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We Can Work It Out - Politics & Philosophy
31 December 2020
5.00pm
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AppleScruffJunior
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Starr Shine? said

AppleScruffJunior said

They've also had problem with side effects with male hormonal contraceptives- lower sex drives, acne, mood swings, fortunately female hormonal contraceptives does none of those things. Am I right?!?

  

yet for some reason, people call women the delicate/weak gender. pattie-boyd_02_gif

  

Yeah but have you ever been kicked in the balls, SS? ?

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31 December 2020
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Starr Shine?
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Ya got me there

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31 December 2020
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Dark Overlord
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Ron Nasty said

Dark Overlord said
What are your thoughts on copyright? I think 50 years seems like a reasonable compromise. This way, people can profit off their work for a long time and the Public Domain gets better works, including The Beatles entire discography (not counting Free As A Bird and Real Love ).

We've had this discussion before, @Dark Overlord, and I couldn't disagree more.

It's easy to question whether those at the top of the tree who have amassed fortunes in the multi-millions still need the royalties rolling in from 50-year-old recordings, but they only account for a tiny percentage of artists who have had success. For many more, who have had some to moderate success, their annual royalty check - and often it amounts to no more than a few thousand, if that - helps them keep their heads above water. Many artists consider their royalties as their pension, and you want to take away their pensions.

Also, why should Paul lose the rights to and income from their work, while someone like Bill Gates keeps the rights to and income from his work?

For those who are living of a one hit wonder they made in the 1960's, it's their fault for not taking personal responsibility by getting a job to ensure that they can continue to earn money after their work enters the public domain (which was 56 years back then, so it's not like they were expecting to own the rights to their work for 95 years).

Also, creativity blossoms from the public domain. Take Disney for example. Despite being the very people behind these copyright extensions, Disney greatly benefited from the public domain whether it be The Three Little Pigs, Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs, Pinocchio, Cinderella, Treasure Island, and many more. Another great example is Night Of The Living Dead, which was immediately placed into the public domain upon release because the distributor forgot to place a copyright indication on the prints. Due to that error, the film has been colorized multiple times, restored in 4K, and even converted to 3D and on top of all that, it's much easier for people to watch then most movies from that era since it can be seen in full in high quality on YouTube.

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31 December 2020
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Little Piggy Dragonguy
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AppleScruffJunior said
They've also had problem with side effects with male hormonal contraceptives- lower sex drives, acne, mood swings, fortunately female hormonal contraceptives does none of those things. Am I right?!?

Yes, it is so fun that women are expected to take pills that make them angry and emotional over nothing. What a nice way to live my life. I love it. 

All living things must abide by the laws of the shape they inhabit 

7 January 2021
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Ron Nasty
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Given the events in Washington yesterday, one has to wonder on what the future holds for the Republicans, and whether we could see the party split. Many traditional Republicans, whichever degree of right they they are on, including Trump supporters, were appalled by what they witnessed.

Trump's son had a line in the rally before the riot about the Republicans no longer being what they have been historically, but how they are now "Trump's Republicans". Trump does this line about how he got 74+ million votes. He didn't. While possible that the majority of those voters voted because Trump was the candidate, there's no doubt that many traditional Republicans - as in 2016 - voted with a heavy heart for the Republican presidential candidate, and regretting it was Trump.

With so many Trump supporters critical of mainstream party, and with the party having to decide how it responds to this, and not looking likely to stand by Trump on the evidence so far, could the party split between the Republicans and the Trumpublicans?

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7 January 2021
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The Hole Got Fixed
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I don't normally post in this thread but I figure I'll make an exception.

I think that the Republicans are damned if they do and damned if they don't - impeach him to prevent him running in 2024, and there will be many die-hard Trumpers who simply won't vote - handing a large victory to the dems. If they don't, Trump will either try to get the nomination for the Republicans - which I'd be surprised if he won it, as there are enough republicans who don't want to go down this path again - or run 3rd party. If he runs 3rd party, we'll see a massive split of the right-wing vote, meaning it would be a democrat landslide - probably winning states like Missouri, South Carolina, Kansas and Indiana, which otherwise are safe red states.

The republicans will know this, and I'm fascinated to see how they handle this.

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7 January 2021
7.18pm
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Starr Shine?
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If Trump was impeached, the hardline would complain but they know how the system works and would still vote republican.

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7 January 2021
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Dark Overlord
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If it weren't for the raid, i think Trump could've became the next Grover Cleveland and won a 2nd non-consecutive term. However, since Trump has embarrassed the GOP by provoking his supporters to storm the capitol building, the only chance they have at winning is either by distancing themselves from Trump as much as possible without outright condemning him or by propping up the Green Party, causing a spoiler effect.

As for impeachment, i don't think that will be necessary, as Trump has pledged a peaceful transition of power and even if he wins the GOP nomination in 2024 (which is unlikely at this point), Joe Biden can easily prove himself to be the law and order candidate and comfortably win re-election.

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8 January 2021
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QuarryMan
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I don't think there's any going back. It's Trump's party now, and if it's not run in the way his supporters like they'll destroy it.

¡No pasarán!

 

8 January 2021
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Vera Chuck and Dave
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impeaching him would mean he can't run in 2024 and he won't get full Secret Service detail

sounds alright to me

8 January 2021
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Dark Overlord
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QuarryMan said
I don't think there's any going back. It's Trump's party now, and if it's not run in the way his supporters like they'll destroy it.

Sure but his base is dwindling, mostly because he's burning bridges with many of his closest supporters like Mike Pence and Ted Cruz but also because a chunk of his base is pissed that he promised a peaceful transition of power.

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9 January 2021
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50yearslate
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Dark Overlord said

QuarryMan said

I don't think there's any going back. It's Trump's party now, and if it's not run in the way his supporters like they'll destroy it.

Sure but his base is dwindling, mostly because he's burning bridges with many of his closest supporters like Mike Pence and Ted Cruz but also because a chunk of his base is pissed that he promised a peaceful transition of power.

  

Did you not read about the whole Wednesday situation? I would hardly call his base "dwindling--" I think "mobilized" would be a better word.

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9 January 2021
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Dark Overlord
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I came to that conclusion from reading articles like this and this but considering that Trump supporters are possibly planning further attacks, this must either be a small minority of Trump's hardcore base or they were just saying this and haven't actually turned on Trump. Still, even if Trump still has his hardcore base, that's ALL he has at this point since your average Republican would rather have someone like Ben Shapiro who's rhetoric won't incite violence.

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10 January 2021
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For those he has lost, he will have gained those who just want to see and cause chaos. 

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

12 January 2021
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Ron Nasty
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The New York Times is reporting that current Senate majority leader, Republican Mitch McConnell, has said he believes President Trump has committed impeachable offenses. If shown to be true, completely changes the prospect of Trump being convicted by the Senate when/if an impeachment trial is held as, if McConnell has broken with him, it gives other Republicans the signal that the GOP are wanting to rid the party of the stain of Trump.

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13 January 2021
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Dark Overlord
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Instead of trying to impeach Trump with only a week left, i think it's instead best to remember what got us Trump in the first place and try to prevent a Trump-like character from ever winning again:

1. NEVER prop up an opponent just because you think they're unelectable. As crazy as it may seem, some Hillary supporters actually WANTED Trump to become the Republican nominee in 2016 because they thought he would lose in a landslide but as we all know, this backfired spectacularly.

2. Don't overdo it on identity politics. If there's one key difference between Hillary and Biden's campaigns, Hillary put a lot of emphasis on the fact that She's A Woman whereas Biden mostly focused on how he's not Trump and how he's going to bring back the America we had under Obama, which helped convince a lot of moderate Republicans to vote for him.

3. Always run on a populist message that emphasizes flaws in our current system and how to fix them. In 2016, Trump and Bernie both did this but Hillary didn't, so Trump was able to appeal to enough disenfranchised Bernie Bros. to flip 3 states that hadn't gone red since the 1980's. In 2020, Biden ran a semi-populist campaign (having an overall populist message of build back better while running away from many populist ideas like universal healthcare and ending the wars), which gave him a narrow victory over Trump.

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14 January 2021
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Ron Nasty
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However, @Dark Overlord, it depends on the populist message, and how much you believe in it.

In 2015 David Cameron ran on a manifesto which included the promise of a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU, believing the UK would not vote to leave; when the referendum was held in 2016, the UK voted to leave, and he resigned since - as a believer in the EU - he did not feel he was the right person to negotiate our exit.

The trouble with populist messages is that they often fall apart because the political leaders involved are unable to meet the promises made. Many states around the world who have elected leaders based on populist messages are often quickly disappointed as they realise the only thing that mattered was the leader getting elected and then spending their time blaming others for why they can't do what they promised.

Impeachment is the right result for Trump as, even if the Senate doesn't convict him, as it could be used to bar him from holding any future public office were the House and the Senate vote to bar him with a two thirds majority vote - meaning it offers two chances to prevent him from standing in 2024.

The only thing you could probably do to stop a figure like Trump arising again in US politics would be to make it compulsory for candidates to publish their tax returns for the last decade, and to continue publishing them throughout their term. His tax returns have been one of the big things he wanted to hide, which makes you think he probably worried over what effect their publication could have.

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15 January 2021
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Vera Chuck and Dave
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Dark Overlord said
1. NEVER prop up an opponent just because you think they're unelectable. As crazy as it may seem, some Hillary supporters actually WANTED Trump to become the Republican nominee in 2016 because they thought he would lose in a landslide but as we all know, this backfired spectacularly.

yeah, this

I remember, as soon as he became the GOP nominee and all the memes and stuff mocking him were happening, I was like "c'mon guys, don't do this, you're only bringing more attention to him doing that"

and sure enough!

15 January 2021
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QuarryMan
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To continue the point about populism, it's worth remembering that many of the state institutions that political parties rely on to achieve change are highly capable of curtailing democratic power, and in many cases arguably designed that way, and as a result populist parties can get into power with a strong mandate to change things but find themselves constrained in terms of what they can actually do. 

¡No pasarán!

 

15 January 2021
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Dark Overlord
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Ron Nasty said
However, @Dark Overlord, it depends on the populist message, and how much you believe in it.

In 2015 David Cameron ran on a manifesto which included the promise of a referendum on the UK's membership of the EU, believing the UK would not vote to leave; when the referendum was held in 2016, the UK voted to leave, and he resigned since - as a believer in the EU - he did not feel he was the right person to negotiate our exit.

I don't think it's fair to compare populism gone wrong with politicians being dishonest to get elected.

The trouble with populist messages is that they often fall apart because the political leaders involved are unable to meet the promises made. Many states around the world who have elected leaders based on populist messages are often quickly disappointed as they realise the only thing that mattered was the leader getting elected and then spending their time blaming others for why they can't do what they promised.

Good point, there needs to be a balance between populism and realism or else people will get really pissed off when you can't achieve your goals. However, it's also important to give people the candidates they want because otherwise, they'll vote for the other guy.

This is exactly what happened in 2016 when populist Bernie lost the nomination to centrist Hillary due to the mainstream media branding Bernie as unelectable (as well as the DNC doing some shady stuff behind the scenes). Of course, Hillary could've retained many of those Bernie Or Bust voters by picking Bernie as her VP but she instead picked Tim Kaine, a centrist senator from Virginia that very few knew about.

Impeachment is the right result for Trump as, even if the Senate doesn't convict him, as it could be used to bar him from holding any future public office were the House and the Senate vote to bar him with a two thirds majority vote - meaning it offers two chances to prevent him from standing in 2024.

After what happened at the Capitol, I think you're average Republican is ready to move on. Trump would struggle to even win the Republican nomination and if he did, he's pretty much guaranteed to lose to Biden (or Kamala if Biden decides not to seek re-election) and if he decides to run 3rd party, the Republican vote would be so split that Biden (or Kamala) would get well over 400 votes.

The only thing you could probably do to stop a figure like Trump arising again in US politics would be to make it compulsory for candidates to publish their tax returns for the last decade, and to continue publishing them throughout their term. His tax returns have been one of the big things he wanted to hide, which makes you think he probably worried over what effect their publication could have.

That might help but you can be far more worse than Trump and still have a perfect tax record.

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