't talking about sexuality.

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10 April 2019
4.03pm
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QuarryMan
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Ah I'm with you now a-hard-days-night-john-6

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10 April 2019
6.31pm
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Here's another topic I think is interesting to discuss: do you think sex work is empowering, or exploitative? 

Obviously the context of each case (e.g whether it was entirely consensual, whether the worker is safe from STIs etc) is pretty important to this, so discussion of that is of course welcome, but I would also be interested to hear people's thoughts on the nature of sex work itself (no I don't mean physically), divorced from that context. 

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10 April 2019
6.43pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Just going back to the thing about ring/index fingers...

My left hand:

IMG_2786.JPGImage Enlarger

So... does that make me gender non-conforming, then?

It's a good 11mm difference (yes I measured it)

 

As for the new question: As long as it's entirely consensual, I don't see any issue with it. The grey area is when someone 'consents' out of fear... 

But on the whole (and of course I'm entirely speculating here as I don't have any first hand experienceahdn_john_08_gif) I would imagine it to be empowering.

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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10 April 2019
6.51pm
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Beatlebug
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^Isn't it about the ring finger being longer than the index finger though?

Both my ring fingers are considerably longer than my index fingers so I guess I am too. a-hard-days-night-paul-4

As for sex work, I don't feel I can really speak on the issue since the whole topic is so alien and utterly gross to me, so I'll just take the libertarian stance and say, whatever floats your boat as long as it's consensual... mccartney-shrug_01_gif

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10 April 2019
6.57pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Beatlebug said
^Isn't it about the ring finger being longer than the index finger though?

...Yes that's what Wigwam said, however my index fingers are both longer (left one is 11mm, right one is 13mm) than the respective ring finger, which is why I'm saying that classification doesn't make sense.

Both my ring fingers are considerably longer than my index fingers so I guess I am too. a-hard-days-night-paul-4  

Opposite of me

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10 April 2019
7.02pm
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Beatlebug
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I guess your hands are just weird a-hard-days-night-john-6

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10 April 2019
7.18pm
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Dark Overlord
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As long they're consenting adults, i'm cool with it.

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10 April 2019
10.41pm
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Beatlebug said
I guess your hands are just weird a-hard-days-night-john-6

  

my index fingers are longer than my ring fingers too... a-hard-days-night-paul-4

What could it possibly mean? a-hard-days-night-george-10

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11 April 2019
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Ron Nasty
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Jumping back to @Wigwam's observation that there are jobs that are more suited to men than women, and vice versa, and how that explains some of the inequalities in the workplace, so obviously true. I mean look at the kitchen as a profession, cooking is so obviously women's work, and so culinary history is filled with famous female chefs.

Oh no, wait just a moment, another profession that is dominated by men... Once something became a prestige position in society, the men moved in and took over. Men were the chefs while women, in the main, remained cooks.

I can name male chefs going back to the French Revolution , I can't do the same with women. In fact, it is only in the last ten, fifteen years that I have become aware of women who are called chefs rather than cooks.

Less than twenty women have been awarded the highest accolade in chefing, three Michelin Stars, since 1926, while hundreds of men have, with the majority of those few women having gained their awards in the last twenty years.

So, even in those professions you might think would be female dominated because of the type of work, once they became professions with acclaim and prestige, the men came in and took over.

(Apologies to our female friends as I know there's some clumsy phrasing in the above. I just thought an interesting perspective on something too many men think is women's work in the home but that doesn't translate to the professional kitchen, and a good example of how patriarchal systems have blocked out equally qualified, often better qualified, women from achieving the highest positions and accolades in their chosen professions.)

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11 April 2019
12.26am
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Wow, we're talking about fingers now? *searching former posts*

Oh, I see what this is about. My index finger is clearly longer than my ring finger, yet I'm a straight woman. Then I must be a rare type...

Clearly there are many biological differences between sexes, but I doubt if they are all relevant to gender equality as a social concept. Sometimes they're even overplayed and contribute to gender stereotype (not this tiny issue about fingers, but others).

Back to topic: sex work. I don't think prohibition, however strict, can simply block it out of earth because it's kinda driven by human nature. Like Holey, I have no problem with it as long as it's consensual, but situations are too subtle to be defined. Only in a well-developed social system can the legalization of sex work be feasible. As for the country I'm living in, perhaps not in my lifetime.

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11 April 2019
2.02am
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Ron Nasty said
Jumping back to @Wigwam's observation that there are jobs that are more suited to men than women, and vice versa, and how that explains some of the inequalities in the workplace, so obviously true. I mean look at the kitchen as a profession, cooking is so obviously women's work, and so culinary history is filled with famous female chefs.

Oh no, wait just a moment, another profession that is dominated by men... Once something became a prestige position in society, the men moved in and took over. Men were the chefs while women, in the main, remained cooks.

I can name male chefs going back to the French Revolution , I can't do the same with women. In fact, it is only in the last ten, fifteen years that I have become aware of women who are called chefs rather than cooks.

Less than twenty women have been awarded the highest accolade in chefing, three Michelin Stars, since 1926, while hundreds of men have, with the majority of those few women having gained their awards in the last twenty years.

So, even in those professions you might think would be female dominated because of the type of work, once they became professions with acclaim and prestige, the men came in and took over.

(Apologies to our female friends as I know there's some clumsy phrasing in the above. I just thought an interesting perspective on something too many men think is women's work in the home but that doesn't translate to the professional kitchen, and a good example of how patriarchal systems have blocked out equally qualified, often better qualified, women from achieving the highest positions and accolades in their chosen professions.)

  

A  facile explanation.....Could it just  possibly be that, as everyone knows men make the best cooks?!!!

Ronald Mac'Donald........Colonel Sanders......I could go on. 

11 April 2019
2.04am
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50yearslate said

  

my index fingers are longer than my ring fingers too... a-hard-days-night-paul-4

What could it possibly mean? a-hard-days-night-george-10

  

A lack of testosterone during your development in the womb?

11 April 2019
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So you're saying that I, as a cis-male, I also had a lack of testosterone in the womb? Would that not make me... female?

 

Wigwam said
A  facile explanation.....Could it just  possibly be that, as everyone knows men make the best cooks?!!!

Ronald Mac'Donald........Colonel Sanders......I could go on. 

  

Contradiction in terms... we're talking about best cooks aren't we?a-hard-days-night-george-10

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11 April 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said
So you're saying that I, as a cis-male, I also had a lack of testosterone in the womb? Would that not make me... female?

 

Wigwam said

A  facile explanation.....Could it just  possibly be that, as everyone knows men make the best cooks?!!!

Ronald Mac'Donald........Colonel Sanders......I could go on. 

  

Contradiction in terms... we're talking about best cooks aren't we?a-hard-days-night-george-10

  

Whoosh!

11 April 2019
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Warning some bad language and harsh facts.........

11 April 2019
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Some more unpalatable truth......

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