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Philosophy
9 January 2019
4.45am
Wigwam
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Old straight white men are a safe demographic to attack..........Why?

9 January 2019
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Starr Shine?
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See the word choice, attack. Women getting more rights is seen as an attack on men. 

This is because old white men were traditionally the most powerful group in a sociaty but this is changing. The swap in expectations fro the previous top dog in the sociaty must be unsettling for them to have to start sharing the power. 

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9 January 2019
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Starr Shine? said
I don't think condoms are on the same level as tampons imo.  

I'm pro life but want to combat abortion without denying women their right to choose so if there's birth control and condoms in every public bathroom, there'll be less women who want an abortion.

The Hole Got Fixed said
1: what about the people who live 2 hours drive from the nearest public restroom?

Tough one, we'd remove the tampon and birth control/condom tax in addition to stocking public restrooms with these items.

2: equity by definition (unless you're a facist) is better than equality.
Image result for equity equality boxesImage Enlarger

It depends on the situation. I'm more then fine with women getting a spread when competing against a male sports team or other things to level out natural differences but when it comes to forcing people to hire more women or other things to make up for extended periods of oppression (AKA misandry), i prefer equality.

3: this is sounding awfully like that moment on 30 December when this happened:

AppleScruffJunior said
Not to insult you DO but that is such an American response "but my freedom!!!".

Man hears that woman want more freedom. His response: 'but that means my freedom will be impeded on!'
You have to realise DO that in almost all other Western countries that your attitude is far less common, so we can't work out your point of view. In most Western countries, more people are feminist because they don't care about 'my freedom', they care about everyone. That's my take on it, anyway.

My point of view on feminism is that i don't have a problem with feminism, as long as they want equality or equity to level out natural differences and not misandry.

Also, it's not always about what works best for me. For example, because of my mental health issues, i'm allowed to get a free bus pass but i refuse it because i wouldn't be able to get it if i were able bodied and instead choose to walk for 2 hours.

Wigwam said
Old straight white men are a safe demographic to attack..........Why?

I can't find the context of this post so i'm going to assume you're just saying this in general.

It's because of their views, most feminists wouldn't criticize someone like Bernie Sanders who is an old straight white man but doesn't have views feminists deem offensive. On the contrary, there are plenty of feminists who criticize Theresa May and Milo Yiannopoulos despite being a woman and a gay man respectively.

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9 January 2019
7.53am
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Feminism is a strong tradition in my family......My grandmother was a suffragette ...........That's how my Grandfather met her.....She was chained to the railings at the time!!!

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9 January 2019
7.55am
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^Milo is the absolute definition of a troll, he says things just to be provocative without meaning what he's saying (which is what most of the self-described "libertarians" do).

He also supports paedophilia so...

 

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9 January 2019
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Wigwam said
My son's pretty smart....get's it from his mum.
{Snip}

I feel engineering of outcomes is wrong......Equality of opportunity is right.  

Pish posh, you are smart, @Wigwam. You can't convince me otherwise. My mind is made up.

How do we offer equality of opportunity without doing some engineering of outcomes? Wigwam or anyone have thoughts on this?

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9 January 2019
9.58am
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If employers/schools didn't know the gender of their employees/students until after they were hired, then the choices could be made without the influence of gender. But obviously that's unrealistic and probably isn't going to happen.

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9 January 2019
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Dark Overlord said I'm pro life but want to combat abortion without denying women their right to choose so if there's birth control and condoms in every public bathroom, there'll be less women who want an abortion.

That doesn't put them on the same level. You can not have sex to prevent pregnancy. There isn't an easy method to prevent periods.

 

........ said Feminism is a strong tradition in my family......My grandmother was a suffragette ...........That's how my Grandfather met her.....She was chained to the railings at the time!!!

Your point?

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9 January 2019
11.09am
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In my opinion we still haven’t gotten rid of some things that engineer inequality. In my mind the perfect society may be inequal, but never unfair for anybody. And it should be the responsibility of the rich to give back to the underprivileged, but that’s a whole other rabbit hole when you talk about getting people’s money from them. 

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9 January 2019
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Starr Shine? said

There isn't an easy method to prevent periods.

 

You could just hold it in SS? Like pee, you can just hold in the blood until you can obtain a sanitary product**.

 

Also birth control in every bathroom? The only easily accessible ones would be condoms and you can get those at the doctor's for free, if you're in university every student union has a massive bowl of them- go wild. Most of the time women's bathrooms sell condoms for like €1 anyways if you can't easily get them.

 

Pads and tampons shouldn't be taxed and should also be freely available. The problem is if you were just to leave bowls of them everyone, there are always greedy hoggers who would just steal all of the contents for themselves. 

I think we should endorse menstrual cups more, great for the environment, easy to use once you get used to them and saves a lot of money. All homeless women (and women living on the breadline) should be given them. 

 

**Edit 5 hours later: I hope no-one is taking me seriously on this

 

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9 January 2019
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Just because progress has been made, doesn't mean the feminist cause is over yet. 

As for the affirmative action (giving women/minorities extra help in certain areas to combat discrimination that might help them from progressing), equality doesn't necessarily mean justice. For example, in the field of politics, where there have been historically very few women, although women are now allowed to work in those professions legally, it doesn't mean that other factors won't prevent them from moving forward. These can include discrimination from those in charge of the institutions or parties, pressure from parents or society as a whole, or having grown up watching international politics be dominated by male figures. 

In other words, believing that its as simple as stopping the fight at the legal point shows a lack of understanding of the social elements of sexism rather than just the institutional ones. I don't like that affirmative action strategies and the like are necessary, but they're certainly preferable to the alternative as long as they don't get out of hand.

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9 January 2019
1.17pm
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AppleScruffJunior said
^Milo is the absolute definition of a troll, he says things just to be provocative without meaning what he's saying (which is what most of the self-described "libertarians" do).

He also supports paedophilia so...  

I prefer to think of him as a narcissistic asshole.

Also, that's just what the libertarian right does, the libertarian left are much more civil people.

50yearslate said
If employers/schools didn't know the gender of their employees/students until after they were hired, then the choices could be made without the influence of gender. But obviously that's unrealistic and probably isn't going to happen.  

That sounds like a perfect idea, make it so the employer can only see what matters before hiring so no racial and sexual discrimination can happen.

AppleScruffJunior said 
Birth control in every bathroom? The only easily accessible ones would be condoms and you can get those at the doctor's for free, if you're in university every student union has a massive bowl of them- go wild. Most of the time women's bathrooms sell condoms for like €1 anyways if you can't easily get them.

Why not, they're not a danger to children and since condoms can break during intercourse, it's best to take it safe and use both. Not to mention, it would be the epic middle ground between pro lifers and pro choicers since women wouldn't need to get abortions as often.

QuarryMan said
Just because progress has been made, doesn't mean the feminist cause is over yet. 

As for the affirmative action (giving women/minorities extra help in certain areas to combat discrimination that might help them from progressing), equality doesn't necessarily mean justice. For example, in the field of politics, where there have been historically very few women, although women are now allowed to work in those professions legally, it doesn't mean that other factors won't prevent them from moving forward. These can include discrimination from those in charge of the institutions or parties, pressure from parents or society as a whole, or having grown up watching international politics be dominated by male figures. 

In other words, believing that its as simple as stopping the fight at the legal point shows a lack of understanding of the social elements of sexism rather than just the institutional ones. I don't like that affirmative action strategies and the like are necessary, but they're certainly preferable to the alternative as long as they don't get out of hand.  

I agree that women and minorities (as well as white men) are held back by social stigmas and it'd be great to see more women in politics, since it kinda sucks how most of the more sensible politicians are white men whereas most of the female politicians i know (Theresa, Hillary, Palin, etc.) are people i want as far away from the oval office as possible.

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9 January 2019
1.22pm
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Most employers want a face to face interview so while a good idea in theory it is impossible to execute 

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9 January 2019
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Sorry DO I should have explained my free birth control idea in public bathrooms better. You can't just take a birth control pill without having a consultation with your doctor. There are 2 different types of pill and within those types different brands. 

If you take one that doesn't suit your body you could become depressed, moody, gain weight etc. 

There isn't one generic pill, it has to be suited to every individual woman. 

Also, how could you effectively distribute these? It wouldn't just be a single pill, it would have to be a month's supply, and then you always have the danger of someone using similar packaging to the freely-distributed and putting toxic pills in them instead.

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9 January 2019
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In that case, it's probably best not to have birth control in every public bathroom. Still, i'd love for women to have free and easy access to birth control since nothing sucks more then either having to get an abortion or carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term.

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9 January 2019
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The US offers the pill for free or at a v. low cost. Most of Western Europe you get it heavily-subsidised so it's practically free.

In Ireland though, you have to pay €50 for your doctor's appointment, if you don't have a medical card (which most people don't), and then pay approx €25 every 3 months for it (it's not subsidised at all, yay Catholic church). You also have to continuously get your prescription renewed for it as well, which is another €50 every time your prescription runs out. Funnily enough, abortions which have been legal here since the 1st of January this year, are completely free for everyone.

Vice did a good map of how countries treat the pill, and you can really see how much religion controls the right of a woman to do with her body what she wishes.

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9 January 2019
2.21pm
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While as @AppleScruffJunior has explained, birth control in every bathroom bar condoms wouldn't work that well, I think what DO is getting at is that rather than the abortion debate raging on endlessly, we should instead be looking for progressive ways to make sure that women won't need to get abortions in the first place, thereby reducing the amount that happen while not depriving women of their right to choose. 

These could include, but are not limited to:

- Easier distribution of condoms and other contraceptive measures (though not necessarily in bathrooms)

- Better education about contraception, so that people know what they're doing/ don't deny it the chance based on false assumptions about it 

- Better sex education all around, as the amount of misconceptions and mis-expectations many adults (including myself) can have based on confusing, outdated or just straight up bizarre sex education is honestly staggering. 

- More education and clarity on what consensual sex is, and hopefully taking steps to reduce rape or coercion into sex in future.

- Better adoption services and systems, so that women won't be afraid to put their children up for adoption on the expectation of mistreatment or similar. 

- Generally reforming the economic system so that young people aren't in such a dire situation as they are now and are therefore more able to look after a child if they decide to keep it. 

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9 January 2019
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Ahhh Girl said

Pish posh, you are smart, @Wigwam. You can't convince me otherwise. My mind is made up.

How do we offer equality of opportunity without doing some engineering of outcomes? Wigwam or anyone have thoughts on this?  

This may not change your mind......It should though.

 

Even Sweden where this social experiment has been most trialled........Women chose what they like and men what they like.

Women and men are different.

 

Equal opportunity yes..........manufactured outcomes.....please no! 

9 January 2019
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Starr Shine? said

 

........ said Feminism is a strong tradition in my family......My grandmother was a suffragette ...........That's how my Grandfather met her.....She was chained to the railings at the time!!!

Your point?  

It was a joke......

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9 January 2019
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Wigwam said
Old straight white men are a safe demographic to attack..........Why?  

This is something I've seen as well. There's no better reason for this than there is to attack any other demographic, as far as I'm concerned. Thee are people who want to make it out like it's some kind of rectification for unpunished historic crimes, but in realiy, it's not like other groups also did some bad things, and (most importantly) it's HISTORY. It may suck but it happened and now it's in the past. Abusing people just because you assume some sort of association with a group which may or may not have done some bad things a long time ago does not make the victims of long-ago bad things feel any better, and (more importantly) it really doesn't help present-day victims of bad things happening at all either.

Now, if you're an old straight white man who has done something wrong, then by all means face the appropriate punishment -- same with an individual of any other demographic who has done something wrong -- but it's racism/sexism/whateverism/just plain bigotry to drag someone's race/sex/gender/sexuality/taste in music/etc. you get the point into it if it's not relevant.

Just my two cents...

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