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Philosophy
12 January 2019
7.17pm
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Dark Overlord
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Since we've talked about feminism, let's flip the tables and talk about the men's rights movement.

Honestly, i think this movement is far worse then feminism. At least with feminism, they're doing it with the best of intent whereas MRA's typically do thing due to a deep seated anger against feminism.

My biggest complaint about it is that they often believe that you shouldn't trust women when they say they have been sexually harassed/assaulted/raped, which is just awful. Don't get me wrong, false rape accusations are a serious problem and you're a horrible person if you lie about being raped but only about 5% of rape accusations are false.

Another problem that i have with the movement is that a lot of them only care about heterosexual alpha males.

If we look at the Proud Boys , a popular men's rights group that could be compared to ANTIFA, they actively encourage gender stereotypes and are against men doing things that are traditionally seen as feminine like expressing their feelings, instead encouraging fighting. They also regularly use the word faggot in an insulting manner.

Still, while i think the movement is ridiculous, i agree with them on several issues. Infant circumcision is wrong, our education system is biased against boys, false rape accusations are a serious problem, the high male suicide rate is a problem, and fathers don't get custody nearly as often as they should.

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12 January 2019
7.44pm
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DO said......"Still, while i think the movement is ridiculous, i agree with them on several issues. Infant circumcision is wrong, our education system is biased against boys, false rape accusations are a serious problem, the high male suicide rate is a problem, and fathers don't get custody nearly as often as they should."

 

Categorically concur with this. At least there's some recognition of these problems now.

I always supported Breast cancer charities.....For decades now ribbons and collection boxes outside and inside supermarkets, spots on daily news programmes, educational documentaries.....screenings at Drs' surgeries.....Money allowances in the NHS....

But I always thought, "well what about diseases just as deadly but particular to males such as prostate cancer? They were never mentioned' I haven't lived in the UK for 11 years things may have changed.

Jokes were always made about this cancer......Dame Edna and her husband 'Norm'. However, it kills more than breast cancer in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/so.....res-reveal

 

I think a lot of causes you can list .....feminist, Equal rights, LGBT,  were based on decent and correct human concerns and injustices. Attempts to right wrongs, and the world, though far from perfect is a better place for more of us. 'Win win'.....You'd have thought.....But.........

The 'Loser loser.'....has been white working class boys and men......A recognition of this is overdue.

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12 January 2019
8.03pm
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Dark Overlord
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Not to mention that men can get breast cancer too.

Still, i wouldn't say that white men are losers. Both men and women have their problems, it's just that society tends to ignore the problems of white men because we've been the winners for centuries and some of our issues were actually created by the patriarchy.

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13 January 2019
5.58am
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Completely agree with you on this, @Dark Overlord , and thank you for somehow expressing exactly how I feel on the topic. 

There's little that annoys me more than a 'man-up' attitude towards men expressing doubt or emotion. Can't we just treat people as human beings rather than endlessly categorising how they can behave based on arbitrary divisions based on birth lottery paul-mccartney-facepalm_gif

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13 January 2019
9.31am
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Dark Overlord
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That man up thing really sucks, especially if you're like me. Despite being a cisgender man, i'm more sensitive then most women and i love expressing my feelings.

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13 January 2019
10.53am
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50yearslate
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Don't you wish it was socially acceptable for people to be themselves? Without having to hide their emotions or their opinions or their sexualities? I wish people would learn to accept each other instead of trying to force to change.

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13 January 2019
12.40pm
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A certain degree of concealment of emotions, opinions, etc. is required to keep the wheels of society in motion, @50yearslate. If we were all dead honest all the time, we wouldn't have too many friends left -- trust me, I was one of those bluntly honest kids whom adults would shake their heads at and hope I grew a brain/mouth filter soon, so I know that tact is a very important thing. a-hard-days-night-john-6 But overall I agree with you, live and let live. As long as you're not hurting anyone else, go do you! a-hard-days-night-paul-5

I have to say that, although I believe in equality (of opportunity -- not outcome), and this includes gender, I've grown increasingly suspicious of the feminist movement of late. They seem to have taken it too far in the other direction compared to the way the bias ran in past generations. It's become radicalised and I don't like radicalisation in general, it's dangerous. And it's not as if they're actually helping anyone -- the lives of women and LGBTQ+ folks in third-world countries still suck, whilst in the first world (which is a pretty good place to be if you're a woman and/or a minority, all things considered -- certainly better than the Middle East, say -- I mean, yes, there are still a few cultural remnants of past issues, but legally speaking it's pretty sweet), so-called 'feminists' make molehills into mountains, blaming others for their misfortunes and complaining about things that, in the grand scheme of things, don't really matter. It's almost as if they should... hmm... woman up? ahdn_george_01 Grow up, I guess. Gender has nothing to do with it.

I have the utmost respect for feminists of times past, who were fighting for equality -- but modern feminists leave a sour taste in my mouth, as their movement seems born of resentment.

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13 January 2019
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@Beatlebug what are some examples of feminists making molehills into mountains in your opinion?

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13 January 2019
6.41pm
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A global study has recently found that men are discriminated against more than women are  in 90+ countries.......Depending on your view some of the 'worst' in this respect were the US, UK and Australia......The figures can certainly be contested in terms of their parameters. But it's an interesting talking point and I certainly have seen in my life increasing an number of advantages given to women at the expense of equally able men.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sc.....women.html

 

For me I first became aware there might be a looming 'problem' in 1974.......A meeting I found myself in at London's County Hall when all of London's leading educationalists were given precise instructions and the resources needed to advantage and therefore raise the achievement of girls and black pupils. Most of us left excited and enthused ready for the task....When one overtly gay Headmaster turned to me and said: 'This will be the death knell for white working class boys' 

The education system was consistently shifted to place emphasis on the way most girls learned best and the environment they flourished best in. When I say girls/boys we're talking a rough 80/20 % split...ie not all girls or all boys follow a consistent psychological pattern for learning....Girls and black boys would receive more resources, advantages and much more encouragement.

In general the syllabus' were designed to add knowledge in a very linear way.....small steps by steps building on each other.......Boys tend to learn in leaps followed by plateaus.........Boys (80/20 split) are not as industrious as girls but they tended to respond better to competition.....But incentives like, 'first 5 to get this done  go out to play first' were forbidden  because girls found this stressful........Even reward stickers were banned in most London schools as competition went out the window.

More emphasis on course work and less pressure placed on one off, 'live or die' exams....More questions with an emphasis on .........empathy, (a female strength) with the characters in literature and history etc.

By the time of my retirement the fruits of this approach could be seen.......I think the last male 'subject' preserve, where boys heavily outnumbered girls success........was geology......You don't have to relate to rocks, (hard to write that into a geology syllabus)........ just bash them and smash them with a hammer.  

Today it seems to me all of the world's problems though none of its wonderful achievements and tremendous creativity are laid at the foot of masculinity ......a word nearly always prefaced nowadays with the word 'toxic'......Masculinity is seen as a problem.

We need femininity.......It civilises us but we need masculinity too.......And masculine men also in touch with their feminine side like the four men that unite us all.

13 January 2019
8.59pm
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I think there's something wrong with that study, considering that it considers Saudi Arabia the most pro-women country in the world despite the country following Sharia law, which treats women as inferior and allows things like FGM and martial rape.

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13 January 2019
9.33pm
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Dark Overlord said
I think there's something wrong with that study, considering that it considers Saudi Arabia the most pro-women country in the world despite the country following Sharia law, which treats women as inferior and allows things like FGM and martial rape.

  

And this is why:

The index is based on three factors: educational opportunities, healthy life expectancy and overall life satisfaction. 

Of course the study is going to find women are better off - life expectancy is almost always better for women, that's called genetics. And for 1/3 of the index to be weighted to life expectancy? That sounds like an anti-feminist created that index to try to make some sort of proof by selecting their own data set. Another 'study' that really shouldn't be made public.

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14 January 2019
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Yes I agree with you both, putting Saudi Arabia at the top of any list other than cruelty to women....Is either dishonest or the unintended consequences of the rather odd parameters....Only the first of the three factors seems relevant.

However, I hadn't thought the two universities concerned would take an anti feminism stance......Far from it. Perhaps the results from the less extreme countries on the list carry more weight. As with all statistically based research careful study is needed....(Example at the end)

 In terms of life expectancy.........."Women waste that advantage stuck on chairs in beauty salons.......(That was a joke Starr Shine)

Of the rest of my post  I've first hand experience........and the evidence is easy to find and compelling.

 

 

Statistics .....

In world War I......they found many soldiers were dying due to shrapnel injuries the head......so they replaced the caps and enforced the wearing of steel helmets.....The number of head injuries doubled.

How can that be?

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14 January 2019
5.21am
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That would explain it, they didn't use legal rights and protections as one of their criteria, instead opting to use life expectancy, which women are always better at except in China where they have that ridiculous 2 (formerly 1) child rule. Had they did this study from a legal perspective, they would've gotten more accurate results.

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14 January 2019
11.46am
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Starr Shine? said
@Beatlebug what are some examples of feminists making molehills into mountains in your opinion?  

Well, they keep going on about 'microaggressions' (which is either people being inconsiderate/impolite/uneducated, feminists being hypersensitive snowflakes, or both*) and 'hate speech' (not a real thing, by the way, not like hate crime is -- it's offensive and socially punishable speech, but it's still free speech and not legally punishable. There's a reason we have this thing called 'manners' -- see my above point about not being totally honest all the time).

An example of feminism gone sour that comes to mind is, during the whole Kavanaugh fiasco, when a movement went around of people saying 'I believe Dr Ford' -- which, I'm not calling her a liar, but I feel like they were doing it as a way to signal that they are better people and more moral than thou, because they are sticking up for the victim (when one could make the argument that Dr Ford was rather in a position of power at that time, being the accuser), and then that extended to feminist types saying that we should 'believe all women' when it comes to claims of sexual assault/violence. That's wrong on multiple levels. First of all, you should never make a blanket statement like that about any group of people -- women are just as capable of lying as anyone else, as was proven quite clearly when one of Dr Ford's corroborating witnesses came forth and confessed that she'd been dishonest with her story. Second of all, it makes it out like women are the only ever victims of such assault, when a fair percentage (a minority, but still not a tiny minority) are men. And this builds on the whole concept of women being oppressed victims all the time, when it's clear that they do wield considerable power, particularly in cases where they are accusing a man of sexual assault/violence. If Dr Ford's and Judge Kavanaugh's roles had been reversed, you'd have heard the feminists (who are supposed to be about equality, remember?) sing a different tune.

I'd say that, on average, men are more physically powerful, whilst women are more emotionally powerful, and in this day and age the advantage seems to run to emotional/psychological power-wielding, rather than physical prowess, as was in past centuries.

In response to all that above about which gender has more advantage: I'd say that it's not as simple as one or the other. In some places (mostly the third world), men have a clear advantage in most areas, legal and societal; in other places (mostly the first world, especially in the education system) there is a slight societal bias towards femininity. So it depends a good deal on the society in which you're raised. And it does seem that, mostly in the Western world, women are encouraged to be strong and yet they can still be in touch with their emotional side -- and somehow they're the victims but yet they don't need protection because that's encouraging patriarchy???, whilst men haven't got a lot of love these days, people trying to punish them for being the dark overlords of history and yet they still can't complain because that's weak and they have to man up, and also they're the powerful ones so why are they complaining? We're still trying to achieve balance, I guess.

*Some things really are microaggressions, such as a woman being repeatedly catcalled by a man or a gay couple constantly getting asked nosy questions about their private life in a way that makes it clear someone wants to treat them like a strange foreign specimen. But getting stared at or repeatedly asked where you're from because you look ethnically different/ambiguous? Believe me, I've been there, and there's nothing microagressive about that on its own -- you can tell when someone's trying to be rude, and 99.999% (I can't actually think of an instance from my own experience) of the time they're just curious. Annoying? After a while, yes, a little bit. But it's no reason to claim holy victimhood and roast your ""aggressors"" on Twitter. Don't you have better things to do? mccartney-shrug_01_gif

/Rant

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Beatlebug said

whilst men haven't got a lot of love these days, people trying to punish them for being the dark overlords of history and yet they still can't complain because that's weak and they have to man up, and also they're the powerful ones so why are they complaining? We're still trying to achieve balance, I guess.

Interesting that's your perspective. As (not quite age-wise but still nonetheless the gender to be a) man, I don't see that problem occur particularly often. Perhaps it's different in Australia, but I would have thought it would be magnified where I am (I live in the most progressive city of Australia, and close to some very hipster/ultra progressive suburbs) compared to America which is (correct me if I'm wrong) less progressive, yet I really don't see many disadvantages here for being a man. 

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14 January 2019
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Depends on where you go in America. Political diversity is a blessing and a curse. 

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14 January 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said

Beatlebug said

whilst men haven't got a lot of love these days, people trying to punish them for being the dark overlords of history and yet they still can't complain because that's weak and they have to man up, and also they're the powerful ones so why are they complaining? We're still trying to achieve balance, I guess.

Interesting that's your perspective. As (not quite age-wise but still nonetheless the gender to be a) man, I don't see that problem occur particularly often. Perhaps it's different in Australia, but I would have thought it would be magnified where I am (I live in the most progressive city of Australia, and close to some very hipster/ultra progressive suburbs) compared to America which is (correct me if I'm wrong) less progressive, yet I really don't see many disadvantages here for being a man.   

@The Hole Got Fixed my apologies, I worded that poorly. I think what I really meant to say is that gender-nonconformity tends to be celebrated more in women than in men -- men who do things that are traditionally seen as feminine* are more likely to be mocked than women doing things that were traditionally seen as men's work. This isn't true in all places all of the time, of course, it's a gross generalisation based on my limited experience.

Sir Walter is also right when he points out that it matters very much where in America you're talking about, it's a huge country with a very diverse culture and the Northeast, West Coast, and metropolitan areas tend to be more progressive than the South or rural areas in general.

*Not that very many men would want to, and I can't blame them, I wouldn't either and I'm not even a man. a-hard-days-night-john-6

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15 January 2019
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@Beatlebug I can't speak for the whole feminist movement or anything, but for me personally, my policy on the 'believe all victims' thing stands as a way of making abuse victims feel they can speak up for themselves without being laughed down or ignored. For so many years problems like rape and sexual harassment were shoved under the rug because people were scared of that very thing happening. If we go with that policy, except where there is little doubt accusations were false (like if someone accused someone else of assaulting them on a night where the accused was in a different country), then we have the best possible chances of exposing this stuff and giving victims the justice they deserve.

Basically, all the problems with modern feminism come down to over-compensation. I don't think there's much doubt the majority of people in the movement's hearts are in the right place, it's just that sometimes the way that is expressed can verge on being problematic in itself.

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15 January 2019
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There should be equality of opportunity regardless of sex or race.

There should be the right to assumed innocence until proven guilt.....regardless of sex or race.

There should be the right of free speech for all ....regardless of sex or race.

 

Fine words....easy to say. As a grouping never been true.........Not true now. 

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