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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
5 April 2019
5.49am
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QuarryMan
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I understand but I can’t support battling unfairness in the system with systemised unfairness. …..because it’s unfair.

Even though I disagree, this is a very reasonable and justified conclusion to make, and to some degree I share that viewpoint. I guess, in regards to our discussion about Peterson, we both differ from him in that we can agree that inequality is down to far more than just biology, power influence and celebrity as you put it, amongst other things. Where we differ is in the steps that should be taken to reverse said inequality. 

And thank you! heartI’m going to be studying politics at university next year, but I don’t think I will actually become a politician… at least until Brexit is over and done with a-hard-days-night-john-6

I've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound. 

5 April 2019
6.15am
Wigwam
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One of my A levels back in 1968 was ‘British Constitution’….It wasn’t taken-up out of any interest in politics but mainly because it could be squeezed it into a year AND girls from the sister school joined the course.

A great motivator in a boys only school…….Mind you there wasn’t a #Me Too movement then……Although it was the age of free love our primitive advances were still called for good reason a bit of ‘slap and tickle’.

Different times.

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5 April 2019
7.54am
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QuarryMan
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I find it so odd how common single sex schools used to be. I’m glad there aren’t many around anymore, I think I would have found school unimaginably dull with only other boys. I think the boys at my school would still be the exact same in that situation, though a-hard-days-night-john-6

I've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound. 

5 April 2019
4.47pm
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Dark Overlord
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I think a better way to fix inequality is to have it so everyone’s application says nothing about their:

Biological sex/gender identity

Biological ethnicity/racial identity

Sexual interests (as long as it’s between consenting adults)

Disabilities (if any)

Religious/political beliefs (if any)

Weight/height

Class

Now employers have no choice but to hire solely based on their credentials. It would mean that we can no longer have interviews but it’s far better than affirmative action since now everybody has equal opportunity and an employer who might reject people based on one of these things can’t because now he won’t know until after he hires them and if she fires them based on these things, they’ll get in big trouble.

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5 April 2019
5.12pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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I agree but interviews are necessary. 

Also..

“because now he won’t know until after he hires them and if she fires them based on these things, they’ll get in big trouble.”

The pronouns in this section confused me a lot!

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5 April 2019
5.16pm
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Dark Overlord
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I intentionally distorted the pronouns to be as non-sexist as possible.

Although looking back, i wish i said “because now he won’t know until after she hires them and if he fires them based on these things, she’ll get in big trouble.” since that’s a better alteration.

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5 April 2019
5.24pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Just use ‘they’. ‘They’ also includes gender non-conforming people, and prevents me from getting totally and utterly confused by changes in gender to the subject half way through a sentence!

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5 April 2019
5.37pm
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QuarryMan
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That sounds reasonable, but also pretty tricky to implement. It’s interesting to consider though, and seems like it could be a way forward. 

I've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound. 

5 April 2019
5.58pm
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Dark Overlord
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I guess i could just use they but wouldn’t it make more sense to use it since it’s singular and they is plural.

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5 April 2019
6.01pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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They can be singular or plural

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6 April 2019
6.19am
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QuarryMan
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Continuing on from the above discussion, I’m Just Curious™ – how do people feel about pronoun usage with trans people? Personally I see no good reason why we shouldn’t refer to someone by their preferred pronouns, but I’d find it interesting to see views on the opposing side, provided we keep it civil and respectful.

I've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound. 

6 April 2019
6.30am
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Can’t offer you opposing views – I think you should use what the person wants you to use!

Also, when online like here, I’m a strong advocate for ‘they’ if you don’t know the preferred pronouns!

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6 April 2019
7.09am
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Dark Overlord
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I agree with both of you in that i will always use people’s preferred pronouns. However, i will guess if i’m unaware of their pronouns and they look male/female.

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6 April 2019
8.14am
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QuarryMan
Rishikesh
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Definitely. I was considering this question after watching conservative pundit Ben Shapiro talk about how he will call Caitlyn Jenner “Caitlin Jenner” but he won’t refer to her as “she” because he thinks its a lie to refer to someone with pronouns that don’t match their chromosomes.

This assumes that one’s pronouns are determined by their chromosomes, but I think this is a poor understanding of this issue and language in general. 

1) Firstly, chromosomes were only discovered in 1905, while the origins of gender specific pronouns can be traced back to around 500BC. So they’re not inherently tied together. 

2) Secondly, Ben’s argument rests on the idea that a word’s meaning is set in stone and unchangeable, what we might call a prescriptive view of language. However, most linguists recognise that the approach should actually be descriptive, as meanings of words change over time and through their use. For example, the word “straight’ has gained the additional meaning of heterosexuality through usage in that context. Therefore, if trans women live their lives as women and are referred to as “she” or “her” throughout their everyday experience, then they’re not lying. 

Another interesting way of looking at it is by comparing it to adoptive parents. They’re not parents biologically, but in every context except medical (where a doctor has to know if they are the parents biologically to properly diagnose hereditary conditions) they act as the parents, and I’m sure most everyone would have no problems referring to them as their child’s parents. The same goes for trans people as while they may be required to be treated according to chromosome medically, in every other context they can live their life as their chosen gender. 

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I've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound. 

6 April 2019
8.31am
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Dark Overlord
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While i will refer to someone with their preferred pronouns, we must remember that they’re still biologically a man (or woman). So while i would refer to someone like ContraPoints as a woman and use female pronouns, i know her as a man. Same thing with transracials, i’ll refer to someone like Rachel Dolezal as black but i know her as white.

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6 April 2019
8.40am
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Getbackintheussr
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Transracials actually exist? I really don’t know how to feel about that. a-hard-days-night-paul-10It’s pretty weird.

I think everyone should refer to people by their preferred pronouns regardless of how they feel about it. It’s just the right thing to do, and it doesn’t hurt anyone. 

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6 April 2019
8.45am
Wigwam
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Thailand has a large trans population. Without being asked to when I’m in conversation with a jadyboy I will use feminine terms….. this comes naturally and without thought and is I think appreciated.

But if you ask me logically to categorize whether a ladyboy is male or female there’s no doubt in my mind she is a he.

ladyboys can be stunning and affect feminine graces,,,, but they never…….er… pull it off. Not quite.

Treat people with respect….Be accepting of each other…. But that goes for me as well. Rude demands get nowhere when applied to me. 

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6 April 2019
9.38pm
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Beatlebug
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The ‘transracial’ thing is nonsense and is not at all equivalent to transgender people, who are just doing their best to live with a debilitating mental illness?/condition?/whatever you want to call it.

I believe in respecting the preferred pronouns of trans people if they don’t prove themselves not to deserve it (ugh – double negatives! What I mean is, a person is automatically worthy of respect unless they prove otherwise). My brain is automatically going to categorise you by your secondary sex characteristics/appearance anyway, and I’ll just go with whatever seems natural. I’ll make an effort to use a certain pronoun if someone explicitly requests, unless they’re a jerk about it/it’s some neopronoun no one’s ever heard of. (Sorry. Just can’t do it. I’ll call you ‘they’ instead.) On the Internet or whatever I’ll fall back on ‘they’ — it’s grammatically imperfect, but it’s the best we have in the English language for when someone’s gender is unspecified mccartney-shrug_01_gif

I respect Ben Shapiro on a lot of points, but his pronoun argument is rubbish. a-hard-days-night-ringo-13 You can acknowledge the biological reality of, say, a trans man being biologically female in some senses whilst also acknowledging him as a man in the social/psychological sense and, if he’s medically transitioned, other biological senses. It’s not black and white. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

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6 April 2019
9.55pm
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Beatlebug
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Also find it ironic that Wigwam assumed QuarryMan was a girl (maybe partly because of Björk in his avatar there?) even though his username is QuarryMan a-hard-days-night-john-6

Which reminds me, @QuarryMan I noticed you referred to me as ‘they’ a while back, why? I’m pretty pronoun-apathetic but I think it’s also been made pretty clear that I’m female (albeit a not very feminine female who occasionally is mistaken for a boy IRL), based on my history around here… so I was just curious. mccartney-shrug_01_gif

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6 April 2019
10.04pm
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Starr Shine?
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They is good though I make mistakes on pronouns.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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