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Philosophy
7 March 2019
6.21pm
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Dark Overlord
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QuarryMan said
The anarchy I believe you're describing would be an extreme form of libertarian capitalism, so no. That would mean every industry could easily be taken over by huge corporations, who would form monopolies through exploiting their workers in the name of efficiency, therefore allowing them to overtake other businesses and control the whole industry. Plus, since there would be no government to regulate them, they could get away with paying starvation wages, allowing horrendous working conditions, proving a poor value service and there would be nothing to stop them polluting the environment further.

This seems more like fascism than anarchy. In an anarchist society, they would want to keep their employees because if they didn't, all of the workers would quit and work for the person who does treat their workers fairly.

I would argue communism has never been tried.

What about the USSR?

Slab City has no electricity, running water, sewers, proper toilets or trash collection service. It's hardly a model society.

But what it also lacks is violence, proving that anarchy can done. I think of it more as a proof of concept then anything else.

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7 March 2019
6.22pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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I support anarchism but in reality there will be people who will abuse the system so it won't work.

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7 March 2019
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I think there's more to a well-functioning and healthy society than a lack of violence. Don't get me wrong, a society without violence would be wonderful, but there are other qualities that are also important to society. A lack of violence, on its own, is not enough.

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7 March 2019
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I agree The Hole Got Fixed, it's certainly flawed but it's the best out of the 4.

Another thing i forgot to mention is that most people have morals and won't do something just because it's legal.

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7 March 2019
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Most people have morals, maybe, but not all. Also a lot of people have very different definitions of what is right and what is wrong. And sometimes good people do bad things.

Maybe in a perfect world it would be the best out of the four, but in reality I think capitalism works better.

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7 March 2019
7.00pm
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50yearslate said
everything Fiddy said

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7 March 2019
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Dark Overlord
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The thing about capitalism and fascism is that they work the same on paper as in reality whereas communism and anarchy have the potential to work differently, depending on how people respond to it. So if i wanted a system i know will work, i'd go for capitalism but anarchy has the potential to be better.

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7 March 2019
7.19pm
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Dark Overlord said
The thing about capitalism and fascism is that they work the same on paper as in reality whereas communism and anarchy have the potential to work differently, depending on how people respond to it.

That's an interesting way to look at it, you may be right. 

So if i wanted a system i know will work, i'd go for capitalism but anarchy has the potential to be better.

  

If everybody was perfect, maybe anarchy would work better, but as I've said, in reality I really don't think it would work very well.

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7 March 2019
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Ron Nasty
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The trouble with anarchism based on people's basic decentness and morality without enforced law and order is that, and the history of civilisation constantly proves this, though as a percentage small in number, there will always be an element in humanity who want control of others.

An anarchist society too quickly becomes a world of do or be done to, eat or be eaten, with those whose basic decentness and morality are held up as a flag to rally around becoming downtrodden under the boots of those who give not a damn for those with a belief that people are mainly good when left to their own devices.

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7 March 2019
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Anarchy is temporary. You'll eventually get people who group up and establish laws no matter what. Anarchy will never work.

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8 March 2019
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I support people going about their business in peace. If that peace is disturbed in a way that is clearly unacceptable it needs to be severely punished.

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9 March 2019
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Ron Nasty said
 

"........ people are mainly good when left to their own devices."

  

I think that's true. 'Bad people exist and they will always look to do evil........But good people left alone will continue to be good......

If you want a good person to do a truly evil thing.....That takes religion!'

9 March 2019
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Dark Overlord said

QuarryMan said

The anarchy I believe you're describing would be an extreme form of libertarian capitalism, so no. That would mean every industry could easily be taken over by huge corporations, who would form monopolies through exploiting their workers in the name of efficiency, therefore allowing them to overtake other businesses and control the whole industry. Plus, since there would be no government to regulate them, they could get away with paying starvation wages, allowing horrendous working conditions, proving a poor value service and there would be nothing to stop them polluting the environment further.

This seems more like fascism than anarchy. In an anarchist society, they would want to keep their employees because if they didn't, all of the workers would quit and work for the person who does treat their workers fairly.

I would argue communism has never been tried.

What about the USSR?

Slab City has no electricity, running water, sewers, proper toilets or trash collection service. It's hardly a model society.

But what it also lacks is violence, proving that anarchy can done. I think of it more as a proof of concept then anything else.

  

It's not fascism, because there would be no state. Fascism is a totalitarian state controlling pretty much every aspect of the people's lives.

The idea that 'workers could just go work somewhere else' is pretty flawed too. It doesn't work like that under the current system, and it wouldn't work like that in an anarchist society. The companies that do treat their workers fairly usually tend to either do so because of regulation forcing them to do so, or because they are a small business with a more personal relationship with their employees, and as we've established, under extreme capitalism, these smaller companies would be wiped out by larger ones who would find it easier to gain monopoly over an industry. If workers could just go find a better job, then nobody would be working for companies like Amazon or Primark. The reality is, people are going to choose poor pay and poor conditions over starving every time, and corporations know that, hence why they get away with it. This problem, as with pretty much every problem with capitalism, would only be made worse without a government to keep them in check. 

As for the USSR, it was only communism in terms of Lenin and later Stalin's interpretation of communism, which was completely different to what Marx actually defined communism as. According to the communist manifesto, after socialism was established, the state (worldwide, not just in one country) would 'wither away', leaving a stateless communist utopia in its place. Also, socialism and by extension communism requires workers control of the means of production, which was absolutely not the case in the USSR, in which the government wasn't democratic and so wasn't controlled by the workers at all. 

Slab City doesn't have violence because it's basically a hippie commune made up of retired people who live further north temporarily to sunny California during the winter months, then moving back home when the weather improves. The only permanent residents get their income from government welfare programmes. Don't make the mistake of thinking it's an accurate subset of society. 

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9 March 2019
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Dark Overlord said
The thing about capitalism and fascism is that they work the same on paper as in reality whereas communism and anarchy have the potential to work differently, depending on how people respond to it. So if i wanted a system i know will work, i'd go for capitalism but anarchy has the potential to be better.

  

You're saying this as though capitalism and anarchy are different things, or opposites. Capitalism is an economic system, as opposed to socialism, whereas anarchism is a system of government (or rather, a lack of system of government), as opposed to authoritarian government. 

What I'm trying to get at is that if we removed the state, then the economy would still be capitalist. The difference is there would be nothing to stop, say, companies disposing of toxic waste in the oceans, or discriminating against workers on the basis of race, or all manner of evil things government regulation currently stops them from doing. 

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9 March 2019
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Dark Overlord
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Good point, it's probably best just to stick with capitalism with a limited government. I guess anarchy is like America banning guns, something that would be nice to have but can never happen because of all the bad people in the world who would abuse it.

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9 March 2019
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Dark Overlord said
Good point, it's probably best just to stick with capitalism with a limited government. I guess anarchy is like America banning guns, something that would be nice to have but can never happen because of all the bad people in the world who would abuse it.

  

That was the opinion in Australia when John Howard banned guns. 

20-odd years later and the attitude has completely changed. You just need to give it time and persevere - say, a massive penalty if caught with a firearm (which raises the problem of planting guns but I'm not a politician with time to spend thinking about that...)

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9 March 2019
5.24pm
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Australia's much smaller and completely surrounded by water whereas America is massive and is connected to Mexico.

As with drugs, if guns became illegal in America, the bad guys would just smuggle them in from Mexico or make their own.

Don't get me wrong, America's gun laws are too lax but banning guns entirely would be no better then having no gun laws at all and no punishment would stop it. Even if there was a mandatory death sentence if you're caught with a firearm, the bad guys would still have guns.

And then there's the scenario of someone breaking into your house with a gun. If guns are illegal and this happens:

1. You run out of your house. This might work, it might not but even if it does, the intruder got away with all your stuff.

2. You defend yourself with a knife. Unless if you're Solid Snake, the robber just laughs at you and blows your brains out.

3. You grab your gun and shoot him. Even if you went out of your way to ensure the shot was non-fatal, you're going to jail for possessing a firearm and will have to endure the ridiculous prison sentence you're suggesting even though it was either you or him.

4. You call the police:

4A. If the police aren't allowed to have guns either, then they're pretty much worthless. They could try using bear mace, but then criminals will start wearing safety goggles.

4B. If the police are allowed to have guns, that's great for this situation but that also means that cops can easily abuse their power since they're the only ones who are allowed to own guns. So if that were the case, police brutality would be rampant.

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9 March 2019
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Yeah, or you buy a gun to prepare for that situation and

1. Keep it in a safe place to prevent accidents, which is great, but if someone breaks into your house with a gun what are the chances you'll have enough time to retrieve it and use it?

2. Keep it by your side at all times, meaning the chances of you or a loved one suffering an injury caused by a misfire/accident with the gun are much higher than the chances of a gunman breaking into your house.

Also, a mandatory death sentence for anyone caught possessing a gun is absolutely ridiculous.

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9 March 2019
6.03pm
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1. Maybe not 100% but certainly enough that it's a good idea.

2. That's why there's the safety lock and if that's not enough, you don't keep the gun loaded but instead keep bullets in your pocket so when it comes time to defend yourself, you quickly insert the bullets.

3. I said that to prove that even the most ridiculous sentences don't turn people away from committing crimes, all they do is ruin people's lives.

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9 March 2019
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I don't buy the idea that a border means Americans have no choice but to resist commonsense gun laws. Many of the countries in the European Union have no active borders and have differing levels of gun laws, some stricter than others. You do not get a large proportion of ordinary citizens bringing firearms across borders to break the restrictions in their own countries, nor is there the general belief in most European countries that there is a right to gun ownership.

There is a choice about the relationship you have with guns as a country.

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