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NASA, Moon Landings, Space Race, etc.
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10 January 2018
1.31pm
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Ahhh Girl
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Here's the thread to discuss NASA, Moon Landings, Space Race, etc.

Another discussion on this topic can be found here: https://www.beatlesbible.com/forum/the-songs/50th-anniversary-year-of-the-yellow-submarine-movie-the-white-album-hey-jude-revolution-apollo-8/

If there are other discussions on this topic, send me a links and I will post those in this post also.

Feel free to copy over any of your posts from those other discussions here.

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10 January 2018
9.30pm
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Ron Nasty
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You just have to look where you're posting, @Billy Rhythm.

I accidentally deposited my latest post on the subject here, by accident, while attempting to quote Ron Nasty's post on the previous page with the intention of posting to the new thread...  and now Ron Nasty's, well, feeling rather nasty...:-( 

Rarely nasty, and I hope I wasn't, but I will always ask the unanswered question. How are we to learn anything, or avoid being misled, without questioning opinions? Nothing personal.

I raised many points. I stand by them all. I provided contradictory evidence to yours, the mainstream opinion, and yet you chose to ignore the majority of my points. You even chose to respond in a thread you objected to being used, even though this thread had already been created in response to the issues you raised.

You didn't really address the majority of points I raised, and I would like to see a source on the % you quoted for scientific disbelievers that were involved. I searched and couldn't find one, which would be unusual if the majority opinion disagreed.

The question you still haven't answered; Do the majority of involved scientists support your assertion that we have not traversed the Van Allen belts, and what is your source for that claim.

You hold up scientists who you suggest are telling the truth, and you argue how your evidence can't be refuted.

The majority of my post was questioning the nature of conspiracy theories, but rather than answer the overall question I was addressing, you pluck out a phrase that is out of context without the rest of what I was saying.

You've accused others of diverting attention, of not addressing your points by suggesting they look elsewhere, but I would suggest that you haven't addressed the questions I have raised. You chose to respond with a minor point while ignoring the many major points I made.

And, as an addition, I haven't noticed you being around on the forum lately, and could easily have said "Welcome back" myself without any ulterior motive or intended provocation.

You've picked one little point from my post to argue  in a thread where the mods agreed the subject should be moved from, possibly hoping I would be distracted from your response to my analysis of conspiracy. I thought I had made a considered, objective response. Disappointed that you chose a minor point to disagree with rather than take apart the big things.

Again, I ask the question, do the majority of space scientists believe we have not traversed the Van Allen belts and reached the moon, and if you say that that is the majority opinion now, connect me to one mainstream site or source that show the scientific community are in general agreement that the moon landings were faked. You can't do that.

As I said on this elsewhere, every opinion has an equal and opposite opinion.

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10 January 2018
10.40pm
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I have an answer:

Billy Rhythm said 

Into the Sky with Diamonds said 

Billy Rhythm on the thread devoted to the 50th Anniversary of many exciting events including Apollo 8 launched (pardon the term) into the topic of whether the moon landings were fake. Apollo 8 involved no moon landing, and as such, this topic that fits in nicely here IMO is more of a distraction on the 50th Anniversary thread.

Apollo 8 didn't happen and I wasn't the first to bring up Apollo 11 during that thread...  But to be more specific here...  How did Apollo 8 successfully navigate humans through the Van Allen Belts?  What exactly shielded them from relativistic & ultra-relativistic particles?...:-)   

Nothing shielded them. Just like nothing shields you right now from "relativistic & ultra-relativistic particles": we call them neutrinos, which pass through us and everything on the planet at speeds very close to the speed of light which, you will agree, is quite relativistic and perhaps quite ultra-relativistic. None of us have ever dropped dead or machinery has ever been destroyed by neutrinos and it is equally unlikely that they have any worse effect outside of the planet.

However, if you are talking specifically about alpha beta or gamma particles (you weren't), then there definitely is a risk of radiation outside the Van Allen belts. For the duration of the Apollo missions most of the radiation was managed with shielding that protected the astronauts, with the risk of dangerous doses managed by avoiding major Sun events and keeping the missions short. A longer term solution will have to be found for missions to Mars, I refer you to this helpful essay with references to further information. If you wish to respond to this post, I will expect you to have at least read the essay and some of the references, as a courtesy to the argument and the facts.

edit: And to be super helpful, I checked the reference urls and a few are out of date, so here are updates to them:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090320211732/http://radbelts.gsfc.nasa.gov/outreach/space_radiation.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20120120130800/http://www.space.noa.gr/~anastasi/conf/icrc.pdf

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/

https://www.bnl.gov/nsrl/

Do be aware that the science has progressed since 2009/2010 and the later urls have much helpful information, in fact NASA have been evaluating the Van Allen belts themselves for years and here is where you can find more about that:

https://www.nasa.gov/van-allen-probes

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11 January 2018
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Ron Nasty said
I ask the question, do the majority of space scientists believe we have not traversed the Van Allen belts and reached the moon, and if you say that that is the majority opinion now, connect me to one mainstream site or source that show the scientific community are in general agreement that the moon landings were faked. You can't do that.

You're right about one thing, "You (I) can't do that", and here's why...  Any science done through NASA is highly compartmentalized...  You have one scientist working on one specific area, while another team works on another small detail...  They are given very little to no information as to why they are being asked to tackle a certain task...  They're given a very generous sum of money to do what they're asked to do and must sign a very strict non-disclosure agreement before they even know what they're expected to do...  There is no "scientific community" and no "majority opinion" on anything...  They are in direct competition with each other for highly coveted contracts and not even allowed to share the slightest details of what they're working on between them, unless directed by NASA...  All information is highly sanitized and periodically NASA does release limited data (they especially like pictures that look good in magazines and on TV) just to wet the public's appetite to target more tax dollars being allocated...  None dare speak out against NASA's findings or past follies (such as the Apollo Missions) without serious repercussions...

 

Professor James M. McCanney M.S., who was teaching Physics at Cornell University during the 1970's, was fired from his job for his astounding papers on the electrical nature of the Solar System which are now being vindicated by modern space probe data...  He was effectively blackballed for being far ahead of his time...  You won't find his copyrighted works in libraries or bookstores ANYWHERE...  He had access to mission data at Cornell, a hotspot for space science largely due to Carl Sagan's presence there at the time...  Sagan's job was to interface NASA with the public and promote their unproven, often outdated theories, such as the 'Dirty Snowball Comet Model' that they invented in the 1950's before we had ANY hard data on the nature of comets, without ever questioning them...  (kinda like claiming that you've successfully navigated humans through the Van Allen Belts without knowing much about them at the time other than where they are)  Isn't science supposed to be about investigating numerous possibilities and being open to new discoveries without bias?  In other words, questioning scientific claims instead of simply adopting them and not be afraid to admit that you were in error before new information comes to light...  No, they find ways to explain away why they're still right, even when they know that they're wrong...

 

To answer your question, Ron Nasty, the only "scientific community" that "are in general agreement" about anything are those who are looking to advance their careers and they know all to well how to do that, or how not to do that...  Even Nikola Tesla was put under house arrest in his twilight years for disagreeing with The Powers That Be...  Going against NASA's bidding is met with the same treatment as those who defy the U.S. Military...  NASA IS part of the U.S. Military, it's just given a false "exploration of the cosmos" theatre in order to get funding...  Don't ask me to post sources that could get a Beatles' website shutdown and have unwanted visitors at my doorstep...  Not gonna do that for you Ron Nasty...  sorry...

 

ewe2 said 
I refer you to this helpful essay with references to further information. If you wish to respond to this post, I will expect you to have at least read the essay and some of the references, as a courtesy to the argument and the facts.

 

I skimmed over your required reading here, ewe2 (the other links will have to wait another day), and saw nothing that I hadn't seen before...  Same old rhetoric...  I did find a couple of things interesting, however, starting with the 2010 date of publication and then page 8 which is titled 'Radiation protection solutions'...  Apparently the author forgot to insert the word "possible" before "solutions" for that's all it really covers...  How that relates to the 2010 date?  That should be self-evident for even if it had of said 1968 (Apollo 8) it's pretty clear that they still wouldn't have had adequate protection for humans traversing the Van Allen Belts inside a metallic spacecraft...  He implies that if we were to attempt this feat during low Solar activity that it'd be safer, which is hard to digest...  The areas inside the Van Allen Belts that are not as active are STILL nowhere near safe for humans and the Sun is anything but predictable...  At the turn of this century, circa 2002-2003 while we were supposed to be going through a Solar Minimum, the Earth saw X-Class flares that were nothing like anything in recorded history...  You don't send humans into an extreme radiation environment without adequate shielding and hope that the Sun behaves while you do it!

 

Possible solutions in 2010 for future considerations, sure, but still no explanation as to how multiple Apollo missions from the 1960s/70s (whose flight paths supposedly went directly through the area) with zero human casualties accomplished this...  You'd think that with a safety record like that (one of the crew just passed away and lived to be 87!) that you'd stick with what worked so successfully many years go and allocate your limited resources elsewhere, no?...:-) 

11 January 2018
2.20pm
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I am sorry, @Billy Rhythm, but what an incredibly lame response to the points I raise. So, scientists don't speak out for fear of what NASA might have done to them? Those involved in the Soviet/Russian, European, Chinese and Indian space programmes don't dare question NASA's false claims because of what NASA might do to them? And, of course, you have access to sources that you can't reveal for fear of what NASA would do to the website and you if you revealed what you know!!!!!

Laughing my arse off!!! Sorry, but so fecking funny!!!

What a genius way to get out of defending and explaining the assertions you've put forward! I didn't realise everybody who has ever questioned the moon landings too publicly, and I'd assume that means everybody in the video you linked to, lives in fear of the knock on the door from NASA and the US Government.

The paranoia of the committed conspiracy theorist! They'll be out to get you if you reveal what you know!

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11 January 2018
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@Billy Rhythm I think one of the difficulties we have with this discussion is that we ask you a,b,c, and you respond by going into d,e, f.

This topic you've just brought up about scientists being cowered by a Gestapo-type NASA is whole new dimension in your conspiracy theory, but we can get to that later. (Have you ever worked with any scientist doing work with NASA? I have.)

So how about letting us know your thoughts about the following items:

1) You're very focused on the Van Allen radiation belts. Have you looked at this short video that addresses all your concerns? The Van Allen belts and the Apollo space program  What are the deficiencies of that video?  What about the fact that James Van Allen advocated on behalf of scientists looking for astronauts to take scientific experiments to the moon. You'd think Van Allen would know a thing or two about the Van Allen belts. I again encourage you to read Beattie's book Taking Science to the Moon.

2) The moon landings are now coming on 50 years, and by now many of the astronauts have passed away. How is it that none has left behind a little note saying it was all a hoax?  And do you believe NASA is still paying off the families? Same goes for the hundreds of people working at Mission Control.

3) The space race was a race to the death, and a number of astronauts/cosmonauts in fact did die [You could say that dismissing the moon landings with a wave of the hand is an insult to their memory]. How do you explain that the Soviets didn't cry foul? They too have been fooled by NASA for the last 50 years? Are you aware of the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project of the 70s? A Soviet Soyuz docked with an American Apollo capsule; the Americans and Soviets shook hands in space - the unofficial end to the competition between the two countries.  Do you really think that the Soviets would have cooperated with the Americans if the Moon landings had been a big NASA hoax.

4) Each Apollo mission was followed by the whole world (albeit with diminishing interest): Everyone saw the astronauts get into the Saturn rocket? The Soviets and possibly the Chinese could track the Apollo capsule. Where are you saying the astronauts went during all that time? And how did the astronauts get back into the Command Module before it returned to Earth?

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11 January 2018
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You think Russia would want to disprove the moon landing. They had decades to do so and a vested interest in discrediting the US.

Also, there is more to astronomy than conspiracy theory.

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12 January 2018
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Billy Rhythm said

ewe2 said 
I refer you to this helpful essay with references to further information. If you wish to respond to this post, I will expect you to have at least read the essay and some of the references, as a courtesy to the argument and the facts.

I skimmed over your required reading here, ewe2 (the other links will have to wait another day), and saw nothing that I hadn't seen before...  Same old rhetoric...  I did find a couple of things interesting, however, starting with the 2010 date of publication and then page 8 which is titled 'Radiation protection solutions'...  Apparently the author forgot to insert the word "possible" before "solutions" for that's all it really covers...  How that relates to the 2010 date?  That should be self-evident for even if it had of said 1968 (Apollo 8) it's pretty clear that they still wouldn't have had adequate protection for humans traversing the Van Allen Belts inside a metallic spacecraft...  He implies that if we were to attempt this feat during low Solar activity that it'd be safer, which is hard to digest...  The areas inside the Van Allen Belts that are not as active are STILL nowhere near safe for humans and the Sun is anything but predictable...  At the turn of this century, circa 2002-2003 while we were supposed to be going through a Solar Minimum, the Earth saw X-Class flares that were nothing like anything in recorded history...  You don't send humans into an extreme radiation environment without adequate shielding and hope that the Sun behaves while you do it!

Possible solutions in 2010 for future considerations, sure, but still no explanation as to how multiple Apollo missions from the 1960s/70s (whose flight paths supposedly went directly through the area) with zero human casualties accomplished this...  You'd think that with a safety record like that (one of the crew just passed away and lived to be 87!) that you'd stick with what worked so successfully many years go and allocate your limited resources elsewhere, no?...:-)   

OK, so you couldn't be bothered reading it all and what you did read is clearly above your comprehension, I'm not wasting more time on you. 

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12 January 2018
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I'm willing to hear arguments on both sides. However, did you see the thousands of photos of the moon landing that were recently released? I believe it was called Project Apollo. Here are some of the photos. I personally find it hard to believe that they would go to the trouble of faking literally thousands of photos.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/albums/

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12 January 2018
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ewe2 said

OK, so you couldn't be bothered reading it all and what you did read is clearly above your comprehension, I'm not wasting more time on you.   

It's not that I "couldn't be bothered reading it all", ewe2, I simply didn't have the time to read it all...  I do have a life outside of thebeatlesbible and was actually getting an earful from my other half for taking so long on the computer when I replied...  I do have a rudimentary understanding of celestial mechanics and plasma physics and, as I said, "saw nothing that I hadn't seen before"...  I can appreciate you "not wasting more time" with this because I'm pretty much there myself...  I've provided extensive videos during the original thread with official statements from NASA, interviews with the Astronauts that allegedly successfully traversed the Van Allen Belts (one of them confessed to not even knowing about going through them but changed his story once corrected on it) amongst many examples of doctored NASA pictures & footage...

There's even inculpatory evidence pointing towards NASA orchestrating a disturbing incident in the death of three crewmen aboard the original Apollo mission a year before Apollo 8...  One of the three was Gus Grissom who was, in fact, targeted to be the first to walk on the Moon...  NASA made an example of him to any who dare question or criticize their agenda...  Gus was the real hero here...  I've all ready posted videos outlining what really happened, there's documentation that only his son was able to secure years later and audio from Gus himself before he perished...  I'm not gonna keep posting videos which undeniably expose NASA for the farce that it is when the only response is the continued beating of the "conspiracy theorist" drum...  THAT's the telltale signs of one who lacks "comprehension" of the facts...

Starr Shine? said
You think Russia would want to disprove the moon landing. They had decades to do so and a vested interest in discrediting the US.

This is another popular attempt at debunking, one that doesn't stand up at all...  The Moscow Times publication didn't exist back then (even if it had of I highly doubt that you could've purchased it at your local newsstand), exactly what arena would the Russians be permitted to voice their views?  I mean, if NASA's own media offerings were scripted with smoke and mirrors (see the footage that I provided from Apollo 11's debrief press conference), what chance would a Russian have in getting a candid interview?!  How many of their top-level scientists even spoke English?  There was no internet, no "social media"...  just Television...  a medium which was (still is) strictly controlled and you had nowhere near the myriad of channels that are available today...  How welcome would one from the Soviet Union be received, if they were allowed to even leave in the first place at the height of the Cold War (defection was a real concern with anyone departing back then)?  Let's just say that they were permitted to comment on U.S. Television, what kind of reaction do think their views would've garnered?  I'm thinking that the general consensus of the public would've been "sour grapes"...  You think that broadcasts of the Apollo Parade would've been interrupted with Breaking News that the Russians claim that it's all bologna?  How many people in the U.S. today believe anything that Vladimir Putin has to say?  President Trump, and perhaps a handful of others...

 

The Russians were still miles ahead of the U.S. in the space race and they weren't about to be distracted by NASA's inability to keep up...  The only thing that slowed their development was their sagging economy...  It didn't last long, however, for they had a friend in China who were just as eager as they in furthering their program...  Virtually all of the technology that kickstarted Chinese involvement in the final frontier was Russian, and both of them are still using the same rocketry and developing it as NASA twists in the wind trying to re-invent itself after every State of The Union Address...  They actually HAVE "discredited the U.S." and did it without Hollywood Productions or Media Bashing...  The U.S. is all ready doing a mighty fine job of "discrediting" themselves in this area...  While NASA spends dollars in the seven figure range to develop a pen that'll work in outer space (yes, it requires gravity for ink to flow), Russia & China use a pencil and get on with it...  That's how you further space exploration and they're likely a lot closer to solving the Van Allen Belt problem because of it...:-)

12 January 2018
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To say that Russia would be unable to communicate with people in the US is ridiculous.

And based of the fact that there are people such as yourself who are already inclined to believe that the moon landing was faked, Russia offering proof to the world that it was faked would certainly convince others.

Also that pen can write underwater. Like to see a pencil do that.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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12 January 2018
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Starr Shine? said 

that pen can write underwater. Like to see a pencil do that.  

Oh.. You're one of those who believes that there's water on the moon?...  Never bought into that "conspiracy" myself personally...:-)

12 January 2018
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Yah, cause the moon's the only thing in space, also.

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12 January 2018
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Starr Shine? said
Yah, cause the moon's the only thing in space, also.  

If they'd moved past the Van Allen Belts during the 1960s, when they said that they did, and then set their sights on Europa next which shows all the signs of liquid water beneath its thick icy crust, maybe perhaps one could justify allocating the funds for developing a pen for that mission (there'd likely be a lengthy stay for those astronauts below the surface)...  but when you have many people monitoring your training exercises with audio feeds, where's the justification in wasting your limited resources on such an endeavour?  Yes, this juggernaut of an instrument could be useful beneath an icy crust several miles deep where liquid water exists, but on the Moon where limited amounts of frozen water are scattered about on the poles and deep below the surface?  Absolutely unnecessary...  and any claims that a pencil could contaminate and endanger the mission onboard have been squelched by their continued use in space without any problems...:-) 

12 January 2018
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Cause tech can be for multiple things by multiple organizations.

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12 January 2018
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@Billy Rhythm Well, at least we can both agree that Gus Grissom was a real hero. (He's a central figure in my book, if you don't mind my saying so.) That said, you'd be interested in his wife's book Starfall. She sued the manufacturer of the space capsule he died in. She was most definitely not a favorite at NASA. Still, there's nothing in her book to support any of your contentions about Grissom (or NASA). NASA did suspect that he'd "screwed the pooch" when his Mercury capsule sank to the bottom of the ocean; but they then made him commander of the first Gemini mission and then commander of the first Apollo mission. So just how vindictive was NASA?

As for the Soviets, I think you need to take a deep breath: Really? You think the Soviets had difficulty being heard because there was no internet or social media????? Have you seen what the world map looked like in the 60's and 70's? When a Soviet leader said "jump," millions of people around the world said, "How high?"

By the way, you haven't addressed the few questions I had for you on my first post (post #6 on this thread to be specific).

By the way, coincidentally, the one scientist I know who's worked with NASA has devoted many years (along with his team) to determining to what extent there is/isn't water on the moon.

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12 January 2018
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Why would NASA teach astronauts deep sea diving, it would make no sense to go swimming on another planet unless if it's similar to earth.

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12 January 2018
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The Aquarius habitat and its surroundings provide a convincing analog for space exploration.

It serves as practice. Antarctica is another place for training.

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13 January 2018
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Dark Overlord said
Why would NASA teach astronauts deep sea diving, it would make no sense to go swimming on another planet unless if it's similar to earth.  

It's one of the few ways to simulate the zero gravity environment of space here on Earth, but yeah, a safe assumption that no one's going swimming beyond our atmosphere anytime soon...  "deep sea diving" on Earth helps to gauge how the human body is affected by varying degrees of pressure...  what makes "no sense" is to waste millions on a toy (albeit a useful one) when you all ready have the means to record your observations...  Antarctica, mentioned above, is most useful in training for a Mars mission where temperatures are somewhat comparable to a Martian Spring day or, Europa, for Antarctica contains liquid water below its icy surface as well...:-)

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Apollo 8 astronauts look back

Nice little segment from this morning's TV. The importance of Apollo 8 in Mankind's history has not diminished. (Bill Anders - the astronaut who took the Earth picture) - is the only astronaut from the Apollo program I've ever spoken to.)

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