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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
18 January 2019
3.18pm
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Dark Overlord
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Wigwam said
Yes
some of the worst terror attacks were from home grown children of immigrants and others......But the main problems resulting from unchecked border crossings are crime and drugs carried out by illegal immigrants..... and for some of the least important and least considered American workers, for them their displacement in the work place by cheap unskilled illegals is an enormous problem.

No overpriced wall is going to destroy Mexican drug cartels, they'll just fly a helicopter into a desert or something like that.

I thought most Americans think it should be controlled.

You're right, it's just that most users here are left wing, with quite a few users being far or even hard left.

If however you do believe that, presumably you could make a case against there being any walls at all....Round your home, or Obama's or the White House or around prisons....Or the need for any locked doors for that matter. That personal wealth accrued by enterprise and endeavour should be shared and not protected and that personal safety, crime levels etc should  not be considered an issue worth bothering with.

I'm fine with having borders on private property or between 2 nations that absolutely hate each other (North/South Korea) but for 2 nations at peace i think it's ridiculous to have borders.

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18 January 2019
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Dark Overlord said 

I'm fine with having borders on private property or between 2 nations that absolutely hate each other (North/South Korea) but for 2 nations at peace i think it's ridiculous to have borders.

Best thing I've read this whole debate. Sums it up perfectly 
  

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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18 January 2019
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That's very interesting.....I'd like to know how that figures....Might change my mind.

18 January 2019
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Dark Overlord said

Wigwam said

Yes some of the worst terror attacks were from home grown children of immigrants and others......But the main problems resulting from unchecked border crossings are crime and drugs carried out by illegal immigrants..... and for some of the least important and least considered American workers, for them their displacement in the work place by cheap unskilled illegals is an enormous problem.

No overpriced wall is going to destroy Mexican drug cartels, they'll just fly a helicopter into a desert or something like that.

This is so true, and one of the reasons why I can't stand the idea of a wall. Trump seems to think that a steel or concrete barrier will be completely impassable, or that illegal immigrants will see the wall and think "Oh no, there's no way we could get past that, better give up!" There are so many ways to get past a wall-- fly over it, dig under it, go around it, bust through it. All the wall will really do is waste money.

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18 January 2019
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Dark Overlord said

No overpriced wall is going to destroy Mexican drug cartels, they'll just fly a helicopter into a desert or something like that.

I thought most Americans think it should be controlled.

You're right, it's just that most users here are left wing, with quite a few users being far or even hard left.

I'm fine with having borders on private property or between 2 nations that absolutely hate each other (North/South Korea) but for 2 nations at peace i think it's ridiculous to have borders.

  

Yes a wall can be climbed, or flown over, dug under or drugs thrown over. No wall can keep out the determined. It's a barrier it buys time and facilitates effective intervention by border security....It would deter ordinary country shoppers.....and hinder the re-crossings of criminals on the run.

The whole system is a mess.....Sanctuary cities, catch and release.....easy open unfettered access.....They all combine to act as enticements. ' Rape trees', murder and the profiting of the cartels and coyotes are the result.

The cartels and gangs are organised and armed and your border security police are often placed in deadly situations. A wall would make their job more manageable and likely a lot safer......Your country has spent I think 3 trillion mitigating the carnage in Afghanistan ....17 years!! The servicemen and women there today were in what you call diapers when it all began. 

But there's all this fuss over 5 billion to protect your own tax paying citizens!! I don't get it.

A wall alone won't completely stop the problem.....The House and Senate, Executive and Judicial branches of your system need to co-operate to introduce other measures.

Doesn't look likely. Schumer, Obama and Clinton were amongst the 23 Democrats who voted for a wall in 2006. They are on video calling for increased border security and bemoaning the dangers faced on your southern borders and the risks to citizens elswhere and the need for an effective immigration system.....But their hate for Trump, trumps all....they can't let Trump have a win.....Whatever the cost to the American people.

The Judiciary, notably the 9th circuit is able to frustrate an elected President and effectively override the Executive and the Legislature...Assuming those two could ever agree. The checks and balances of your system are designed to counter the absolute power of any one branch...(Ironically that's the role of Britain's sovereign......She wields very little power but she denies power to others)....The result of checks and balances is often a log-jam.....But it's mostly proved effective over the last 200 or so years...And works it way now, if we take the current FBI and CIA out of the equation.

I look at the US and I see it falling apart.......American exceptionalism has, since the early beginnings in the 'City of Brotherly love' Philadelphia's meaning in Greek. Hume and Lock and the Founding Fathers......And a written constitution....that Madison cribbed from the British Bill of Rights and elsewhere but cobbled together with a purpose and has produced a country that, 'sailed the moon'....Leading to a Constitution that these days any Harvard lawyer worth his salt can twist to his own purposes. The FFs  couldn't foresee how the 1st Amendment could bolster and protect the worst pornography.....And the 2nd Amendment lead to such carnage.   

When you say 'most users here' you're talking this forum......?

If so then that's to be expected......A natural outcome from a skewed Education system that liberals control and dominate the country as America's thought police.

Depressing but like the wall the socialism that's polluting young American minds is not my direct problem.........And I don't know why I should care or bother myself about this. But I grew up loving America and what it has given the world ...'Britain with Buttons.'...... I knew what John meant. 

Your last point......'The best thing said in this discussion' apparently.......   It's naive and dangerous to think neighbours will always be at peace. And simply put a country without borders isn't a country. 

Listen...... I wish you well Dark Overlord.....So I hope your wishes in respect to this civilised discussion we've indulged in..... don't come true.

Cheers M8

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18 January 2019
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@Wigwam said
  

When you say 'most users here' you're talking this forum......?

If so then that's to be expected......A natural outcome from a skewed Education system that liberals control and dominate the country as America's thought police.

Depressing but like the wall the socialism that's polluting young American minds is not my direct problem.........

Not gonna argue with your point about the education system (as one of the relatively few non-left-leaning members) but I wouldn't say most of the users here (on this forum) are American. Perhaps a slight majority but plenty are British and we've several prominent Aussies. It's not just the US's education system...

Also what is your problem with ellipses.....................? a-hard-days-night-john-6

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18 January 2019
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I'm sorry Wigwam but I just don't agree.

Wigwam said 

Yes a wall can be climbed, or flown over, dug under or drugs thrown over. No wall can keep out the determined.

Exactly.

But there's all this fuss over 5 billion to protect your own tax paying citizens!! I don't get it.

Tax-paying citizens don't want to see five billion dollars of their hard-earned money wasted. Besides, the US is in enough debt already without paying 5 billion for an arbitrary chunk of concrete. 

If so then that's to be expected......A natural outcome from a skewed Education system that liberals control and dominate the country as America's thought police.

In some places maybe, but there are plenty of non-liberal people in the country, including the man who runs it.

Depressing but like the wall the socialism that's polluting young American minds is not my direct problem.........

I'm a bit confused at what you mean by that... 

Your last point......'The best thing said in this discussion' apparently.......   It's naive and dangerous to think neighbours will always be at peace. And simply put a country without borders isn't a country. 

Nobody's assuming that Mexico and the US will always be at peace, but then again, nobody's trying to build a wall on the Canadian border. If Mexico and the US ever do engage in violent conflict, I don't see how a wall between the countries is going to help anything.

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18 January 2019
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@50yearslate said

In some places maybe, but there are plenty of non-liberal people in the country, including the man who runs it.

The President does not single-handedly run the country: that's not how it works. Sorry to possibly be pedantic, but your poor word choice bothers me. This country has been going to the liberals for years -- coming out as conservative is scarier than coming out as gay in many places, mostly urban centers and mainstream media.

Depressing but like the wall the socialism that's polluting young American minds is not my direct problem.........

I'm a bit confused at what you mean by that... 

Well, Wigwam isn't American, so it the socialism that is polluting young American minds is not his direct problem.

Nobody's assuming that Mexico and the US will always be at peace, but then again, nobody's trying to build a wall on the Canadian border. If Mexico and the US ever do engage in violent conflict, I don't see how a wall between the countries is going to help anything.  

Aaaand we don't have people scrambling into America through the US-Canadian border, either. mccartney-shrug_01_gif

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18 January 2019
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Beatlebug said

@50yearslate said

In some places maybe, but there are plenty of non-liberal people in the country, including the man who runs it.

The President does not single-handedly run the country: that's not how it works. Sorry to possibly be pedantic, but your poor word choice bothers me. This country has been going to the liberals for years -- coming out as conservative is scarier than coming out as gay in many places, mostly urban centers and mainstream media.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean it that way. You're right, I should have chosen my words more carefully. 

Depressing but like the wall the socialism that's polluting young American minds is not my direct problem.........

I'm a bit confused at what you mean by that... 

Well, Wigwam isn't American, so it the socialism that is polluting young American minds is not his direct problem.

Not quite what I was asking about-- I was curious what Wigwam meant by "the socialism that's polluting young American minds." 

Nobody's assuming that Mexico and the US will always be at peace, but then again, nobody's trying to build a wall on the Canadian border. If Mexico and the US ever do engage in violent conflict, I don't see how a wall between the countries is going to help anything.  

Aaaand we don't have people scrambling into America through the US-Canadian border, either. mccartney-shrug_01_gif

  

I understand that, I was just trying to say that the possibility that two countries will not always be at peace, on its own, is not a good reason to build a wall between them. 

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18 January 2019
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Dark Overlord said

I thought most Americans think it should be controlled.

You're right, it's just that most users here are left wing, with quite a few users being far or even hard left.

(^true -- I think it might be a slight majority of Americans but like half the people in this conversation are Brits or Aussies)

50yearslate said
Not quite what I was asking about-- I was curious what Wigwam meant by "the socialism that's polluting young American minds."

I suspected as much, I was just taking the piss a little bit.

There's ample evidence to the effect that many young Americans* think socialism is a good idea (I am not one of them, because it simply isn't) and leftist ideology is classroom dogma in many places, especially higher ed institutions. A disproportionate number of college professors are left-leaning. And don't even get me started on the mainstream media -- I'll start sounding like a gun-toting MAGA-hat-wearing Trump supporter**, but it's true -- they've gone to the dogs.

*

not

https://youtu.be/iO6OvHxD_m8

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18 January 2019
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50yearslate said
I'm sorry Wigwam but I just don't agree.

Wigwam said 

Yes a wall can be climbed, or flown over, dug under or drugs thrown over. No wall can keep out the determined.

Exactly.

But there's all this fuss over 5 billion to protect your own tax paying citizens!! I don't get it.

Tax-paying citizens don't want to see five billion dollars of their hard-earned money wasted. Besides, the US is in enough debt already without paying 5 billion for an arbitrary chunk of concrete. 

If so then that's to be expected......A natural outcome from a skewed Education system that liberals control and dominate the country as America's thought police.

In some places maybe, but there are plenty of non-liberal people in the country, including the man who runs it.

Depressing but like the wall the socialism that's polluting young American minds is not my direct problem.........

I'm a bit confused at what you mean by that... 

Your last point......'The best thing said in this discussion' apparently.......   It's naive and dangerous to think neighbours will always be at peace. And simply put a country without borders isn't a country. 

Nobody's assuming that Mexico and the US will always be at peace, but then again, nobody's trying to build a wall on the Canadian border. If Mexico and the US ever do engage in violent conflict, I don't see how a wall between the countries is going to help anything.

  

Your 'Exactly' doesn't address what I went on to say...... .exactly.....I hope others will read what I said in total and judge my argument for themselves in that way.

As to a waste of taxpayers money I agree no one wants waste....but part of many American's argument for the wall is that they see their tax dollars being wasted by the costs of illegal immigration....... health care, legal counsel, education....housing...social care etc.

 

Beatlebug helpfully explained why I mentioned it's not my direct problem....Not a being US citizen and I'll add  too old to witness how this will all pan out. I wonder why I worry?

The USA has been at war with Mexico.....And Germany had plans for Mexico during the first world war., that a competitor like China might replicate in the distant future ....But I agree a conflict between Mexico and the US seems highly unlikely, a wall wouldn't help if there was.......

A border need only be a simple line in the sand that you will make clear to another armed state that you will defend. But the US isn't about to ever machine gun or even incarcerate those 'individuals' that treat it's borders with contempt. The opposite is the currently the case. But that kindness kills

For country shoppers marching through the Americas some via Bangladesh, Dubai, and  Brazil a hard border to funnel and hinder crossings and a more robust legal system is all of most of what is needed. 

Rather than just critique my blatherings  ...Tell us openly what it is exactly you'd like to see. 

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Socialism....'Polluting young minds'........Could say, 'old ones too'. I accept that 'polluting' is an emotive and provocative word that I perhaps shouldn't have used. 

I've come to see socialism as corrupting......Others I accept see it as being very much the opposite.

An argument for another day.........(that will get nowhere).

As for 'ellipsis'?

It may be that when I write physically I often join words together...... Old habits die Hard....... (as Jagger said).....Wasn't it the code word in Daniel Craig's first Bond film too?

Now that was the best Bond film ever.......(Another argument I fear).

Cheers and thank you everyone that has contributed.  

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Goldfinger and From Russia With Love are my two favorites. Casino Royale slides into third. Although Timothy Dalton is probably my favorite Bond of them all. Great villians in those movies as well. 

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18 January 2019
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Is it just me or are there three extremely intricate political discussions happening in three threads simultaneously?

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18 January 2019
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sir walter raleigh said
Is it just me or are there three extremely intricate political discussions happening in three threads simultaneously?

  

*panics* Ringo for president? *remembers ringo is not american* ringo for king? *remembers ringo is a knight* ringo for knight re-election?

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19 January 2019
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sir walter raleigh said
Goldfinger and From Russia With Love are my two favorites. Casino Royale slides into third. Although Timothy Dalton is probably my favorite Bond of them all. Great villians in those movies as well. 

  

'Rush hour' With Love was always my first choice until Casino Royal........Certainly it's my favourite Book in the series...

Did you know Bond dies in the book? Rosa Klebb, (the name is the Russian translation for the international socialist slogan, 'Roses and Bread') actually kills Bond with her poison tipped bladed shoes......That was it for 007..

Until JFK said Russia with Love was his favourite book the sales soared so Fleming brought him back in Dr No.  

Goldfinger, brilliant too but the last few scenes seem rushed and cheap to me.

I liked Dalton when he came along too but now rate him third after Craig and Connery.

Just opinion.

By-the-way something that links with other discussions here, (border Wall)  is Bond's  007 designation. How?

Well we all know it denotes a licence to kill of course but Fleming chose it because of 'The Zimmerman Telegram' which was numbered 0075. Busting the German code and being able to read the contents of that telegram represented the greatest achievement of British Intelligence. The coded Telegram was  sent from German Foreign Minister Zimmerman to bring Mexico into the first World War as an ally of Germany against the US. As a reward Germany was going to give Mexico back, Texas, Arizona and new Mexico......The British handed over this information to the US. The US were rightly pissed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....n_Telegram

 

Anyway to cheer us up......

 

https://youtu.be/hYeFcSq7Mxg

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Ugh so much stuff I disagree with above. If I can be bothered I'll write a big long post tomorrow as I don't have time now...

but in the philosophy thread because guys we sooooooooooö need to stay on topic!!! Thoughts on the wall and James Bond aren't suited for this thread!!!stay-on-topicstay-on-topic

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The Hole Got Fixed said
Ugh so much stuff I disagree with above. If I can be bothered I'll write a big long post tomorrow as I don't have time now...

but in the philosophy thread because guys we sooooooooooö need to stay on topic!!! Thoughts on the wall and James Bond aren't suited for this thread!!!stay-on-topicstay-on-topic

  

Look forward on your thoughts especially as to why discussing the 'border wall' in the 'current news' thread is soooooooo off topic And how any discussion of  it will be better suited to the philosophy thread. It might be that the subject of 'current news' can sometimes be applicable to both threads.....Now there's a thought!

Hope you can be bothered. Seriously I'd be interested, the more views the better. I always listen to other people with the hope if not the expectation that I will learn something.

(I accept Bond's a big stretch......... though there is a crafty linkage you may have missed even there......).

Regards

19 January 2019
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Wigwam said
Look forward on your thoughts especially as to why discussing the 'border wall' in the 'current news' thread is soooooooo off topic And how any discussion of  it will be better suited to the philosophy thread. It might be that the subject of 'current news' can sometimes be applicable to both threads.....Now there's a thought!

It got political after a few posts and I thought the Philosophy thread was created for that. I'm happy to post here if it's not deemed off-topic.

Hope you can be bothered. Seriously I'd be interested, the more views the better. I always listen to other people with the hope if not the expectation that I will learn something.

Ok, I will, just for you (and I hope you get something out of my post). Someone please @ me in this thread to remind me.

(I accept Bond's a big stretch......... though there is a crafty linkage you may have missed even there......).

a-hard-days-night-george-10Yeah I saw the link but I'm not certain it belongs here... but mccartney-shrug_01_gifit's not really going to make me lose any sleep...

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I have no problem with the conversation happening in this thread being here. 

I will admit I thought i had reopened this thread last night instead of the Philosophy thread because the conversations are so similar. I chalk it up to the medicine fog I was in last night. Blasted cold.

If, as some people suggest, the wall isn't going to keep out anybody who wants to come here, then let's just go ahead and get it built and over with. Federal workers can get back to work, and those who want to get here illegally for whatever reason can get to figuring out how they're going to do it. 

Building the wall will probably just cause the drug smugglers just spread their operations out more and land on shores on the Gulf of Mexico. I guess that would mean more jobs in the Border enforcement agency because they have to cover more ground. Anybody looking for a job?

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