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Pet Peeves
14 May 2021
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AppleScruffJunior
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Ron Nasty said
Inappropriate casting in television and film without any creative argument.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no objection to fictional characters having ethnicity or gender played with in adaptions for the screen. They are fictional characters, the playthings of creatives. When it comes to real historical figures however, you better have a damn good artistic reason to portray them differently to who they were.

That can happen. The film about Bob Dylan, I’m Not There, had Dylan portrayed by six different actors of different ages, races and gender. It was done that way to explore different aspects of his personality and the public perception of him. An artistic exploration of the subject which is legitimate.

But when you cast someone to play a historical figure who differs greatly from the historical figure without reason I object.

There is an upcoming drama series about Anne Boyleyn, second wife of King Henry VIII, on Channel 5 in the UK.

This is Anne Boyleyn:

Anne_boleyn.jpgImage Enlarger

And she is being played by Jodie Turner-Smith:

Anne-Boleyn-played-by-Jodie-Turner-Smith-5995-e1613056319873.jpgImage Enlarger

Now, call me un-PC if you want, but that is total insanity. It turns an historical figure into someone she wasn’t, with no hint that they exploring anything about the personality of Boyleyn by changing her ethnicity.

It just seems they wanted headlines by casting a black actor to play a white role.

I wonder what the reaction would be if someone were to do something with a white actor playing Martin Luther King, Jnr., Ray Charles, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Barack Obama, or Nelson Mandela?

  

The six wives are very in vogue at the mo, largely thanks to the musical Six, which has similar colour-blind casting:

Image Enlarger

Image Enlarger

 

I get where you’re coming from but for some reason I don’t really mind colour-blind casting for not that recent history. Like anything pre-1900’s say I have no issue with casting being a bit more diverse – Hamilton being a great example.

Also, in the grand scheme of things, I imagine that drama will have a lot of historically inaccurate stuff, purely because we don’t have many contemporary sources about Anne in general, they all focused on the king. So, I don’t mind having a black Anne, the show isn’t proclaiming itself to be a documentary.

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15 May 2021
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Something like Six I consider to be a fiction based on a reality, @AppleScruffJunior. I accept that for what it is. Just as I love The Rutles without ever thinking it’s Anthology. This series is being trailed as an historically accurate portrayal of Boyleyn’s last months; her falling out of favour with Henry, her trial, and her execution. However accurate it is to the historical record, the fact that Anne wasn’t black can’t be ignored as a major inaccuracy.

I actually find colour-blind casting more offensive, especially when it comes to real people, the further you go back in history, as it can give the impression that all had the opportunity to have those positions in society, rather than being honest about the discrimination and racism. Colour-blind casting with real people creates a false impression of the past.

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15 May 2021
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If you really want to see a white Boleyn, there must be at least 50 different screen portrayals of her over the years, all I imagine played by white women.

The fact that this particular version of Anne is played by a black woman does not impact the story at all, so long as it’s a good performance, I don’t care who plays the part. Furthermore, I don’t think that anyone who would want to watch a show on Anne Boleyn would think “oh yeah the real AB was a black woman”. 

But thanks for bringing the show to my attention, I wouldn’t have known it was happening otherwise, will definitely record it.

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15 May 2021
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Jodie and Anne are both British and have the same face structer.

 

People put too much stock in skin colors vs other related aspects.

 

Like no one makes a fuss when Rami Malek (an American) played Freddie Mercury.

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15 May 2021
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Both Freddie and Rami are of Middle Eastern descent, so i think Rami was a good pick.

Overall, i side with @Ron Nasty on this one. It’s fine to cast someone with a different skin color if we’re talking about a fictional character like if Kanye West was cast to play Mario but if we’re talking about accurately re-creating a real person (especially a historical figure like Ann Boyleyn), it adds a level of inaccuracy and while i’m sure Jodie Turner-Smith is a great actor and i 100% agree that race shouldn’t be the only factor put into consideration when re-creating a real person, this is the ONLY (and i mean ONLY) occasion where i think someone’s ethnicity should be put into consideration because otherwise, this very obvious historical inaccuracy can distract from what could be an otherwise good film (or in this case, drama).

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15 May 2021
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So all historical dramas should have all white casts then, so that it’s ‘historically’ accurate (I imagine the upcoming drama will have A LOT of fabricated scenes because we just don’t have enough first hand information about Anne Boleyn to make a 3 hour drama out of), but we don’t have issues with these historical inconsistencies? 

 

Taking Hamilton into example again because this is the closest comparison to the show we’re talking about and it’s mainstream enough that everyone is somewhat aware of it.

Image Enlarger

^ Thomas Jefferson

Image Enlarger

^ George Washington

Image Enlarger

^ Elizabeth Schuyler, who was a white woman IRL

 

These characters being played by POC does not at all detract from the show. I look at Hamilton Jefferson and he’s Thomas Jefferson, his appearance doesn’t distract from him being Jefferson. The story of the founding fathers in Hamilton does not revolve around race, so it does not matter who plays those characters so long as they can do the roles justice. 

What you’re saying here @Ron Nasty ” historically accurate portrayal of Boyleyn’s last months; her falling out of favour with Henry, her trial, and her execution. However accurate it is to the historical record, the fact that Anne wasn’t black can’t be ignored as a major inaccuracy.” – can be applied exactly to Hamilton. It’s an historically accurate portrayal of the life and death of Alexander Hamilton, and the founding of the United States, the fact that all of the characters are not played by white men and women does not detract from the story. Similarly to Anne Boleyn, her story is not about race, so it doesn’t matter what race the person is who plays her.

 

Basically, I don’t get what the deal is, if you don’t like it, don’t watch it. 

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15 May 2021
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Not read the discussion so barging in here with no clue and many apologies.

Why is it totally unacceptable for a white actor to play a non-white part but it’s fine the other way around? I know the arguments and I’m not saying that’s my stance or that it’s right or wrong so don’t shout at me, I’m just wondering why. 

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16 May 2021
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If you are trying to be accurate then why would you make any change to the main character? it’s like having a realistic and accurate Beatles biopic where the beatles are portrayed as an indian, a cowboy, a cop and a construction worker.

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16 May 2021
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meanmistermustard said
Not read the discussion so barging in here with no clue and many apologies.

Why is it totally unacceptable for a white actor to play a non-white part but it’s fine the other way around? I know the arguments and I’m not saying that’s my stance or that it’s right or wrong so don’t shout at me, I’m just wondering why. 

  

Of course I’m coming from a white girl perspective on this but I imagine it’s to do with the history of blackface and yellowface in both theatre and screen productions over the past however many years – Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany’s, John Wayne as Genghis Khan etc. (I’m only saying these ones because they are still famous films, there are a lot more recent examples of it from the ’90’s and 00’s but they are TV shows and films, I imagine barely anyone has heard of). Basically white actors stealing roles that would be better suited to POC.

POC are underrepresented as leads in film and TV anyways, often being resigned to the ‘sidekick or villain’ role rather than the protagonist. So, having a role of say a Japanese woman in a book being played by a white woman in the film adaption could be considered as stealing another role from a POC artist (as I imagine there would be actors of Japanese heritage, or wherever, that would be just as, if not more, better suited to the role than the white woman). 

 

If someone writes back to me with “but Anne Boleyn in this is stealing the role from a white woman”, then you’re not understanding the point I’m making and I don’t think you will ever understand.

Also, I hope in future I’ll be seeing a list of pet peeves here of the inevitable inaccuracies/made-up material in this upcoming Anne Boleyn drama, seeing as we’re all very concerned with historical accuracy. 

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Ron Nasty said
Inappropriate casting in television and film without any creative argument.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no objection to fictional characters having ethnicity or gender played with in adaptions for the screen. They are fictional characters, the playthings of creatives. When it comes to real historical figures however, you better have a damn good artistic reason to portray them differently to who they were.

That can happen. The film about Bob Dylan, I’m Not There, had Dylan portrayed by six different actors of different ages, races and gender. It was done that way to explore different aspects of his personality and the public perception of him. An artistic exploration of the subject which is legitimate.

But when you cast someone to play a historical figure who differs greatly from the historical figure without reason I object.

There is an upcoming drama series about Anne Boyleyn, second wife of King Henry VIII, on Channel 5 in the UK.

  

So are you ok with a thin hansome person playing a fat ugly Henry VIII? Cause I say that is more inacurate than having someone with a simaler bone structure/body shape playing Anne

 

300px-After_Hans_Holbein_the_Younger_-_Portrait_of_Henry_VIII_-_Google_Art_Project.jpgImage Enlarger

 

maxresdefault.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Now, call me un-PC if you want, but that is total insanity. It turns an historical figure into someone she wasn’t, with no hint that they exploring anything about the personality of Boyleyn by changing her ethnicity.

Same thing happend with King Henry, Will anything be explored by his new found thinness? Probably not cause skin color is the end all be all. Bone structure, body size, anything else doesn’t matter.

 

People are gonna be diffrent than the main character historlicly. Just because the skin color matches dosen’t mean anything else matches. Jodie does look like Anne in terms of her face.

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I t

AppleScruffJunior said
So all historical dramas should have all white casts then, so that it’s ‘historically’ accurate (I imagine the upcoming drama will have A LOT of fabricated scenes because we just don’t have enough first hand information about Anne Boleyn to make a 3 hour drama out of), but we don’t have issues with these historical inconsistencies? 

 

Taking Hamilton into example again because this is the closest comparison to the show we’re talking about and it’s mainstream enough that everyone is somewhat aware of it.

Image Enlarger

^ Thomas Jefferson

Image Enlarger

^ George Washington

Image Enlarger

^ Elizabeth Schuyler, who was a white woman IRL

 

These characters being played by POC does not at all detract from the show. I look at Hamilton Jefferson and he’s Thomas Jefferson, his appearance doesn’t distract from him being Jefferson. The story of the founding fathers in Hamilton does not revolve around race, so it does not matter who plays those characters so long as they can do the roles justice. 

What you’re saying here @Ron Nasty ” historically accurate portrayal of Boyleyn’s last months; her falling out of favour with Henry, her trial, and her execution. However accurate it is to the historical record, the fact that Anne wasn’t black can’t be ignored as a major inaccuracy.” – can be applied exactly to Hamilton. It’s an historically accurate portrayal of the life and death of Alexander Hamilton, and the founding of the United States, the fact that all of the characters are not played by white men and women does not detract from the story. Similarly to Anne Boleyn, her story is not about race, so it doesn’t matter what race the person is who plays her.

 

Basically, I don’t get what the deal is, if you don’t like it, don’t watch it. 

  

Personally, theatre gets a pass on casting roles and whatnot since it relies a lot more on imagination compared to movies and TV shows. So I don’t think the comparison between Hamilton and the new TV show is that accurate. That being said, I’m quite naive and uninterested when it comes to media politics like this, so don’t try to take my word for it. That, and, I like Daveed, “Splendor and Misery ” was a nice album. 

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16 May 2021
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^ I disagree with that, Cake.

Yes, theatre does require more imagination for scenes such as battles but you don’t need imagination to see the characters, they’re right there in front of you. If a film is being made about Thomas Jefferson, they can’t dig Jefferson up and have real Jefferson play Jefferson. You need a person who is not Jefferson to play Jefferson because real Jefferson is unfortunately not available at the moment. But the person you’re seeing right in front of you *is* Jefferson because you’re told “this is Thomas Jefferson”.

No one complains that Aaron Taylor Johnson in Nowhere Boy doesn’t look like John Lennon . You just accept that that’s who they are because that’s who we’re told they are. I don’t watch any play/film on a historical figure expecting to see a 100% accurate clone of that person on stage/on screen.

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16 May 2021
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Starr Shine? said

Ron Nasty said

Inappropriate casting in television and film without any creative argument.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no objection to fictional characters having ethnicity or gender played with in adaptions for the screen. They are fictional characters, the playthings of creatives. When it comes to real historical figures however, you better have a damn good artistic reason to portray them differently to who they were.

That can happen. The film about Bob Dylan, I’m Not There, had Dylan portrayed by six different actors of different ages, races and gender. It was done that way to explore different aspects of his personality and the public perception of him. An artistic exploration of the subject which is legitimate.

But when you cast someone to play a historical figure who differs greatly from the historical figure without reason I object.

There is an upcoming drama series about Anne Boyleyn, second wife of King Henry VIII, on Channel 5 in the UK.

  

So are you ok with a thin hansome person playing a fat ugly Henry VIII? Cause I say that is more inacurate than having someone with a simaler bone structure/body shape playing Anne

  

Agreed Nessie, WE DEMAND HISTORICAL ACCURACY IN OUR CHARACTERS!

 

Henry being made pretty in every adaption sickens me, he was only hot when he was young! 

 

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AppleScruffJunior said
^ I disagree with that, Cake.

Yes, theatre does require more imagination for scenes such as battles but you don’t need imagination to see the characters, they’re right there in front of you. If a film is being made about Thomas Jefferson, they can’t dig Jefferson up and have real Jefferson play Jefferson. You need a person who is not Jefferson to play Jefferson because real Jefferson is unfortunately not available at the moment. But the person you’re seeing right in front of you *is* Jefferson because you’re told “this is Thomas Jefferson”.

No one complains that Aaron Taylor Johnson in Nowhere Boy doesn’t look like John Lennon . You just accept that that’s who they are because that’s who we’re told they are. I don’t watch any play/film on a historical figure expecting to see a 100% accurate clone of that person on stage/on screen.

  

^ I do complain a lot about those kind of things. Like having John Cusack playing Brian Wilson. paul-mccartney

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Jefferson was a hypocrite racist and rapist. POC portraying him isn’t my issue to have a real stance on. If someone feels comfortable as a black person portraying a figure like that, more power to them. History and stories of minority groups have been erased throughout time, and so taking back these narratives for themselves is important. As a white person i have no right to complain about it

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My five cents on the subject is that, in my opinion the most redundant thing about making non-white/non-male players take on traditionally white/male roles, such as the rumoured black James Bond or the infamous female Ghostbusters, is that it implies that the only way of making cool or insightful minority characters is to make them imitate white people, when the optimal choice would actually be to adapt characters that celebrate the authenticity of other cultures, for instance, casting an Asian lead instead of f*cking Scarlett Johansson in an anime adaptation. Reason why Black Panther being a hit was so inspiring.

On the other hand, Hamilton is a very different thing. Because to me the casting of POC as historical figures was an intentional allegory between the supremacy of the British Empire (King George III famously being one of the few casted as a white actor) upon the American Revolutionaries and Immigrants and minorities living under the oppression of modern issues in the XXI Century, which is the reason why I love it. Race plays a big part in Hamilton and there’s a point behind it. Then again, like SWR said, I’m white too, so it’s really not my fight either.

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meanmistermustard said
Not read the discussion so barging in here with no clue and many apologies.

Why is it totally unacceptable for a white actor to play a non-white part but it’s fine the other way around? I know the arguments and I’m not saying that’s my stance or that it’s right or wrong so don’t shout at me, I’m just wondering why. 

  

“Totally unacceptable” – I would argue that white actors playing non white roles was actually really quite normal until maybe a decade ago. And it has continued to happen since then, only now it’s actually criticised in the media (Ghost In The Shell, The Impossible, Aloha, countless animated series, to name a few examples.)

I see something like Hamilton or Six (or indeed this Anne Boleyn series) with colour blind casting, and it makes me as an audience member question why white actors have been the default for so long. Why should Jodie Turner-Smith be overlooked for this role, if she was the best actor to audition for it?

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Remember John Wayne’s Genghis Khan?ahdn_john_08_gif

whitewash-inc..jpegImage Enlarger

However @kelicopter I do agree with @meanmistermustard that nowadays it is in fact disowned to have white people doing other races, and it is a double-standard that isn’t applying to other races taking over for white people. And I feel like that is the wrong solution, we should just acknowledge that it was wrong but let white people do theirselves same as any other demographic, instead of this revenge method of grabbing people who are white and making them from any color when we now have conceived that it’s wrong to do it the other way around. Unless (as I’ve mentioned) that there’s an artistic merit to it.

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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8 My first thought was Mickey Rooney as Mr Yunioshi in Breakfast At Tiffany’s. *shudders*

 

@Jules and mmm, I just think it’s so recent that this whitewashing has even been questioned, so I’m enjoying these new pieces of media that are mixing up the status quo. You could argue that the casting of this Anne Boleyn series has “artistic merit” too? 

Ron Nasty said
 

 It turns an historical figure into someone she wasn’t, with no hint that they exploring anything about the personality of Boyleyn by changing her ethnicity.

It just seems they wanted headlines by casting a black actor to play a white role.

  

Or maybe you can’t in this case. mccartney-shrug_01_gif

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of days

 

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