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Philosophy
16 January 2019
9.43am
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Beatlebug
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@QuarryMan uttered
Beatlebug I can't speak for the whole feminist movement or anything, but for me personally, my policy on the 'believe all victims' thing stands as a way of making abuse victims feel they can speak up for themselves without being laughed down or ignored. For so many years problems like rape and sexual harassment were shoved under the rug because people were scared of that very thing happening. If we go with that policy, except where there is little doubt accusations were false (like if someone accused someone else of assaulting them on a night where the accused was in a different country), then we have the best possible chances of exposing this stuff and giving victims the justice they deserve.

Basically, all the problems with modern feminism come down to over-compensation. I don't think there's much doubt the majority of people in the movement's hearts are in the right place, it's just that sometimes the way that is expressed can verge on being problematic in itself.  

I see your point, and I suppose that's how it started for most people. It is a valid way to go about it, if you're in an intimate situation where you have some kind of human bonds of trust with the person who claims to be a victim, e.g. it's a family member or close friend. But when the accused's guilt is assumed, and it's obstructing legal processes, then you've got a problem; and when you're using your profession of solidarity with someone you don't actually know, or know that well, as a political tool, then you've got an even bigger problem. And that's what I feeel like has been happening.

Definitely over-compensation, with a twist of good old-fashioned power playing, if you ask me. Perhaps not necessarily among ordinary everyday people who ascribe to feminism and only want to be accepted by their feminist peer groups, but certainly among politicians who want the support of those groups.

The thing is, these are serious accusations. Not only will it very likely ruin the accused's career, but also call their (because -- yes -- they are not always he's who do this sort of thing) entire character into question, and probably strain a lot of their close relationships. The process to deal with such accusations needs to be fair, not easy -- for either side.

Wigwam spoketh
There should be equality of opportunity regardless of sex or race.

There should be the right to assumed innocence until proven guilt.....regardless of sex or race.

There should be the right of free speech for all ....regardless of sex or race.

john-lennon-salute_gif

And I daresay sexual orientation, ethnic origin, religion, etc.

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18 January 2019
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Dark Overlord
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Wigwam said in another thread
Yes a wall can be climbed, or flown over, dug under or drugs thrown over. No wall can keep out the determined. It's a barrier it buys time and facilitates effective intervention by border security....It would deter ordinary country shoppers.....and hinder the re-crossings of criminals on the run.

But ordinary country shoppers aren't the bad guys, they're just Mexicans looking for a better place to live.

The cartels and gangs are organised and armed and your border security police are often placed in deadly situations. A wall would make their job more manageable and likely a lot safer......Your country has spent I think 3 trillion mitigating the carnage in Afghanistan ....17 years!! The servicemen and women there today were in what you call diapers when it all began.

And i hate that we wasted our time and money fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.

As for the drug cartels, the only way to get rid of them is to legalize drugs.

Doesn't look likely. Schumer, Obama and Clinton were amongst the 23 Democrats who voted for a wall in 2006. They are on video calling for increased border security and bemoaning the dangers faced on your southern borders and the risks to citizens elswhere and the need for an effective immigration system.....But their hate for Trump, trumps all....they can't let Trump have a win.....Whatever the cost to the American people.

I don't care for Obama and hate Hillary even more then i do Trump. Regardless, most Democrats are actually typically moderately right wing so this is something i'd expect from them, true lefties are typically part of the Green party.

But i see what you're saying and i agree, it seems like Trump can find a cure for cancer and people would have a problem with that.

The FFs couldn't foresee how the 1st Amendment could bolster and protect the worst pornography.

Free speech doesn't protect child pornography.

When you say 'most users here' you're talking this forum......?

Yes.

If so then that's to be expected......A natural outcome from a skewed Education system that liberals control and dominate the country as America's thought police.

Our education system certainly is fucked up but it's the feminists who are to blame not the liberals.

Depressing but like the wall the socialism that's polluting young American minds is not my direct problem.........And I don't know why I should care or bother myself about this. But I grew up loving America and what it has given the world ...'Britain with Buttons.'...... I knew what John meant.

I love America too, although i think we can all agree it needs some work.

Your last point......'The best thing said in this discussion' apparently.......It's naive and dangerous to think neighbors will always be at peace. And simply put a country without borders isn't a country.

So i guess you don't consider a good chunk of the countries in Europe to be countries.

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19 January 2019
12.45am
Wigwam
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Can't bring myself to go through all that again ....I'll let it stand.

But your last point......It seems to be news to you that all European countries have borders.

The push to political union in the EU is.......Well 'the force is strong' But apart from the border around the Schengen area which in theory protects that area from those entering ...each country has its own a border. Inhabitants within a Schengen area and those with a visa can pass freely. The UK along with some other EU countries is not in the Schengen agreement......Indeed some non-EU countries are in the Schengen agreement 

But like your States which all have borders and responsibilities that aren't federal all EU countries have borders and political responsibility....Some of which is ceded to Brussels.....Listen why don't you look this all up for yourself...??  

 

Then come back to me with a single country that doesn't have a border.

20 January 2019
3.36pm
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Ahhh Girl
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Ron Nasty said here https://www.beatlesbible.com/f.....1/#p304553

I, personally, don't believe in completely open borders, and agree controls are needed. It's how those controls are exercised though. And, if the scientists are right about climate change and people like Trump are wrong, migration - and how to handle it, is likely to become a bigger question - especially for the younger people here, with Africa becoming increasingly dry and unable to support its population and island nations like Thailand succumbing to rising sea levels, this century could well see the biggest forced population movements this planet has ever seen as inhabited areas of the world, largely poorer areas of the world, become uninhabitable.

Then the question will really be asked... Will those areas of the world less vulnerable to the worst effects of climate change find a way to offer those who have no choice but to leave their homes sanctuary or will walls go up everywhere, machine guns locked and loaded every few hundred metres ready to gun down any who dare approach, as we turn our backs and let millions, possibly billions, die?

But that is probably more a question for the philosophy thread...

What are we going to do about migration due to climate change or migration due to violence, economic opportunities, etc.? What border/immigration controls are needed?

20 January 2019
8.25pm
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'Replace a border wall with a purple night club rope and bouncers'...."You not on the list you don't get in."

 

Even Paul couldn't get in to some rappers party..........

His funny reply was, 'How VIP you gotta be?'......And, 'I need another hit'

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21 January 2019
12.24pm
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Dark Overlord
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In honor of Martin Luther King day, what are your thoughts on the Black Lives Matter movement. Personally, i feel the same way about as i do feminism, i don't associate with the movement but i don't have a problem with it either although POC are more oppressed than women.

Their main source of oppression is the remnants of The New Deal, a racist bill signed in 1933 by FDR. Although this bill ended in 1968, blacks and Hispanics still suffer to this day because of it, often living in shitty ghettos surrounded by gangs while whites and Asians often live in far nicer areas. This leads to POC being more likely to join gangs and participate in gang violence which leads to the stereotype that POC are more threatening which means they are more likely to be arrested, suffer from zero tolerance policies, and be gunned down by police.

Sadly, Black Lives Matter's agenda often ignores things such as drug legalization and a lack of POC in the beauty industry.

On the other hand, sometimes Black Lives Matter does things that don't help further racial equality at all such as segregated graduations and their stance against multiculturalism.

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21 January 2019
12.40pm
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QuarryMan
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Was the New Deal racist? Unless there's some provision of it that I don't know about, I thought it was actually quite beneficial to the black community since it lifted so many people out of poverty which would obviously benefit the disproportionately impoverished black population.

Obviously the US was still institutionally racist at this stage with the Jim Crow laws and whatnot, and there's that well worn point that Hitler shook the hands of black athletes at the 1936 Berlin Olympics while FDR himself did not, but I'd be interested to know if the New Deal legislation contained specifically racist provisions.

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

 

21 January 2019
12.50pm
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21 January 2019
7.22pm
Wigwam
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I think black lives matter.......I have a couple of very black friends......Black as coal and as white as me. We agree on everything that we've ever discussed, politically and philosophically.....And our humour syncs perfectly. They both understand how 'black privilege' works too. I wouldn't have initially spoken to them in the changing room had they been white. I'd have  kept my distance dressed and left. Them being black made me consider that my normal standoffishness would be taken as something more pernicious.  

My mates know that ordinary white people bend over backwards to be friendly and welcoming......They are aware of the power blackness imparts.....That privilege is a two headed coin. They are brothers in their 50s growing up in London and neither could think off the top of their heads of ever suffering from overt racism. 

They understand that most white people they meet for the first time perhaps overcompensate and that perhaps not all the friendliness is genuine.....But they see the good and the bad and don't attach labels based on colour.  

We 'what app' every day.....They come to me for advice sometimes and I go to one of them on occasion.

Humour and patriotism is what bonds us.

It's lovely at my age.

Black lives matter for sure.......so do white ones........

Black lives in the US should matter more than they do to other blacks.

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22 January 2019
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Urgh, now the concept of 'black privilege' is something I can't get on board with. The truth is, people like to play the victim and since reactionary, privileged white people don't have anything real to complain about they invent idiotic concepts like this to justify their identity politics. The left plays identity politics too, but at least for them it's generally in a positive sense, like getting more representation for minorities and breaking the historic government monopoly of white men. Trying to claim that black people somehow have some kind of advantage over everyone else because people are scared of criticising them for fear of being called racist pales in comparison to any substantial issue, like police brutality, disproportional levels of poverty etc. 

And no disrespect to your friends, @Wigwam , but I resent the insinuation that racism isn't a real problem because two people haven't experienced it. I live in the UK too and I've witnessed, if not experienced, racism both casual and explicit many many times. 

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Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

 

22 January 2019
6.06pm
Wigwam
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Are you black?

My friends are...and no disrespect to you but their experience counts more for me than yours.

This concept of 'black privilege' was something they termed and discussed their awareness of it with me.......Though most of our discussions have nothing to do with race-relations... We joke and kid and take the piss. Serious discussions centre round our parenting skills more than anything else because our kids mean so much to us. They both voted leave in the Brexit referendum......Both voted Conservative......mainly because both hate Corbyn.

 Both speak english with the same London accent as me......laugh at the same things......have a positive attitude towards life and personal responsibility.

One is a squash player like myself......He was the first one I met. We got chatting over rackets......He showed me a photo of him with his Thai wife. I said, 'She's lovely but who's that ugly bastard with her?' We've been friends ever since.

His older brother (looks younger) and is into tennis. He was a fine amateur boxer and built like a brick shit house. I'm a decent swimmer and he unintentionally walked into my lane at the club. We clashed, he immediately apologised. I looked up at him said, 'OK don't do it again!" He laughed and then i discovered who his brother was. Of the two he's become the closer friend. 

Discovering we are so alike, apart from age ..(They both call me grandad).......Has been a joy. Perhaps because until then my black mates had been when I was at school........Or people with whom I had a professional relationship with....ie 'clients' or people Ive employed.

We have fun in each other's company, never a cross word.

It's refreshing.....because like you I'd have found their perspectives 'hard to get on board with' had i never met them.

 

When I get tired with all the push back I get on here......Where it's clear I'm considered by many, 'yer' typical old white man, therefore responsible for all the world's ills and none of the benefits that younger generations like yours take for granted. Out of step and nearly out of time......So that even my vote is worth less than others. My...... I consider.... reasoned positions are just poo poohed, or written off...... my arguments bescumbered, or derided.....But never close to being factually defeated......I take solace in two things...

My friendship with two amazing like-minded black friends.......And the seemingly forgotten, or wilfully ignored fact that it is four wonderfully creative white men from my generation that have brought us together.

I think I'll take a little break.

Good luck to you all.

Cheers.

   

22 January 2019
7.14pm
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The Hole Got Fixed
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I couldn't be happier for your friends and yourself. I believe every word of that story. I'm happy they don't experience racism. A shame that my black (and because of where I am, a lot of Asian friends too) friends can't say the same. 

The right wing news companies in Melbourne have been doing this racist coverage the last couple of months claiming there are 'African gangs terrorising Melbourne's west'. I live in Melbourne's west. I've seen one African gang my whole life. They were at the park down the street from me having a picnic. And all my friends agree with me - we can't see why the (and I feel the need to include this for argument's sake) demographically older inner eastern/eastern suburb dwellers don't believe us and keep being racist. Perhaps where you live is a magically racism free country; I wouldn't know, I've never been outside of Australia. But I've certainly read about racism across a lot of news companies from a lot of countries. 

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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22 January 2019
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Beatlebug
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QuarryMan said
Urgh, now the concept of 'black privilege' is something I can't get on board with.

The concept of racial privilege is something I can't get on board with, full stop. I hate identity politics with a passion, especially from the left because it's so prevalent.

@The Hole Got Fixed I've heard about racism in Australia being a problem, especially for Asian and Aboriginal people. (David Bowie did a couple of music videos related to the topic, actually -- under spoiler if you wanna check them out, because I'm doing my best to Bowiewash everyone a-hard-days-night-george-9)

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22 January 2019
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Beatlebug said

@The Hole Got Fixed I've heard about racism in Australia being a problem, especially for Asian and Aboriginal people. (David Bowie did a couple of music videos related to the topic, actually -- under spoiler if you wanna check them out, because I'm doing my best to Bowiewash everyone a-hard-days-night-george-9)


  

I'll check them out when I get a chance. The racism here, prevalent in the country and especially in the outback is unbelievable. The sheer fact that about 10% of Australia voted for a party in the last election that literally only stands because it has one agenda (hatred towards anyone who isn't straight & white (but mainly the people who aren't white...)) is awful... 

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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23 January 2019
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@Wigwam As I said, racism is thankfully not nearly as much of an issue here in the UK as it is in the US, though it still happens. People might not be as upfront about it anymore - using racial slurs, actual laws upholding racism etc - but under the surface there are a million ways for it to prevail without anyone ever saying a word. It can be anything, from police officers disproportionately arresting higher numbers of POC, to employers allowing their own biases to affect who they hire, to banks being less willing to loan money to families of different ethnicities. It's almost always subtle, and it's almost always in a way that could easily be passed of as individual issues. The end result of all this is that ethnic minorities stay in poverty. 

So I guess, my point is that although racism doesn't always rear its ugly head in an explicit or aggressive way, it happens every day without anyone noticing. Your friends experience, which is of course first hand and therefore more valid than mine, is unfortunately one not shared by a great many people of ethnic minorities throughout the western world. 

Also, white (typically heterosexual) bourgeois men aren't to blame for all of the problems prevalent in the west, but given that they have historically had near absolute power over both government and business, it's pretty obvious that the system has been rigged in their favour to the exclusion of everyone else for a long, long time. As a white male myself, I could easily fall down the rabbit hole of believing I'm suddenly the victim because more women get elected or because the gender binary is no longer accepted as a given in the scientific community, but the reality is that my demographic still enjoy privilege not at all proportional to our share of the population. 

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Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

 

24 January 2019
5.37pm
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As I said black lives matters so do white lives....... but black lives should matter more to blacks in the US....And the truth should mean more to us all.

 

24 January 2019
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And........Allow yourself an open mind...... thoughts matter.......Your thoughts not the herd's.

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24 January 2019
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Here's God 's voice.......Speaking his own thoughts...

Shouldn't surprise us as much as it does......Common sense ain't common

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17 February 2019
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Where do you stand on the political compass, i'm in the libertarian left.

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17 February 2019
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Beatlebug
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Funny you should say that, I just took the Political Compass test the other day. I'm in the right-leaning libertarian quadrant.
Screen-Shot-2019-02-16-at-18.18.07.pngImage Enlarger

It's important to note, however, that there were a few questions that I had absolutely no idea about, so I just answered kinda randomly a-hard-days-night-paul-7 so this may not be perfectly accurate. mccartney-shrug_01_gif

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